Myth or not a myth?
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janejellyroll wrote: »It is ok to encourage people to eat treats in moderation but "whatever you want" is not moderation. Even when mentioning that it must be within their calorie budget, that is misleading because many people cant eat their favorite foods often within their calorie budget or in a portion they would expect.
That is your opinion. I see no reason to believe the OP is unable to understand context. You are blowing this way out of proportion as if we have condemned her to a lifetime of being overweight.
I never said anyone here has condemned her. You are putting words in my mouth. I was simply suggesting that this commonly used phrase of eat whatever you want is misleading and more context would be helpful, especially to people that may be new to dieting. Someone may have input their numbers into MFP and have a number in mind, but may not know how far that number goes in terms of real food. Yeah, we can just let them figure it out. I'm willing to bet that at least some people will try to stick to their same habits and fail to stick to their calorie budget and leave frustrated. Most people have to make some changes in either the types of food they eat, the frequency of those foods, or the portions of those foods. I would rather give realistic information that is actually helpful than sugar coat the real process.
OP already talked about a 1,200 calorie goal. Why are you assuming she doesn't know that some element of portion control will be involved? She clearly gets it.
I don't know who you're advocating for here, but it isn't OP. She gets it.
She created a board asking about eating her favorite foods within her calorie budget. Clearly there was a question in her mind.18 -
Oh, my story wasn't just meant as a funny anecdote, and certainly not asking permission for anything, but as an example of the usual pattern of yoyo-dieters that I, and others in this thread, meet daily in here. I have finally found something that works for me, after struggling with mainstream advice and blaming myself for failing to adhere. Is your current way working for you?kommodevaran wrote: »
It seems to me you're putting too much emphasis on "whatever" and not enough on "want". If I just ate whatever, of course I'd be fat again. I don't want that. So I just eat enough to maintain a healthy weight. Before I found MFP, I believed I had to eat in a certain way to lose/maintain. It would work well for a while, apparently, until it absolutely didn't. So I overate indiscriminately, because I had missed so many foods, but most of all, because I need to feel that I'm making my own food choices. Having adhered to unecessary restictions for too long, I careened over to the other side of the road. I got fat again, no surprise there. I overate because I felt entitled, until I just stopped caring.janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. I'm trying to be realistic here.
Given that virtually every post saying "Yes" to OP's question is adding "as long as you're in a deficit" or "as long as you're hitting your calorie goal," I can't agree with your reading that OP is being told she can eat as much as she wants of whatever she wants.
When you're asking different people about this, are you including the context that these discussions are taking place on a calorie counting website? That's pretty crucial context, IMO.
I get not being satisfied with a single serving of something. It's why I don't eat, for example, Swedish Fish, because it's something like 150 calories for 7 fish and that's just not enough for me so I don't eat them. But that doesn't change the fact that I *could* eat Swedish Fish. If you're choosing not to eat pizza because you want more than one piece, that doesn't mean you can't have pizza at all. It means you're *choosing* not to have it. And that's a perfectly rational calculation that lots of people make.
But since OP is asking about having pizza within her calorie goal, we've got to consider that she *does* think it would be worth it (at least she thinks it will be). Why should your feelings about pizza or my feelings about Swedish Fish determined whether or not OP can have pizza or candy often? What's realistic for OP may look completely different than what is realistic for you.
A lot pf people fail trying to stick with their calorie budgets for a reason. Because they realize they can't stick to their budget eating "whatever they want". Thats my point. Some people may be able to make it happen by eating tiny portions. People new to counting calories may see that and think they can eat what they want only to see that their favorite foods have too many calories and then feel misled.
Now that I know it is ALL ABOUT CALORIES, I don't divide foods into good and bad, and I don't feel like a loser when I eat something I "shouldn't have". Getting that burden off my shoulders, actually makes me able to pay attention to how different foods and meals make me feel, and wanting to eat well, for health, wellbeing and longevity, and so I have ended up eating a nutrtionally sound and balanced diet, almost according to most national recommendations. This has brought forth and is facilitated by a surprising change: I love so many foods now, that I felt tasted either too bland or too strong, or both, I love cooking because I can make meals I want to eat, I don't have to overeat to try to get that "enough" feeling. I have treats, but only occasionally, and in reasonable amounts, that I'm finally able to stop at, because I know I'm not doing anything wrong, so there's no "evidence" to get rid of, and no "last supper" scenario. I know I can have more, I just have to wait, and everything tastes better when I'm not eating it all the time.
I'm glad you have found what works for you. People go about losing weight in different ways. For some people, especially those with lower calorie budgets, what they "want" doesn't fit in their budget and allow for satiety. I'm not shaming anyone for their choices.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. One piece of thin crust pizza is not " whatever I want". For me it is 2 or 3 slices of regular crust. I'm trying to be realistic here. For the average person eating "whatever" is why they are overweight in the first place and those types of comments are not helpful. As a relatively new person to these forums I'm saying that and I'm sure others may agree. Why do you think many people express surprise? Eating whatever they want doesnt work..
Since you said you’re new at this - let me throw out this perspective. Choosing thick crust pizza is what I did when I weighed 267 lbs. now I weigh 170 on the way to 150. My pizza of choice is either a slice of thick crust, 1/2 a thin crust pie or a lean cuisine 410 cal pizza. Since that is what I will continue to need to choose to maintain my weight, that falls into “what I want”. It’s not a sacrifice or a punishment, it’s my new normal. Not going all or nothing with food choices is the key to loss and maintence.
Let me clarify, I'm NOT new to calorie counting. I have been keeping food journals since I was 18 years old. I'm 35 now. I am pretty knowlegable when it comes to food and nutrition. I am new to these message boards. I'm not suggesting that people go all or nothing. I'm saying that the phrase " whatever you want" is misleading, especially to people who dont have knowledge about food and calories. People new to counting calories dont know how far 1200 or 1500 calories go. They may try eating the same junk foods, realize their calories have quickly run out, end up hungry, and give up. I have had to accept the reality that I can't eat whatever I want. That is a reality for me. It may not be your reality but it is for some people.
There’s a big difference between “whatever you want” and “however MUCH you want”. Try thinking of it that way?11 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
Oh, my story wasn't just meant as a funny anecdote, and certainly not asking permission for anything, but as an example of the usual pattern of yoyo-dieters that I, and others in this thread, meet daily in here. I have finally found something that works for me, after struggling with mainstream advice and blaming myself for failing to adhere. Is your current way working for you?kommodevaran wrote: »
It seems to me you're putting too much emphasis on "whatever" and not enough on "want". If I just ate whatever, of course I'd be fat again. I don't want that. So I just eat enough to maintain a healthy weight. Before I found MFP, I believed I had to eat in a certain way to lose/maintain. It would work well for a while, apparently, until it absolutely didn't. So I overate indiscriminately, because I had missed so many foods, but most of all, because I need to feel that I'm making my own food choices. Having adhered to unecessary restictions for too long, I careened over to the other side of the road. I got fat again, no surprise there. I overate because I felt entitled, until I just stopped caring.janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. I'm trying to be realistic here.
Given that virtually every post saying "Yes" to OP's question is adding "as long as you're in a deficit" or "as long as you're hitting your calorie goal," I can't agree with your reading that OP is being told she can eat as much as she wants of whatever she wants.
When you're asking different people about this, are you including the context that these discussions are taking place on a calorie counting website? That's pretty crucial context, IMO.
I get not being satisfied with a single serving of something. It's why I don't eat, for example, Swedish Fish, because it's something like 150 calories for 7 fish and that's just not enough for me so I don't eat them. But that doesn't change the fact that I *could* eat Swedish Fish. If you're choosing not to eat pizza because you want more than one piece, that doesn't mean you can't have pizza at all. It means you're *choosing* not to have it. And that's a perfectly rational calculation that lots of people make.
But since OP is asking about having pizza within her calorie goal, we've got to consider that she *does* think it would be worth it (at least she thinks it will be). Why should your feelings about pizza or my feelings about Swedish Fish determined whether or not OP can have pizza or candy often? What's realistic for OP may look completely different than what is realistic for you.
A lot pf people fail trying to stick with their calorie budgets for a reason. Because they realize they can't stick to their budget eating "whatever they want". Thats my point. Some people may be able to make it happen by eating tiny portions. People new to counting calories may see that and think they can eat what they want only to see that their favorite foods have too many calories and then feel misled.
Now that I know it is ALL ABOUT CALORIES, I don't divide foods into good and bad, and I don't feel like a loser when I eat something I "shouldn't have". Getting that burden off my shoulders, actually makes me able to pay attention to how different foods and meals make me feel, and wanting to eat well, for health, wellbeing and longevity, and so I have ended up eating a nutrtionally sound and balanced diet, almost according to most national recommendations. This has brought forth and is facilitated by a surprising change: I love so many foods now, that I felt tasted either too bland or too strong, or both, I love cooking because I can make meals I want to eat, I don't have to overeat to try to get that "enough" feeling. I have treats, but only occasionally, and in reasonable amounts, that I'm finally able to stop at, because I know I'm not doing anything wrong, so there's no "evidence" to get rid of, and no "last supper" scenario. I know I can have more, I just have to wait, and everything tastes better when I'm not eating it all the time.
I'm glad you have found what works for you. People go about losing weight in different ways. For some people, especially those with lower calorie budgets, what they "want" doesn't fit in their budget and allow for satiety. I'm not shaming anyone for their choices.
So far it is. The hardest part for me is sticking to my calorie budget without being hungry. That has forced me to eliminate my favorite foods for the most part because they dont fit in my calorie budget.2 -
I always forget about the Twinkie diet.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »It is ok to encourage people to eat treats in moderation but "whatever you want" is not moderation. Even when mentioning that it must be within their calorie budget, that is misleading because many people cant eat their favorite foods often within their calorie budget or in a portion they would expect.
That is your opinion. I see no reason to believe the OP is unable to understand context. You are blowing this way out of proportion as if we have condemned her to a lifetime of being overweight.
I never said anyone here has condemned her. You are putting words in my mouth. I was simply suggesting that this commonly used phrase of eat whatever you want is misleading and more context would be helpful, especially to people that may be new to dieting. Someone may have input their numbers into MFP and have a number in mind, but may not know how far that number goes in terms of real food. Yeah, we can just let them figure it out. I'm willing to bet that at least some people will try to stick to their same habits and fail to stick to their calorie budget and leave frustrated. Most people have to make some changes in either the types of food they eat, the frequency of those foods, or the portions of those foods. I would rather give realistic information that is actually helpful than sugar coat the real process.
OP already talked about a 1,200 calorie goal. Why are you assuming she doesn't know that some element of portion control will be involved? She clearly gets it.
I don't know who you're advocating for here, but it isn't OP. She gets it.
She created a board asking about eating her favorite foods within her calorie budget. Clearly there was a question in her mind.
Yes - because a lot of people have had their heads filled over and over again with the false idea that you have to deprive yourself of any and all foods you enjoy and live on carrot sticks and kale to lose weight, rather than the truth - which is that you can lose weight eating anything you want. But with that said, it's a good idea to exercise some common sense and eat a reasonably balanced diet.12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. One piece of thin crust pizza is not " whatever I want". For me it is 2 or 3 slices of regular crust. I'm trying to be realistic here. For the average person eating "whatever" is why they are overweight in the first place and those types of comments are not helpful. As a relatively new person to these forums I'm saying that and I'm sure others may agree. Why do you think many people express surprise? Eating whatever they want doesnt work..
Since you said you’re new at this - let me throw out this perspective. Choosing thick crust pizza is what I did when I weighed 267 lbs. now I weigh 170 on the way to 150. My pizza of choice is either a slice of thick crust, 1/2 a thin crust pie or a lean cuisine 410 cal pizza. Since that is what I will continue to need to choose to maintain my weight, that falls into “what I want”. It’s not a sacrifice or a punishment, it’s my new normal. Not going all or nothing with food choices is the key to loss and maintence.
Let me clarify, I'm NOT new to calorie counting. I have been keeping food journals since I was 18 years old. I'm 35 now. I am pretty knowlegable when it comes to food and nutrition. I am new to these message boards. I'm not suggesting that people go all or nothing. I'm saying that the phrase " whatever you want" is misleading, especially to people who dont have knowledge about food and calories. People new to counting calories dont know how far 1200 or 1500 calories go. They may try eating the same junk foods, realize their calories have quickly run out, end up hungry, and give up. I have had to accept the reality that I can't eat whatever I want. That is a reality for me. It may not be your reality but it is for some people.
There’s a big difference between “whatever you want” and “however MUCH you want”. Try thinking of it that way?
I know there is a difference but a lot of people reading these boards may not. As I mentioned earlier, I asked a few people IRL what they thought of that comment..... They all pretty much said whatever you want is unlimited of what they want.15 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. One piece of thin crust pizza is not " whatever I want". For me it is 2 or 3 slices of regular crust. I'm trying to be realistic here. For the average person eating "whatever" is why they are overweight in the first place and those types of comments are not helpful. As a relatively new person to these forums I'm saying that and I'm sure others may agree. Why do you think many people express surprise? Eating whatever they want doesnt work..
Since you said you’re new at this - let me throw out this perspective. Choosing thick crust pizza is what I did when I weighed 267 lbs. now I weigh 170 on the way to 150. My pizza of choice is either a slice of thick crust, 1/2 a thin crust pie or a lean cuisine 410 cal pizza. Since that is what I will continue to need to choose to maintain my weight, that falls into “what I want”. It’s not a sacrifice or a punishment, it’s my new normal. Not going all or nothing with food choices is the key to loss and maintence.
Let me clarify, I'm NOT new to calorie counting. I have been keeping food journals since I was 18 years old. I'm 35 now. I am pretty knowlegable when it comes to food and nutrition. I am new to these message boards. I'm not suggesting that people go all or nothing. I'm saying that the phrase " whatever you want" is misleading, especially to people who dont have knowledge about food and calories. People new to counting calories dont know how far 1200 or 1500 calories go. They may try eating the same junk foods, realize their calories have quickly run out, end up hungry, and give up. I have had to accept the reality that I can't eat whatever I want. That is a reality for me. It may not be your reality but it is for some people.
There’s a big difference between “whatever you want” and “however MUCH you want”. Try thinking of it that way?
I know there is a difference but a lot of people reading these boards may not. As I mentioned earlier, I asked a few people IRL what they thought of that comment..... They all pretty much said whatever you want is unlimited of what they want.
Do these real life people log their food?10 -
So far it is. The hardest part for me is sticking to my calorie budget without being hungry. That has forced me to eliminate my favorite foods for the most part because they dont fit in my calorie budget.
Ok. Why don't you open your diary and start a new thread and see if there is some advice this forum can give you for helping you with your hunger so you can have more of your favorite foods?
I am being 100 percent serious. There is a chance some of the really smart and experienced people here can give you some ideas with which to experiment.
16 -
So far it is. The hardest part for me is sticking to my calorie budget without being hungry. That has forced me to eliminate my favorite foods for the most part because they dont fit in my calorie budget.
Ok. Why don't you open your diary and start a new thread and see if there is some advice we can give you for helping you with your hunger so you can have more of your favorite foods?
I am being 100 percent serious. There is a chance some of the really smart and experienced people here can give you some ideas with which to experiment.
these are my really general tips for hunger:
1. Make sure that your calorie goals are actually set appropriately. Don't skip this step. A lot of people set goals that are too aggressive and then wonder why they're having a hard time. http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/819055/setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets
2. Try different macros. A lot of people look for foods higher in protein, fat, and fiber. These help us stay full and more satisfied longer. If you're using MFP's default settings, try to consider protein, fat, and fiber as minimums to reach every day rather than maximums to stay below. Others feel better with high volume, higher carb diets (I trend this way during my period, personally). That's okay, too. See what makes you feel best.
3. Drink plenty of fluids. Some people really do confuse thirst and hunger.
4. Get plenty of rest. This includes sleeping enough and taking rest days from the exercise. Sometimes our bodies look for food when they're exhausted.
5. Play around with your meal timings. Some people do really well on 5-6 small meals a day and others feel like they want to gnaw their own arm off eating like that. Skipping breakfast, eating breakfast, 16:8 fasting, 6 small meals, 3 larger meals, snacks, no snacks, meal timing won't make a big difference to your weight loss, but it may help your hunger levels, mood, concentration, gym performance, etc. throughout the day. Don't be afraid to try a different way and see if it helps.
6. Wait it out. If you know you're eating enough and the other steps above aren't helping, you may just have to wait it out. Our bodies send out hunger signals partially out of habit. If you eat at a certain time every day your body will start to get hungry at that time. The good news is that these signals can be retrained to stop telling you to be hungry all the time. The bad news is that you may just have to be hungry for a little bit while that happens.
7. I also think it's important to remember that there's a habitual component to hunger. This goes along with point #6, but if you eat because you're bored or you're used to eating in front of the TV or in the car or whatever it is, then you can replace those habits with others that are better for you. Things like keeping water on hand to sip instead of snacking or picking up hobbies that keep your hands busy or that get you out of the house more can help out a little while you're retraining your hunger cues. You might need to pay attention to why you're eating/hungry or what you're feeling when you eat and try to replace food with other things, but it can be really beneficial over time.10 -
So far it is. The hardest part for me is sticking to my calorie budget without being hungry. That has forced me to eliminate my favorite foods for the most part because they dont fit in my calorie budget.
EXACTLY. But you CAN still eat your FAVOURITE FOODS ONCE IN A WHILE WITHIN YOUR BUDGET.
The point is that in order to lose weight and maintain your weight you have to forge a new reality where instead of literally asking yourself "am I going to order extra large fries AGAIN? I've had fries with every single meal THIS WEEK! I wish McDonald's had some salad"... which is an ACTUAL SELF DIALOGUE I'VE HAD several years ago when they didn't offer salads.... you look through your log and you discover a single small order of fries, a steak sandwich with fries, and an all you can eat fish and chips dinner which involved at least 250g of chips, THIS YEAR.
So eating your favourite foods does not mean having fries every day because then you won't be able to stay within your budget.
Simpez.11 -
And why is it always the poor pizza that gets shamed? I fail to understand what is unhealthy about flour, tomatoes, cheese, vegetables and a little meat all eaten together.17
-
When you mention it, I once talked to someone who had a diet like that. (One. After 15 000 posts and 4 years, I think I have adviced hundreds of people.) People in that category will not phrase their questions like this OP did, and they will get pointers on better nutrition. (That doesn't mean they will be happy, and gratefully set out to eat better. The poor lady mentioned, cried for three hours because I suggested she should eat some real food too.)kommodevaran wrote: »
But we are saying, repeatedly, that "usual portion sizes" has to go.janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. I'm trying to be realistic here.
Given that virtually every post saying "Yes" to OP's question is adding "as long as you're in a deficit" or "as long as you're hitting your calorie goal," I can't agree with your reading that OP is being told she can eat as much as she wants of whatever she wants.
When you're asking different people about this, are you including the context that these discussions are taking place on a calorie counting website? That's pretty crucial context, IMO.
I get not being satisfied with a single serving of something. It's why I don't eat, for example, Swedish Fish, because it's something like 150 calories for 7 fish and that's just not enough for me so I don't eat them. But that doesn't change the fact that I *could* eat Swedish Fish. If you're choosing not to eat pizza because you want more than one piece, that doesn't mean you can't have pizza at all. It means you're *choosing* not to have it. And that's a perfectly rational calculation that lots of people make.
But since OP is asking about having pizza within her calorie goal, we've got to consider that she *does* think it would be worth it (at least she thinks it will be). Why should your feelings about pizza or my feelings about Swedish Fish determined whether or not OP can have pizza or candy often? What's realistic for OP may look completely different than what is realistic for you.
A lot pf people fail trying to stick with their calorie budgets for a reason. Because they realize they can't stick to their budget eating "whatever they want". Thats my point. Some people may be able to make it happen by eating tiny portions. People new to counting calories may see that and think they can eat what they want only to see that their favorite foods have too many calories and then feel misled.
And a lot of people fail to even try to lose weight because they think they can't have pizza, chocolate, or french fries ever.
So why not just let people know how weight loss works and then let them get involved in their own experiments finding out what is worth it and what isn't?
It is ok to encourage people to eat treats in moderation but "whatever you want" is not moderation. Even when mentioning that it must be within their calorie budget, that is misleading because many people cant eat their favorite foods often within their calorie budget or in a portion they would expect.
I would say that eating fries, chocolate, and pizza within quantities that meet one's calorie goal is moderation.
OP could eat these foods often within her calorie goal if she wanted to. Even a calorie goal of 1,200 would allow for, say, a fun-sized candy bar, a piece of pepperoni pizza, and a small bag of french fries daily with 635 calories to spare. And we have no reason to believe that OP is even wanting to eat all these foods within a single day, but we know that she could and still lose weight.
Maybe those serving sizes wouldn't be satisfying to you. That's good information for you when planning your meals, it's irrelevant to OP.
Maybe you would struggle with hunger on a plan that sometimes included those foods. Again, great information for you, not so important for anyone else.
The important thing: if 1,200 calories is a deficit for someone, then eating 635 calories a day plus a fun-sized Snickers, a piece of Papa John's thin crust pepperoni pizza, and a small bag of McDonald's fries would result in weight loss. That's the question OP asked. Are you saying we should say "No" in response to that question?
If you could figure out that pizza doesn't work for you in the context of a deficit, why can't we assume that OP will also figure it out if it is true for her?
She may figure out what works for her. I hope she does. For a lot of people who are new to dieting, sticking with all of their same calorie rich foods and/or their usual portion sizes probably will end in failure though. Most people want to be full and not super hungry at the end of the day. If someone likes no healthy or lower calorie foods, then they will probably have a hard time sticking to their calorie budget eating only rich foods. That's the point I'm trying to make.
People who like no healthy food - do they really exist? Or are they just strawmen?
Is your point that a lot of people are designed to fail at weightloss?
yes they do exist. I have known people who dont eat any fruit or vegetables and live off a diet of exclusively fast food or fried things.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. One piece of thin crust pizza is not " whatever I want". For me it is 2 or 3 slices of regular crust. I'm trying to be realistic here. For the average person eating "whatever" is why they are overweight in the first place and those types of comments are not helpful. As a relatively new person to these forums I'm saying that and I'm sure others may agree. Why do you think many people express surprise? Eating whatever they want doesnt work..
Since you said you’re new at this - let me throw out this perspective. Choosing thick crust pizza is what I did when I weighed 267 lbs. now I weigh 170 on the way to 150. My pizza of choice is either a slice of thick crust, 1/2 a thin crust pie or a lean cuisine 410 cal pizza. Since that is what I will continue to need to choose to maintain my weight, that falls into “what I want”. It’s not a sacrifice or a punishment, it’s my new normal. Not going all or nothing with food choices is the key to loss and maintence.
Let me clarify, I'm NOT new to calorie counting. I have been keeping food journals since I was 18 years old. I'm 35 now. I am pretty knowlegable when it comes to food and nutrition. I am new to these message boards. I'm not suggesting that people go all or nothing. I'm saying that the phrase " whatever you want" is misleading, especially to people who dont have knowledge about food and calories. People new to counting calories dont know how far 1200 or 1500 calories go. They may try eating the same junk foods, realize their calories have quickly run out, end up hungry, and give up. I have had to accept the reality that I can't eat whatever I want. That is a reality for me. It may not be your reality but it is for some people.
There’s a big difference between “whatever you want” and “however MUCH you want”. Try thinking of it that way?
I know there is a difference but a lot of people reading these boards may not. As I mentioned earlier, I asked a few people IRL what they thought of that comment..... They all pretty much said whatever you want is unlimited of what they want.
You don’t think people realize that eating unlimited amounts of whatever they like whenever they want is what made them overweight? What else would it be?13 -
And why is it always the poor pizza that gets shamed? I fail to understand what is unhealthy about flour, tomatoes, cheese, vegetables and a little meat all eaten together.
And how come Ronald McDonald always takes the blame for society's ills? Why do Jack, Carl Jr., Wendy, and the Burger King dude always get a free pass?
FREE RONALD!12 -
And why is it always the poor pizza that gets shamed? I fail to understand what is unhealthy about flour, tomatoes, cheese, vegetables and a little meat all eaten together.
I still maintain that if one absolutely had to go on a monofood diet - just as a thought experiment - pizza would be the best choice. A balance of macros, variety of toppings, and lots of micronutrients.15 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I can't speak for the others but I assume there is quite a bit more to the OP's normal diet than fries, chocolate, pizza, or even "junk" food when I said she could eat whatever she wants.
I think I understand your point of view, but from my perspective fries, chocolate, pizza = junk food
Encouraging the behavior of "eat whatever she wants" may just reinforce making bad food choices.
Learning to eat junk in moderation, say once a week, is a key to success.
Learning to appreciate more healthy choices that you are not accustomed to -like salads- is also key.
Just my thoughts.
Assuming one is meeting one's nutritional needs, why does the frequency of pizza eating matter?
Assuming one is not meeting one's nutritional needs, eating salad daily isn't going to be a magic cure.
I think the overall context of the OP's diet is what is key here, not specific foods she may or may not be eating.
She will lose weight eating anything she likes as long as she is in a calorie deficit. Whether she is in a deficit or not, it's wise to eat in a way that leads to nutritional needs being met. But if she wasn't choosing to do that before, I'm not sure what the benefit is of a hyperfocus on it now.
Will OP be better off if she decides not to lose weight and continues eating as she is now? If OP is overweight, losing weight is still likely to be a net benefit to her health.
(This is assuming she has excess weight and isn't just losing vanity pounds).
Foods like pizza dont fit into MY calorie budget every day. They just don't. In order for me to eat pizza I have to sacrifice an entire meal and only eat 2 meals in a day. I can only eat foods like pizza, ice cream, and other calorie dense foods on days when I have woken up late and gone to bed early, and can be satisfied with only 2 meals. Many people on a calorie budget cant eat whatever they want every day. I have managed to budget small amounts of my favorite foods into my budget twice a week or so by exercising a lot on those particular days. Even then, I am limiting myself a lot. I'm definitely not eating whatever I want because my calorie budget doesnt allow it.
One slice of Papa John's pepperoni pizza on thin crust is 255 calories. That would fit into lunch or dinner for just about any calorie goal. Now that may not be the pizza you prefer and it may not be the quantity that you want, but I guarantee you that if OP wanted it, eating pizza daily would be something she could do and still have three meals a day. Would she possibly need to experiment to ensure she felt full and satisfied? Yes -- but then most of us have had to do that, it's part of being successful and counting calories. Would she eventually decide to have pizza less often because it required compromises she didn't feel like making all the time? Possibly. Again, that's something that has happened to some of us.
I think the disconnect is between people saying "Yes, you can have foods like pizza regularly and still lose weight" and others hearing "Yes, you can eat as much pizza as you want and still lose weight." Nobody is saying that you can eat as much of any food you want and still lose weight.
the phrase " whatever you want" suggests no limits. I asked several different people what they thought of that term since I have seen it thrown around a lot and that seems to be what people think. Most people won't be satisfied with one piece of pizza. I know I'm not. One piece of thin crust pizza is not " whatever I want". For me it is 2 or 3 slices of regular crust. I'm trying to be realistic here. For the average person eating "whatever" is why they are overweight in the first place and those types of comments are not helpful. As a relatively new person to these forums I'm saying that and I'm sure others may agree. Why do you think many people express surprise? Eating whatever they want doesnt work..
Since you said you’re new at this - let me throw out this perspective. Choosing thick crust pizza is what I did when I weighed 267 lbs. now I weigh 170 on the way to 150. My pizza of choice is either a slice of thick crust, 1/2 a thin crust pie or a lean cuisine 410 cal pizza. Since that is what I will continue to need to choose to maintain my weight, that falls into “what I want”. It’s not a sacrifice or a punishment, it’s my new normal. Not going all or nothing with food choices is the key to loss and maintence.
Let me clarify, I'm NOT new to calorie counting. I have been keeping food journals since I was 18 years old. I'm 35 now. I am pretty knowlegable when it comes to food and nutrition. I am new to these message boards. I'm not suggesting that people go all or nothing. I'm saying that the phrase " whatever you want" is misleading, especially to people who dont have knowledge about food and calories. People new to counting calories dont know how far 1200 or 1500 calories go. They may try eating the same junk foods, realize their calories have quickly run out, end up hungry, and give up. I have had to accept the reality that I can't eat whatever I want. That is a reality for me. It may not be your reality but it is for some people.
There’s a big difference between “whatever you want” and “however MUCH you want”. Try thinking of it that way?
I know there is a difference but a lot of people reading these boards may not. As I mentioned earlier, I asked a few people IRL what they thought of that comment..... They all pretty much said whatever you want is unlimited of what they want.
Do these real life people log their food?
I'm not sure. Some of them have lost a lot of weight. I work in a hospital so I asked some of the nurses there that have lost a good amount of weight. I just asked them what they thought of that comment. The people I know that have lost significant weight are not eating junk food all the time. I see their lunches at work, primarily healthy foods and portion sizes.5 -
And how come Ronald McDonald always takes the blame for society's ills? Why do Jack, Carl Jr., Wendy, and the Burger King dude always get a free pass?
FREE RONALD!
That burger king mascot with that plastic head has always seemed a bit freaky to me. I am not sure I would mess with him.
7 -
So far it is. The hardest part for me is sticking to my calorie budget without being hungry. That has forced me to eliminate my favorite foods for the most part because they dont fit in my calorie budget.
Ok. Why don't you open your diary and start a new thread and see if there is some advice this forum can give you for helping you with your hunger so you can have more of your favorite foods?
I am being 100 percent serious. There is a chance some of the really smart and experienced people here can give you some ideas with which to experiment.
I thought about it but it seems a lot of people in this message board are very judgemental. I mean in this message board people have accused me of condemning the OP and suggesting an elimination diet which I never did.15
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