Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
What do you think about impact of the phrase 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' ?
Replies
-
There are 3 keys to success, IMO.
1. Natural talent
2. Dedication (to put in the work)
3. Resources.
No amount of the second will make much difference if you don't have the first and third...
That said, the phrase as it is used IMO (to get kids to dream big) is ok. Kinda like "You can do anything as long as you put your mind to it..."
As you grow older you learn your strengths and weaknesses. What you have a talent for and what is realistically out of your reach. As I see it, the phrase gets you to try everything (within reason) and see what you as an individual gravitate towards...9 -
1. As the phrase 'nothing is impossible if you work hard enough' is not literally true (we wouldn't tell someone who is blind that they could see if they worked hard enough, for example), what do you assume the 'real' meaning of this phrase usually is? And I'd use this for variations of this idea, too - 'you can do anything if you put your mind to it,' 'all you need is hard work in order to succeed in life,' and so on.
So...what does this phrase mean to you?
2. When you hear phrases like this used, is the general tone positive or negative, or somewhere in between?
Like, positive might be encouraging someone who is feeling like they will never meet their health goals, and reminding them that they are working hard so they are going to see results. Negative might be shaming someone who hadn't met their goals, implying that they would be doing better if they had been working harder.
3. Based on how you hear it being used most often, do you think this phrase promotes a certain type of attitude among people who exercise, and if so, is it a good one?
With apologies to OP: I think - despite all the ensuing discussion (or because of it?
) - that these are not very useful questions.
Any phrase, including cliches or platitudes, has meaning in a context. Context includes who's saying it, to whom, in what tone of voice, embedded among what other words and ideas, and more. Absent that, such a phrase is a meaningless abstraction. Without a context, it doesn't communicate - I think this last is particularly the case for cliches or platitudes.
Much of the ensuing discussion involves folks assuming a context, then debating bits of those assumptions.
I think this might be a good place to drop something some of you have seen here before, a quote I hand-lettered into my visual journal (and which will sadly probably show up as a link rather than an inline image because I'm having trouble with that lately (sigh)).
3 -
Okay, so do you think Daniel Ruetigger could have been a professional NFL player if he worked harder than he already did to just make an "appearance" on the Notre Dame football team?WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Whoa, I never called anyone a lazy quitter. If someone took personal offense to that comment in the context it was used, that's telling for them.
The phrase isn't "Nothing is impossible if you want it hard enough."
I'm not disputing that some things are no longer possible for individuals. But it's likely they were or could have been, if the effort was truly made.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect to be in the minority on this one. That's a perfectly positive phrase and I've found it to be mostly true. The other variant I've heard once was "If someone REALLY wants to do something, that person is going to do it REALLY well." I'm not sure if intelligence, dedication, and strong work ethic counts as 'privilege.'
You look young and healthy.
That might be why you think anything is possible.
That's also a privileged position, whether you realize it or not.
No matter how badly I want it, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to lunge to full depth or squat ATG, for example. I'm older with two forms of arthritis, and my joints will only take me so far.
Now I have gone from walking with a cane to running, so while *that* was possible, I don't think ANYTHING is possible. In fact, I know it isn't.
Mind you, I'm not pulling some victimized thing here. I just know that I have limits due to a medical condition. That's facing reality. I'm not bitter or anything like that.
I just don't like trite, pat little sayings like this. There are lots of things people face. I think the important thing is to do your best, whatever your circumstances are. I may not be able to do everything, but I'm doing far more than I ever thought I could, and I think that's pretty damned awesome enough.
Indeed. We don't have control over a great many things. Winning, losing, genetic, medical conditions etc. What we do have control over is the effort we put forth in achieving our goals, whatever they may be. As long as you give it your absolute best (and deep down we know wether or not we do) you can hold your head up high and be content with who you are at this moment...
This is a really good perspective.
I like the Steve Prefontaine quote, " To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift."2 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Oh c'mon, that's just hurtful implying that you're wasting time getting interested in this particular facet of the discussion.
nah. i just don't want to get dragged sideways into the whole morass of testimony-and-dismissal. ime, it's a power-trip on one side and a huge emo-drain on the other, and i do think it's a waste of time.'bench-pressing 300lbs' and 'being really good at pressing 185' are different things.
absolutely. if there was a point in here though, i've lost track of it.I don't want to seem like I'm disregarding the effort people are putting forth
that is exactly the way that you seem. deal with that info or keep putting all the responsibility for it back onto the hearers; that's up to you. it is still exactly the way that you seem.but I'm also doubtful that many actually put in the kind of single-minded tenacity, focus, zealotry, and sacrifice that can be required to meet the definition of "hard enough."
actually, the message i got was that you were defining 'hard enough' entirely by the outcome, not by intangibles. 'if they didn't get to [impossible], yes i would say they did not get there because they did not work hard enough.' that's a paraphrase, but i think it's a fair one.
i'm not sure if you just won't accept that people can and do break their hearts in pursuit of things that are just never going to happen, or if you feel like the heartbreak is justified because they would never have done anything at all without that mistaken belief . . . or if you feel like it's perfectly fair because if they had just broken their hearts a little bit harder than that it all would have worked out.I'm not sure if anyone is trying to use the common saying to control the masses or anything.
i think this was a reference to the various people (not just you, but definitely including you) who seem sincerfely to think the original cliche is necessary in order for anyone to achieve anything. 'sure it's untrue if you take it literally, but we should still push it because if people admit/realise they can't X they've already just given up.' that kind of thing.to the point that I believe that true motivation can ONLY come from within.
fair enough. maybe the dichotomy is between people like me who find realism a strong basis for any motivation and people like you who almost seem ideologically threatened by the idea.If John Doe in Nebraska doesn't strive to reach his goals, that's no skin off my back.
lol. yeah, except you'd like to think john doe doesn't have any goals and john doe will never achieve much in life unless he approaches his life like you do.2 -
canadianlbs wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Oh c'mon, that's just hurtful implying that you're wasting time getting interested in this particular facet of the discussion.
nah. i just don't want to get dragged sideways into the whole morass of testimony-and-dismissal. ime, it's a power-trip on one side and a huge emo-drain on the other, and i do think it's a waste of time.'bench-pressing 300lbs' and 'being really good at pressing 185' are different things.
absolutely. if there was a point in here though, i've lost track of it.I don't want to seem like I'm disregarding the effort people are putting forth
that is exactly the way that you seem. deal with that info or keep putting all the responsibility for it back onto the hearers; that's up to you. it is still exactly the way that you seem.but I'm also doubtful that many actually put in the kind of single-minded tenacity, focus, zealotry, and sacrifice that can be required to meet the definition of "hard enough."
actually, the message i got was that you were defining 'hard enough' entirely by the outcome, not by intangibles. 'if they didn't get to [impossible], yes i would say they did not get there because they did not work hard enough.' that's a paraphrase, but i think it's a fair one.
i'm not sure if you just won't accept that people can and do break their hearts in pursuit of things that are just never going to happen, or if you feel like the heartbreak is justified because they would never have done anything at all without that mistaken belief . . . or if you feel like it's perfectly fair because if they had just broken their hearts a little bit harder than that it all would have worked out.I'm not sure if anyone is trying to use the common saying to control the masses or anything.
i think this was a reference to the various people (not just you, but definitely including you) who seem sincerfely to think the original cliche is necessary in order for anyone to achieve anything. 'sure it's untrue if you take it literally, but we should still push it because if people admit/realise they can't X they've already just given up.' that kind of thing.to the point that I believe that true motivation can ONLY come from within.
fair enough. maybe the dichotomy is between people like me who find realism a strong basis for any motivation and people like you who almost seem ideologically threatened by the idea.If John Doe in Nebraska doesn't strive to reach his goals, that's no skin off my back.
lol. yeah, except you'd like to think john doe doesn't have any goals and john doe will never achieve much in life unless he approaches his life like you do.
Have I done something to personally offend you? You're putting words in my mouth and your tone comes off as aggressive.
Hard enough IS defined by the outcome. That's pretty much the entire purpose of the word 'enough' being there.5 -
Okay, so do you think Daniel Ruetigger could have been a professional NFL player if he worked harder than he already did to just make an "appearance" on the Notre Dame football team?WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Whoa, I never called anyone a lazy quitter. If someone took personal offense to that comment in the context it was used, that's telling for them.
The phrase isn't "Nothing is impossible if you want it hard enough."
I'm not disputing that some things are no longer possible for individuals. But it's likely they were or could have been, if the effort was truly made.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. Rudy!
I don't know anything about Rudy other than that he was a hobbit. Did he want to be an NFL player? It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but I thought it was just his dream to play for Notre Dame, which he did.1 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Hard enough IS defined by the outcome. That's pretty much the entire purpose of the word 'enough' being there.
That is an interesting take on that phrase, partly because I am sure you don't mean that quite literally, in all ways, yes? If I fall from a building, the fact that I don't start flying is not because I didn't try hard 'enough.' No one is going to expect, ever. I am not breathing underwater like a fish because I can't, not because I didn't try hard enough, yes?
If someone SAID that I fell to my death because I didn't try hard enough to fly, that would be ridiculous. And I don't think anyone, including you, would be using the phrase in that context. We all know that expecting effort alone to change such a basic, currently-unchangeable, part of reality would not work, and we don't look down on someone for being unable to change this part of reality, I don't think.
So the real crux seems to be what, exactly, defines when enough effort makes a difference, and when it will not? Where is that line, the point when we recognize that no, there IS no level of effort that will make this possible? When does 'learning how to fly in the next five minutes' change to 'you can memorize this if you study for another hour ?'
And I think another issue that comes up is: how do we judge whether something can be changed by effort alone, or if it is not possible, and WHO is the best person to judge that?
I can say from personal experience, when someone, who has not encountered a problem that I have, proceeds to tell me that how it is effort alone that hasn't solved that problem? It may not be intentional, but truly, that comes off as pretty dismissive and condescending. It implies that not only am I not trying (or I would have had a better outcome), and that I am ignorant about myself and my life so I don't seem to KNOW that I'm not trying, but ALSO that this person - who has not had my experiences and does not have my knowledge of the problem - somehow knows what the solution to that problem IS.
It feels like if someone came in off the street, walked into your work area, and proceeded to tell you how you are doing your job wrong, with no other knowledge than that you are having a problem.
I do not, and cannot, know all the problems that face another person in their life, you know what I mean? And for me, that means that I don't KNOW where the line from impossible to possible IS for any challenge they face, whether it's like trying to fly or trying to study. I don't know.
And I don't really think most of us do, either. Yeah, we can make a guess or estimate on the issue, sure. Parents do it all the times when encouraging their kids. But the further away someone's reality is from our own, the less, I think, we have any real knowledge of what is REALLY possible. Of when 'trying hard enough' is actually applicable.4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Hard enough IS defined by the outcome. That's pretty much the entire purpose of the word 'enough' being there.
That is an interesting take on that phrase, partly because I am sure you don't mean that quite literally, in all ways, yes? If I fall from a building, the fact that I don't start flying is not because I didn't try hard 'enough.' No one is going to expect, ever. I am not breathing underwater like a fish because I can't, not because I didn't try hard enough, yes?
If someone SAID that I fell to my death because I didn't try hard enough to fly, that would be ridiculous. And I don't think anyone, including you, would be using the phrase in that context. We all know that expecting effort alone to change such a basic, currently-unchangeable, part of reality would not work, and we don't look down on someone for being unable to change this part of reality, I don't think.
So the real crux seems to be what, exactly, defines when enough effort makes a difference, and when it will not? Where is that line, the point when we recognize that no, there IS no level of effort that will make this possible? When does 'learning how to fly in the next five minutes' change to 'you can memorize this if you study for another hour ?'
And I think another issue that comes up is: how do we judge whether something can be changed by effort alone, or if it is not possible, and WHO is the best person to judge that?
I can say from personal experience, when someone, who has not encountered a problem that I have, proceeds to tell me that how it is effort alone that hasn't solved that problem? It may not be intentional, but truly, that comes off as pretty dismissive and condescending. It implies that not only am I not trying (or I would have had a better outcome), and that I am ignorant about myself and my life so I don't seem to KNOW that I'm not trying, but ALSO that this person - who has not had my experiences and does not have my knowledge of the problem - somehow knows what the solution to that problem IS.
It feels like if someone came in off the street, walked into your work area, and proceeded to tell you how you are doing your job wrong, with no other knowledge than that you are having a problem.
I do not, and cannot, know all the problems that face another person in their life, you know what I mean? And for me, that means that I don't KNOW where the line from impossible to possible IS for any challenge they face, whether it's like trying to fly or trying to study. I don't know.
And I don't really think most of us do, either. Yeah, we can make a guess or estimate on the issue, sure. Parents do it all the times when encouraging their kids. But the further away someone's reality is from our own, the less, I think, we have any real knowledge of what is REALLY possible. Of when 'trying hard enough' is actually applicable.
Expecting to fly if you fall from a building is ridiculous. Same for immediately breathing under water. But can someone survive a fall from a building or breathe under water with sufficient planning and preparation (hard work)? Easily.
I think what's grinding people's gears about this saying, and it appears to be mostly people with legitimate medical issues, is that they're taking it as a personal attack. I don't presume to know anybody's trials and tribulations. Sounds like everyone is putting up a good fight, so "hell yeah!"
I'm not saying that ANYONE should be expected to exhaust every opportunity, every resource in time, money, energy, contacts, etc. and sacrifice all to achieve the seemingly impossible. That kind of drive is extremely rare and most likely very unpleasant. But how can one definitely say that something is impossible without doing just that?4 -
The statement is usually thrown around the most by people who haven't had to work for what they have.
Funny enough, the people who did need to work hard to get what they wanted will be the first ones to say that there's a definite chance that you'll fail but that it's usually worth a shot anyway.5 -
*kitten* woo phrase used by people who are out of touch with reality. It would be more accurate to say that more than 90% of people achieve less than 10% of that which they are capable, because they give up too easily and put forth a fraction of the effort that they could if they were willing to spend more time being uncomfortable.
No one can say what any individual is capable of achieving. We can only know what is possible for us by setting aggressive goals and pursuing them relentlessly. In my experience, most people are capable of much more than they actually achieve, and the most common obstacles are fear of change/failure/the unknown, and an unwillingness to venture outside of ones "comfort zone" and spend some time being uncertain/nervous/physically or mentally uncomfortable. If you look at the highest achievers out there, they have virtually all cultivated the habit of pressing onward with whatever endeavor they are engaged in without hesitation or doubt. The master has failed more times than the beginner has even tried, and all that.
Just my 2c.5 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »it appears to be mostly people with legitimate medical issues, is that they're taking it as a personal attack.
I'd say this often is the case, yes. But understandable, as quite frequently, this saying or similar ones like it HAVE been used as an attack against those who have physical or mental limitations. When these folks legitimately cannot do something due to certain realities of their life, they are STILL verbally hit with being lazy, not trying hard enough, whining, being a quitter, giving up, and so on.
Feeling attacked when the phrase comes up is, IMHO, no different than someone who has been frequently hit learning to flinch when someone raises their fist, you know?
But why many people with medical issues take this as a personal attack is also related to your last question, 'how can one definitely say that something is impossible without [exhausting all the possible ways to try it]?'
In most cases, my answer would be: simple common sense.
Like you noted, and I noted, expecting to fly after jumping off a building is ridiculous. And no one needs to exhaust any resources to try and prove this; experience of what happens to things when they fall and the history of our world and knowledge of our own bodies has shown us this is true. We literally don't need to go through any more effort to figure out that this is impossible.
But other parts of our lives are not immune from this same common sense, based on experience and knowledge. Athletes do it all the time, pushing themselves but realizing where a physical limitation is. Chronically ill folks do the same thing, but I suppose what has many of them upset is that, because THEIR physical limitation is often below what others can do, it is assumed that they have not pushed themselves, or that they do not know their limits.
...and they are often asked, when they say something cannot be done, 'how do you know if won't try?' Which negates the months and years of experience-based-knowledge of what their limits are.
And also, in my experience, it is often said about things that are literally just as impossible as learning to fly by jumping off a building. But people outside of the situation know so little about it that they cannot properly judge the possibilities.
Which again, touches on why people with medical issues can get so, so frustrated. I mean, imagine that someone told you that you could fly by jumping off a building (often followed by 'if you really wanted to). And you respond that you can't, it's impossible - which you DO know, obviously, from your own experience and everyone else's in the same position.
And they respond...have you TRIED to fly by jumping off a building? Have you really tried everything? Anything is possible if you try hard enough.
Seriously, just think about how you'd respond to that. Part of you wants to say, 'Are you serious right now? This is literally not possible. This is not simply my opinion, but factually not possible.'
And then imagine you have dozens of people, all ignorant about the realities of this, saying this to you. All the time. Over and over, telling you that you don't 'really' know that it's impossible to fly by jumping off a building. Maybe you just haven't tried hard enough.
And thinking of that...you may have an idea about why SO many people with medical issues get SO frustrated when people say this type of thing. EVEN IF the people are well meaning, and truly to believe what they are saying, and are not trying to be insulting but are hoping to be helpful.
But in many situations, it's about as helpful as telling someone they could fly by jumping off a building, if they just tried a little harder.7 -
I'm not sure if God-like powers really meet the spirit of the phrase. lol
If I wanted to fly, I'd go to flight school to become a pilot.
If I wanted to fly off of a building and my plan was merely: open widow, step through, and flap my arms, I would not be satisfied that I'd put enough work into that venture. My common sense and knowledge of the world gets me thinking about things like: parachutes, wing suits, zip-lines, bungee, I wonder if anyone's created a jet-pack yet. I wonder if anything could be done to control the air current with huge fans or turbines. There are all sorts of ideas that are fun to think about. But I wouldn't just say "No."
I do formally apologize to anyone I may have inadvertently triggered, though. I don't think of myself as mean-spirited or malicious, but I do know that I can be inconsiderate of strangers at times.
So it seems that this phrase is inspirational for some and a kick in the groin for others.4 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »So it seems that this phrase is inspirational for some and a kick in the groin for others.
Yeah, I'd say that's pretty much accurate. :-)WorkerDrone83 wrote: »I don't think of myself as mean-spirited or malicious, but I do know that I can be inconsiderate of strangers at times.
Just speaking for myself, I never took you as being mean-spirited or malicious. You seemed pretty genuine in your questions. It just seems like your own experiences are very different from my own, so you have a very different opinion based on those. Which is why I've been responding with longer posts, honestly, because it seems to me that when folks have very different experiences, it can take some talking to understand each other's point of view, yes?
We don't have to agree with each other, but I think understanding where each other comes from is good.
I know that before I myself GOT sick, I had a somewhat similar opinion to yours, I think. I viewed effort as the way to accomplish things, and that if I didn't manage something, I wasn't trying hard enough. I was very athletic and participated in multiple sports, constantly moving.
And then, suddenly, I wasn't. I could try all I wanted, and it didn't make things better. In fact, the attitude that I just had to try harder ended up making things worse, or rather...I guess maybe instead I'd say that 'trying harder' had a very narrow focus for me. Trying harder was, to my mind, putting more energy and work into physical actions, while at the same time researching like mad whatever scant information there was about remedies for my disorder.
And what ended up helping me the most was 'trying harder' to alter how I viewed the world, instead of trying to change that world. To realize that for some things, that quite literally IS the way it is. That for many conditions or diseases, there's no magic pill, no cure, not even a way to eliminate the worst symptoms, but instead there are simply ways to learn to cope with your new reality in a way that keeps you sane, and if you're lucky, even content.
To be personal here for a moment, I have a crap disease. I mean really crap, and really rare. It only affects one type of cell, but that cell is involved on dozens upon dozens of processes in the body, so it bejanks all of them. And one of them is having an allergic reaction. So my body can end up having what amounts to a serious allergic reaction to ANYTHING that these cells are involved in, even thought many of these aren't even things you can BE allergic too.
So I have allergic reactions to getting cold, to getting hot (including taking a shower), to getting startled, to exercising if my heart rate rises too fast, to many foods, to most preservatives ON foods, to most of the fillers used in nearly every medication (including the ones that are supposed to HELP with allergic reactions), and so on.
My favorite is that I have allergy-equivalent reactions to many chemicals, including chemicals that make up scent - I react to the scent of coffee, for example. Not the particulates in the air, but the actual scent. So if someone who just drank coffee breathes in my face, I'll start to react.
Just think for a moment how often you see people around you drinking coffee - I cannot be in those places. Can't go in restaurants, in bookstores, heck, even some banks and doctor's offices have coffee in them now. I can't go visit a single friend's house because they make coffee in the mornings. I can't be around crowds if there is coffee, so I can't go to sports events, can't be in airports or bus terminals, can't even go camping where there's lots of people because come morning: coffee.
I spend most of my time at home, or outdoors in wide open spaces. And honestly, all of the above said? I am okay.
I have had to REALLY adjust how I view my world, and my life, but I've done it. It's just that most of the 'trying hard' had to be internal rather than some effort in a physical action, you know? Instead of trying to find all these ways to stop reacting to coffee (which I did try, for quite a while), now I find ways to find joy and fun in what I CAN do. I do still keep up with current research, but considering my own disorder literally only got NAMED within the past 5 years or so, there's not a whole lot of it, you know?
aaaaand, that was likely really off topic, LOL. Just, trying to share something personal from my side of the fence, that's all. :-)
5 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »it appears to be mostly people with legitimate medical issues, is that they're taking it as a personal attack.
I'd say this often is the case, yes. But understandable, as quite frequently, this saying or similar ones like it HAVE been used as an attack against those who have physical or mental limitations. When these folks legitimately cannot do something due to certain realities of their life, they are STILL verbally hit with being lazy, not trying hard enough, whining, being a quitter, giving up, and so on.
Feeling attacked when the phrase comes up is, IMHO, no different than someone who has been frequently hit learning to flinch when someone raises their fist, you know?
But why many people with medical issues take this as a personal attack is also related to your last question, 'how can one definitely say that something is impossible without [exhausting all the possible ways to try it]?'
In most cases, my answer would be: simple common sense.
Like you noted, and I noted, expecting to fly after jumping off a building is ridiculous. And no one needs to exhaust any resources to try and prove this; experience of what happens to things when they fall and the history of our world and knowledge of our own bodies has shown us this is true. We literally don't need to go through any more effort to figure out that this is impossible.
But other parts of our lives are not immune from this same common sense, based on experience and knowledge. Athletes do it all the time, pushing themselves but realizing where a physical limitation is. Chronically ill folks do the same thing, but I suppose what has many of them upset is that, because THEIR physical limitation is often below what others can do, it is assumed that they have not pushed themselves, or that they do not know their limits.
...and they are often asked, when they say something cannot be done, 'how do you know if won't try?' Which negates the months and years of experience-based-knowledge of what their limits are.
And also, in my experience, it is often said about things that are literally just as impossible as learning to fly by jumping off a building. But people outside of the situation know so little about it that they cannot properly judge the possibilities.
Which again, touches on why people with medical issues can get so, so frustrated. I mean, imagine that someone told you that you could fly by jumping off a building (often followed by 'if you really wanted to). And you respond that you can't, it's impossible - which you DO know, obviously, from your own experience and everyone else's in the same position.
And they respond...have you TRIED to fly by jumping off a building? Have you really tried everything? Anything is possible if you try hard enough.
Seriously, just think about how you'd respond to that. Part of you wants to say, 'Are you serious right now? This is literally not possible. This is not simply my opinion, but factually not possible.'
And then imagine you have dozens of people, all ignorant about the realities of this, saying this to you. All the time. Over and over, telling you that you don't 'really' know that it's impossible to fly by jumping off a building. Maybe you just haven't tried hard enough.
And thinking of that...you may have an idea about why SO many people with medical issues get SO frustrated when people say this type of thing. EVEN IF the people are well meaning, and truly to believe what they are saying, and are not trying to be insulting but are hoping to be helpful.
But in many situations, it's about as helpful as telling someone they could fly by jumping off a building, if they just tried a little harder.
For the record, I never saw anything said in this discussion as an attack, just as a frustrating discourse. I am perfectly comfortable with knowing I have pushed myself to my limits, I'm old enough to not care what other people think. It simply was just like talking to someone who really thought it was possible to fly off a building as if it were some obvious thing.
The other, larger issue which played into my frustration with this discussion somewhat was not being taken at my word, which is something women in particular seem to experience a lot in their lives. I'm over it. I said certain things are physically impossible for me. That should have been enough. I offered explanations and got back patronizing platitudes.7 -
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I could not have said it better than AnnPT177: "Any phrase, including cliches or platitudes, has meaning in a context. Context includes who's saying it, to whom, in what tone of voice, embedded among what other words and ideas, and more. Absent that, such a phrase is a meaningless abstraction. Without a context, it doesn't communicate - I think this last is particularly the case for cliches or platitudes.
Much of the ensuing discussion involves folks assuming a context, then debating bits of those assumptions."3 -
runningforthetrain wrote: »I have enjoyed reading this thread. I could not have said it better than AnnPT177: "Any phrase, including cliches or platitudes, has meaning in a context. Context includes who's saying it, to whom, in what tone of voice, embedded among what other words and ideas, and more. Absent that, such a phrase is a meaningless abstraction. Without a context, it doesn't communicate - I think this last is particularly the case for cliches or platitudes.
Much of the ensuing discussion involves folks assuming a context, then debating bits of those assumptions."
Aw, shucks: Thanks! (blush)1 -
The statement is usually thrown around the most by people who haven't had to work for what they have.
Funny enough, the people who did need to work hard to get what they wanted will be the first ones to say that there's a definite chance that you'll fail but that it's usually worth a shot anyway.
That's pretty assumptive. You know how much effort anyone puts into things? Much less everyone who has ever used this phrase?
My observations are somewhat different. I've heard the phrase used mostly by adults trying to encourage children (probably 99% of the time), particularly parents but occasionally teachers. It's what you say a child who has ambitious dreams and some innate competence or talent. You say it knowing full well that odds are the child will decide they're interested in something else soon, or will give up on the work and sacrifices involved in pursuing that dream long before any external roadblocks truly stop them. You say it knowing that discipline and hard work are skills, not character traits, and it encourages the development of those skills. You say it knowing most children who dream of being president some day never will... But a few do. Same for ballet dancer, astronaut, ballplayer, or actor. You say it knowing that in the course of pursuing that pie in the sky dream, they may discover another dream that they can't even imagine yet, one that will give them a perfectly happy and fulfilled life, and maybe keeping faith in impossible dreams allows children to continue daring to dream and hope and imagine.
And that's how the phrase is typically used, in my experience.
The other, very small, group of people I've heard use it, toward adults, generally have been people who worked up to comfort from poverty. They believe it because they have lived the sacrifice. They are generally intimately acquainted with setbacks and challenges. And I seriously don't understand why their lived experiences are less valid than anyone else's.
7 -
The statement is usually thrown around the most by people who haven't had to work for what they have.
Funny enough, the people who did need to work hard to get what they wanted will be the first ones to say that there's a definite chance that you'll fail but that it's usually worth a shot anyway.
That's pretty assumptive. You know how much effort anyone puts into things? Much less everyone who has ever used this phrase?
My observations are somewhat different. I've heard the phrase used mostly by adults trying to encourage children (probably 99% of the time), particularly parents but occasionally teachers. It's what you say a child who has ambitious dreams and some innate competence or talent. You say it knowing full well that odds are the child will decide they're interested in something else soon, or will give up on the work and sacrifices involved in pursuing that dream long before any external roadblocks truly stop them. You say it knowing that discipline and hard work are skills, not character traits, and it encourages the development of those skills. You say it knowing most children who dream of being president some day never will... But a few do. Same for ballet dancer, astronaut, ballplayer, or actor. You say it knowing that in the course of pursuing that pie in the sky dream, they may discover another dream that they can't even imagine yet, one that will give them a perfectly happy and fulfilled life, and maybe keeping faith in impossible dreams allows children to continue daring to dream and hope and imagine.
And that's how the phrase is typically used, in my experience.
The other, very small, group of people I've heard use it, toward adults, generally have been people who worked up to comfort from poverty. They believe it because they have lived the sacrifice. They are generally intimately acquainted with setbacks and challenges. And I seriously don't understand why their lived experiences are less valid than anyone else's.
I see this a lot on the daily inspirational quotes (accompanied by pictures of flowers and hearts) that some of my facebook friends post. I think a lot of the pictures are pretty but nothing I would say to anyone in real life.4 -
I think it inspires delusional thinking that sets people up for disappointment for no legitimate reason or gain.5
-
I see this a lot on the daily inspirational quotes (accompanied by pictures of flowers and hearts) that some of my facebook friends post. I think a lot of the pictures are pretty but nothing I would say to anyone in real life.
I'm not generally a fan of motivational quotes. Or posters, or memes on motivational quotes. But I do get why they can be psychologically effective.
This phrase is one I've never actually used myself for anyone, old or young. It doesn't bother me, I understand the intent and it's not malicious and it's generally positive if naive
But if you want to see me get really annoyed by a motivational cliche, drag out the Robert Frost "the road less traveled" and put the final couplet out with no context. ARGHHHH!
2 -
I think it gets in the way of setting realistic attainable goals. There are a limitless number of things that are impossible. Nothing wrong with setting your heights high, but dreaming about the impossible is wasting time.
4 -
The statement is usually thrown around the most by people who haven't had to work for what they have.
Funny enough, the people who did need to work hard to get what they wanted will be the first ones to say that there's a definite chance that you'll fail but that it's usually worth a shot anyway.
That's pretty assumptive. You know how much effort anyone puts into things? Much less everyone who has ever used this phrase?
My statement is no more assumptive than yours. And while I don't mean to spark a political debate, I think we (in the US) have a whole federal government full of people who endlessly spout variations of this dreck...the people who don't have or who haven't achieved are simply not trying hard enough.
To say it more plainly because I'm very grumpy today...the statement is absolutely untrue. It's a worthless platitude spoken by people who don't generally have any better advice to give, nor interest in actually helping the receiver of the message. I actually lose respect for people who use the phrase, same as I do for people who use 'irregardless'. It's patronizing, trite, and cliche.
A much better piece of advice is "You'll never know what's possible unless you try", or "God helps those who help themselves" (or whatever non-religious version of this you prefer).4 -
Here's the thing.
We live in the age of the impossible.
Space travel
Computers in your pocket
Computers in your television
Television
Everyone is Dick Tracy
No, we don't have instant teleportation or FTL. But we're living in a Science fiction fantasy world otherwise. We can call our home and have the heat turned up/down, doors locked/unlocked, etc... No we don't have flying cars, but we are within 24 months of self driving cars.
Our practical conception of possible and impossible is so radically skewed as contrasted with previous generations.7 -
I think someone really entitled and privileged said it/coined it/whatever.8
-
Personally, it makes me think that someone doesn't know the laws of thermodynamics. There are things that are impossible.
In terms of motivational approach, I prefer Orel Hirscheiser's approach. He would go into every start planning to pitch a perfect game. If he gave up a walk, then he would try for a no-hitter. If he gave up a hit, then he aimed for a shut out. Work for a realistic perfect future, but deal with an imperfect present and past.5 -
Unfortunately it's BS.
People have talents in varying degrees in various things.
For example, no matter how much I practice golf I will never be good enough to be a professional golfer.
I just don't have "it".
I am not good enough in math to be a physicist. Forget it. I'm not smart enough.
If I practice singing all the time will I sing like Maria Carey? No.
The trick is to find something you can become good at or at least half-assed at in the case of making a living.
Always do the best you can.
The vast majority of us will only ever be average if we are lucky.
The world is full of people who can't accept their lack of talent in a certain thing and never move on to something they can be pretty fair at and have some degree of success. It's a sad thing to see.
2 -
Unfortunately it's BS.
People have talents in varying degrees in various things.
For example, no matter how much I practice golf I will never be good enough to be a professional golfer.
I just don't have "it".
I am not good enough in math to be a physicist. Forget it. I'm not smart enough.
If I practice singing all the time will I sing like Maria Carey? No.
The trick is to find something you can become good at or at least half-assed at in the case of making a living.
Always do the best you can.
The vast majority of us will only ever be average if we are lucky.
The world is full of people who can't accept their lack of talent in a certain thing and never move on to something they can be pretty fair at and have some degree of success. It's a sad thing to see.
Yet in my professional life (IT) I routinely met people of average talent who achieved a great deal more through persistence and hard work than did others with more talent but weaker character.
I've seen the same in a couple of athletic things I've done (Chinese martial arts and rowing, if it matters).
Nobody's beating out the talent + hard work/persistence combo, which is required to reach the pinnacle of darn near anything, and I'm not suggesting that the majorly talentless should delude themselves . . . but as differentiators in the middle ranks of achievement, the value of talent is overestimated, and that of hard work (with middling talent) underappreciated.9 -
Yes, I am a bit older and knowledge and information has evolved but I put this to you:
As a child I was both Epileptic and Dyslectic. In the 60s and 70s all the experts told my parents and myself, you are handicapped, you have brain issues, you may never be able to drive, have a job or even life insurance. Hopefully you will find a husband that can take care of you. I also have a twin that is high gifted in the opposite direction.
I was a 3 sport varsity athlete in high school, graduated a year early from HS. Yes, I drive. Worked myself through college, some times 3 jobs at one time to pay tuition. books and fees. I never had a single loan. My first degree was in Manufacturing Technology Management, The second in Business and finally a masters in educational technology. I also so many technical certifications I can list them and a interior design certification and a master gardening certification. I even took Japanese in college. I have worked for some of top 100 US companies. I will retire at age 55...younger than most people, fully self funded. I scuba dive, surf, skydive and a host of other adventurous things.
I told myself I could do what ever I wanted...even as an adult...just have to figure out how. Doctors, parents and schools told me I would never be productive in society. So yes, I buy into the concept that you invest in yourself and accomplish your goals. I can barley read and I will have to proof this posting 100 times and likely still have errors...and that's OK. I embrace what I don't do well as much as what I do exceptionally well and achieve anyway.
I tell my kids, the oldest with several physical impairments, that they can accomplish their goals...and maybe a hearing problem will keep the oldest from going into the military, but it wont prevent him from being a DoD rocket scientist...there are all sorts of ways to serve his country. Not everyone has to be the person with the gun...and I think the guy with the rocket has the bigger gun anyway.7
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions