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"Natural foods" vs "others"
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Er, except even in the supposedly 'myth-busting' article above, conducted by an expert hired by McDonalds - hahaha, no biases there at all, clearly - McDonalds fries have around 15 other ingredients except for potato, oil and salt.
"But because McDonald's wanted to make sure skeptics and fans alike got as much information as possible, it made an additional video with Imahara just to explain all 19 ingredients that go into making its french fries.
The list not only includes the potatoes themselves, plus various oils, dextrose and sodium acid pyrophosphate, but also natural beef flavor, hydrolyzed wheat, hydrolyzed milk, citric acid, salt and hydrogenated soybean oil with the antioxidant TBHQ, which "preserves the freshness of the oil."
I think this is a silly point, since no one thinks french fries are a health food, and the reason french fries should be consumed in limited amounts (especially when one is dieting) is that they are high cal (mostly due to all the oil, as potatoes aren't hard to fit in) and not very high nutrient for the calories.
You seem to be arguing that fries made at the local restaurant into the local, artisanal ingredients would be 100% fine for any diet, but that McD's fries would be bad for one's health. I think both are about the same (and should be limited), but that calories are what really matter (that and type of fat used).
So I'll ask you, in the quantities used, what exactly do these 15 ingredients do that is supposedly so bad for my health? Just having a long word in their names doesn't make them bad.
(I don't like McD's anyway, so the focus on McD's or FF seems really odd to me, but you seem to think it's important so I'm sure you can answer this question.)
Exactly. The reason why I eat french fries less often than some other foods has nothing to do with preservatives in the oil. It's because they're a calorie dense food that I personally find very easy to overeat and that has the potential to crowd out others things that I need.
Would the french fries from the artisan burger shop in my neighborhood be meaningfully better for me than McDonald's fries? I'm not sure I can identify an objective way in which they would be.5 -
nettiklive wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I randomly stumbled on this video today and remembered this thread, I'm sure it'll get woo'd on here but this sums up exactly what I've been trying to say about fast food and junk food and how it's different from natural foods
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1025790800904622&id=276157035868006
Can you please point to where in this thread, or any other, anyone said that there is NO difference between "junk food" (whatever you are defining that as) and natural foods (again, however you define them)? You keep proclaiming that people are saying something that no one is saying, and you've been misrepresenting the context of this thread in others as well.
People were claiming here there's no difference between a homemade burger or potato and McDonald's or frozen Walmart burgers or whatever. There is because production matters.
What's the difference?
Price?
Quality?
The ingredients are in fact the same.
Beef
Potato
You may choose to use fewer oils or different salt, but that's a detail, not a difference.
The longest word on the ingredient list is dimethylpolysiloxane, an anti-foaming agent. "It helps keep the oil from splattering," Imahara says in the video. "It's approved for use in a number of many other very familiar foods."
It's organic, for what it's worth.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »Er, except even in the supposedly 'myth-busting' article above, conducted by an expert hired by McDonalds - hahaha, no biases there at all, clearly - McDonalds fries have around 15 other ingredients except for potato, oil and salt.
"But because McDonald's wanted to make sure skeptics and fans alike got as much information as possible, it made an additional video with Imahara just to explain all 19 ingredients that go into making its french fries.
The list not only includes the potatoes themselves, plus various oils, dextrose and sodium acid pyrophosphate, but also natural beef flavor, hydrolyzed wheat, hydrolyzed milk, citric acid, salt and hydrogenated soybean oil with the antioxidant TBHQ, which "preserves the freshness of the oil."
I think this is a silly point, since no one thinks french fries are a health food, and the reason french fries should be consumed in limited amounts (especially when one is dieting) is that they are high cal (mostly due to all the oil, as potatoes aren't hard to fit in) and not very high nutrient for the calories.
You seem to be arguing that fries made at the local restaurant into the local, artisanal ingredients would be 100% fine for any diet, but that McD's fries would be bad for one's health. I think both are about the same (and should be limited), but that calories are what really matter (that and type of fat used).
So I'll ask you, in the quantities used, what exactly do these 15 ingredients do that is supposedly so bad for my health? Just having a long word in their names doesn't make them bad.
(I don't like McD's anyway, so the focus on McD's or FF seems really odd to me, but you seem to think it's important so I'm sure you can answer this question.)
Exactly. The reason why I eat french fries less often than some other foods has nothing to do with preservatives in the oil. It's because they're a calorie dense food that I personally find very easy to overeat and that has the potential to crowd out others things that I need.
Would the french fries from the artisan burger shop in my neighborhood be meaningfully better for me than McDonald's fries? I'm not sure I can identify an objective way in which they would be.
Yes but the bolded is because you are clearly a person who cares nothing their body and their health, let alone what society says you should care about since anyone who dares eat those foods would definitely not admit this in the social circles where only "natural" foods are consumed by adults and children alike.
/sarcasmfont6 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Peas and beans (1100g of peas, and 1000g of red kidney beans prepared from dry)
Thank you for the 3 of those. That was really interesting, and not exactly what I would've guessed.
Too bad he didn't just say "legumes" . . . coulda snuck some peanuts in there.
ditto. If you can get enough of the mono-diet vegan choices down (and process it), you could get adequate cystine. It's the B12 that is missing.1 -
nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I randomly stumbled on this video today and remembered this thread, I'm sure it'll get woo'd on here but this sums up exactly what I've been trying to say about fast food and junk food and how it's different from natural foods
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1025790800904622&id=276157035868006
Can you please point to where in this thread, or any other, anyone said that there is NO difference between "junk food" (whatever you are defining that as) and natural foods (again, however you define them)? You keep proclaiming that people are saying something that no one is saying, and you've been misrepresenting the context of this thread in others as well.
People were claiming here there's no difference between a homemade burger or potato and McDonald's or frozen Walmart burgers or whatever. There is because production matters.
You'll have to find the exact quote where someone said there is no difference between a homemade burger or potatoes and those purchased from McDonalds so that I don't misinterpret their position, but my guess is that the point was that the nutritional value of the basic, common ingredients used in these food items is negligible in comparison.
Homemade ground beef burgers vs McDonalds ground beef burgers - same size, same toppings. Tell me how the nutritional value is going to be different?
Homemade french fries vs McDonalds french fries... again, tell me how the nutritional content is going to vary significantly.
You've trotted out some scary sounding chemicals that are listed on a fearmongering article/video. How specifically do those chemical additives detract from the basic nutritional profile of both the burger and fries if it is mass produced by McDonalds vs prepared by a home cook?5 -
WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I randomly stumbled on this video today and remembered this thread, I'm sure it'll get woo'd on here but this sums up exactly what I've been trying to say about fast food and junk food and how it's different from natural foods
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1025790800904622&id=276157035868006
Can you please point to where in this thread, or any other, anyone said that there is NO difference between "junk food" (whatever you are defining that as) and natural foods (again, however you define them)? You keep proclaiming that people are saying something that no one is saying, and you've been misrepresenting the context of this thread in others as well.
People were claiming here there's no difference between a homemade burger or potato and McDonald's or frozen Walmart burgers or whatever. There is because production matters.
You'll have to find the exact quote where someone said there is no difference between a homemade burger or potatoes and those purchased from McDonalds so that I don't misinterpret their position, but my guess is that the point was that the nutritional value of the basic, common ingredients used in these food items is negligible in comparison.
Homemade ground beef burgers vs McDonalds ground beef burgers - same size, same toppings. Tell me how the nutritional value is going to be different?
Homemade french fries vs McDonalds french fries... again, tell me how the nutritional content is going to vary significantly.
You've trotted out some scary sounding chemicals that are listed on a fearmongering article/video. How specifically do those chemical additives detract from the basic nutritional profile of both the burger and fries if it is mass produced by McDonalds vs prepared by a home cook?
It's like earlier in the thread where the example of letting children snack on a giant bowl of canned frosting instead of fruit was used . . . like, the reason we usually don't let children snack on frosting is because it's freaking frosting, not because it came in a can. It's not like we'd see big differences in the results of letting kids snack on homemade buttercream frosting from grass-fed cows instead of Duncan Hines from a tub.
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nutmegoreo wrote: »Peas and beans (1100g of peas, and 1000g of red kidney beans prepared from dry)
Thank you for the 3 of those. That was really interesting, and not exactly what I would've guessed.
Too bad he didn't just say "legumes" . . . coulda snuck some peanuts in there.
ditto. If you can get enough of the mono-diet vegan choices down (and process it), you could get adequate cystine. It's the B12 that is missing.
You'd have to resort to supplementing with sea water, though, or you would die of electrolyte imbalance.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I randomly stumbled on this video today and remembered this thread, I'm sure it'll get woo'd on here but this sums up exactly what I've been trying to say about fast food and junk food and how it's different from natural foods
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1025790800904622&id=276157035868006
Can you please point to where in this thread, or any other, anyone said that there is NO difference between "junk food" (whatever you are defining that as) and natural foods (again, however you define them)? You keep proclaiming that people are saying something that no one is saying, and you've been misrepresenting the context of this thread in others as well.
People were claiming here there's no difference between a homemade burger or potato and McDonald's or frozen Walmart burgers or whatever. There is because production matters.
You'll have to find the exact quote where someone said there is no difference between a homemade burger or potatoes and those purchased from McDonalds so that I don't misinterpret their position, but my guess is that the point was that the nutritional value of the basic, common ingredients used in these food items is negligible in comparison.
Homemade ground beef burgers vs McDonalds ground beef burgers - same size, same toppings. Tell me how the nutritional value is going to be different?
Homemade french fries vs McDonalds french fries... again, tell me how the nutritional content is going to vary significantly.
You've trotted out some scary sounding chemicals that are listed on a fearmongering article/video. How specifically do those chemical additives detract from the basic nutritional profile of both the burger and fries if it is mass produced by McDonalds vs prepared by a home cook?
It's like earlier in the thread where the example of letting children snack on a giant bowl of canned frosting instead of fruit was used . . . like, the reason we usually don't let children snack on frosting is because it's freaking frosting, not because it came in a can. It's not like we'd see big differences in the results of letting kids snack on homemade buttercream frosting from grass-fed cows instead of Duncan Hines from a tub.
Oh I forgot about that tangent.
Someone said in a different thread yesterday, something like: "if you have to extrapolate your opponents argument to such extremes in order to make a point in a debate, maybe your position isn't that solid to begin with"...
I wish I could remember who said it so I could give credit, but it was so, so true...5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »I randomly stumbled on this video today and remembered this thread, I'm sure it'll get woo'd on here but this sums up exactly what I've been trying to say about fast food and junk food and how it's different from natural foods
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1025790800904622&id=276157035868006
Can you please point to where in this thread, or any other, anyone said that there is NO difference between "junk food" (whatever you are defining that as) and natural foods (again, however you define them)? You keep proclaiming that people are saying something that no one is saying, and you've been misrepresenting the context of this thread in others as well.
People were claiming here there's no difference between a homemade burger or potato and McDonald's or frozen Walmart burgers or whatever. There is because production matters.
You'll have to find the exact quote where someone said there is no difference between a homemade burger or potatoes and those purchased from McDonalds so that I don't misinterpret their position, but my guess is that the point was that the nutritional value of the basic, common ingredients used in these food items is negligible in comparison.
Homemade ground beef burgers vs McDonalds ground beef burgers - same size, same toppings. Tell me how the nutritional value is going to be different?
Homemade french fries vs McDonalds french fries... again, tell me how the nutritional content is going to vary significantly.
You've trotted out some scary sounding chemicals that are listed on a fearmongering article/video. How specifically do those chemical additives detract from the basic nutritional profile of both the burger and fries if it is mass produced by McDonalds vs prepared by a home cook?
It's like earlier in the thread where the example of letting children snack on a giant bowl of canned frosting instead of fruit was used . . . like, the reason we usually don't let children snack on frosting is because it's freaking frosting, not because it came in a can. It's not like we'd see big differences in the results of letting kids snack on homemade buttercream frosting from grass-fed cows instead of Duncan Hines from a tub.
...and now I'm craving frosting.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Exactly. The reason why I eat french fries less often than some other foods has nothing to do with preservatives in the oil. It's because they're a calorie dense food that I personally find very easy to overeat and that has the potential to crowd out others things that I need.
Would the french fries from the artisan burger shop in my neighborhood be meaningfully better for me than McDonald's fries? I'm not sure I can identify an objective way in which they would be.
Yeah... when I want some I am not looking for which fries are the best for me I am looking for the ones that taste the best for the calories I will spend on them.
Once you starting worrying about chemicals in food the only place it can lead is living somewhere like Alaska off the grid growing and hunting your own food. You'd need to be as far away from pollution as you can and you'd have to stay away from electronics. You can't work in a stressful environment like an office and you need all the exercise that comes with a very active lifestyle. You would either be short-sighted choosing to only fix your diet or a total hypocrite to ignore all of the other dangers.
Of course I still think if everyone in this country decided to eat "natural" it would create a massive famine but that is another discussion for another day.5 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Peas and beans (1100g of peas, and 1000g of red kidney beans prepared from dry)
Thank you for the 3 of those. That was really interesting, and not exactly what I would've guessed.
Too bad he didn't just say "legumes" . . . coulda snuck some peanuts in there.
I was also expecting it to be much worse, but there's no way that I could get that much food in to me every day.0 -
I’ve pondered how many peanuts and tomatoes I’d have to grow annually to keep up with my annual consumption. It’s not pretty.
I’ve also looked in to raising quail and for the healthiest meat birds, they are to be fed a high protein feed mix. So I looked in to what makes up that protein mix. It’s mealworms. That sent me in to the rabbit hole of mealworm husbandry and guess what sort of feed gets you your best yield? A good high protein mix.
It got me thinking that a good part of the food industry is finding ways of turning inferior sources of protein in to better ones.
Or I could turn the quail free to forage their own bugs.
But I have a sneaking suspicion all I’d be doing is profiting the local coyote population.5 -
Oh, and BTW - there are regulations in place in the food industry so you don't have to worry about whether or not your meat has been "fed and shot with god knows what". Food manufacturers/producers aren't nearly as evil in real life as they are in your fantasies.
This is all just more orthorexia and fearmongering. Nothing more.[/quote]
Hmmm really? So scandals like DDT where something is promoted as totally fine, until cancers and birth defects begin, never happened? How many times in history did corporations produce something, only to go 'whoops' decades later and end up with the substance banned or restricted? That however doesn't help those who have already suffered the consequences (and mind you, not everyone does). And this, for the most part, happens with artificially produced substances, not ones occurring in nature. Though these also exist, and I try to avoid natural foods that are potential cancerogens or endocrine disrupters, such as soy for children or even overly burnt toast. Same with additives, that may be totally harmless, or may, in twenty years, emerge to be associated with cancer or other issues. Its easy enough to avoid them (not fanatically but minimize), to where it's one of the easiest risk to.mitigate in an environment that's already not too healthy.13 -
nettiklive wrote: »Hmmm really? So scandals like DDT where something is promoted as totally fine, until cancers and birth defects begin, never happened? How many times in history did corporations produce something, only to go 'whoops' decades later and end up with the substance banned or restricted? That however doesn't help those who have already suffered the consequences (and mind you, not everyone does). And this, for the most part, happens with artificially produced substances, not ones occurring in nature. Though these also exist, and I try to avoid natural foods that are potential cancerogens or endocrine disrupters, such as soy for children or even overly burnt toast. Same with additives, that may be totally harmless, or may, in twenty years, emerge to be associated with cancer or other issues. Its easy enough to avoid them (not fanatically but minimize), to where it's one of the easiest risk to.mitigate in an environment that's already not too healthy.
If this is the justification for your fear you are back to the dark ages. No medications, not cleansers for your house, no inorganic materials in your house, and so forth. Why isolate food when there is so much more to be scared of? You shouldn't drive anymore either. In addition to the fatality rates there are all those fumes you are breathing in when you are on a busy road or highway.
The good news is that if you move to Alaska it is really popular right now for reality TV shows.13 -
It’s too late. PCB’s and dioxins have been found in polar bears.4
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Y'know, as I was growing up, I was exposed to DDT in substantial quantities (it was sprayed by the pounds by a big tractor/trailer-mounted blower all around my house, as well as in most of the public parks, many times a season, to kill mosquitos). About a quarter mile up the road, a big dairy farm (sitting on the same aquifer as our drinking water well) lost not one but two complete herds of cows to the PBB contamination crisis in the 1970s. The second herd was buried on the site. I could go on.
So, I figure I don't have to worry, I'm already dead.
Nowadays, <squints, hitches up britches> I ain't skeered of any ol' dumb Doritos.
Seriously: While some attentiveness and concern is rational about effects of the huge array of products that have come into being (and close contact with us) in the last few decades, often with an assumption that they're safe rather than testing, a state of constant obsessive anxiety about it is probably a bigger health threat in itself than whatever we're getting from McD's fries once or twice a week, polysyllabic preservatives in foods we eat by the teaspoon, the cleaning product we use a few times a year on the stubborn stain on our countertop, etc.
As happened with DDT, the most dangerous thing is quite possibly something we don't even know about yet. (DDT was seen as a great savior back in the day: Got rid of the ubiquitous bed bugs, lice, fleas, and more; reduced the diseases they spread - or was believed to do so.) It could be anything. Maybe we'll discover that dryer lint causes cancer. ( ).
Will the chemicals get us? Global warming? One of the other many potential consequence of our modern life? Or not? Who knows. There's no big point in worry about the *baby-feline* Doritos, in any case, if you ask me. Mental health is important, too.7 -
Will the chemicals get us? Global warming? One of the other many potential consequence of our modern life? Or not? Who knows. There's no big point in worry about the *baby-feline* Doritos, in any case, if you ask me. Mental health is important, too.
^ This point bears repeating.
Oh, and unrelated to the above quote...."cancerogen" is not a word.
6 -
Will the chemicals get us? Global warming? One of the other many potential consequence of our modern life? Or not? Who knows. There's no big point in worry about the *baby-feline* Doritos, in any case, if you ask me. Mental health is important, too.
^ This point bears repeating.
Oh, and unrelated to the above quote...."cancerogen" is not a word.
We can make it a word. Henceforth it shall mean insufferable mommy blogger who insists on having children born in July because she read a listicle that summarized an article that misconstrued a study that suggested there was a slight statistical advantage for babies born in July to get into an Ivy League school.13 -
Y'know, as I was growing up, I was exposed to DDT in substantial quantities (it was sprayed by the pounds by a big tractor/trailer-mounted blower all around my house, as well as in most of the public parks, many times a season, to kill mosquitos). About a quarter mile up the road, a big dairy farm (sitting on the same aquifer as our drinking water well) lost not one but two complete herds of cows to the PBB contamination crisis in the 1970s. The second herd was buried on the site. I could go on.
So, I figure I don't have to worry, I'm already dead.
Nowadays, <squints, hitches up britches> I ain't skeered of any ol' dumb Doritos.
Seriously: While some attentiveness and concern is rational about effects of the huge array of products that have come into being (and close contact with us) in the last few decades, often with an assumption that they're safe rather than testing, a state of constant obsessive anxiety about it is probably a bigger health threat in itself than whatever we're getting from McD's fries once or twice a week, polysyllabic preservatives in foods we eat by the teaspoon, the cleaning product we use a few times a year on the stubborn stain on our countertop, etc.
As happened with DDT, the most dangerous thing is quite possibly something we don't even know about yet. (DDT was seen as a great savior back in the day: Got rid of the ubiquitous bed bugs, lice, fleas, and more; reduced the diseases they spread - or was believed to do so.) It could be anything. Maybe we'll discover that dryer lint causes cancer. ( ).
Will the chemicals get us? Global warming? One of the other many potential consequence of our modern life? Or not? Who knows. There's no big point in worry about the *baby-feline* Doritos, in any case, if you ask me. Mental health is important, too.
Why do people assume that avoiding certain types of food or product equals living in a state of constant anxiety about it?? I feel absolutely zero anxiety about not eating junk food5
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