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Calorie deniers
Replies
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L1zardQueen wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »I notice that it is always about CI vs CO and the law of thermodynamics however the way that insulin regulates fat storage and the ability to access that fat is never invited to the party.
Inviting the insulin theory of obesity to an evidence-based party is like labeling Disney princess movies as non-fiction. Fung gets the pity invite, at best.
But Pocahontas!
Keep it up and you'll be relegated to the corner with Fung.
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nutmegoreo wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »I notice that it is always about CI vs CO and the law of thermodynamics however the way that insulin regulates fat storage and the ability to access that fat is never invited to the party.
Inviting the insulin theory of obesity to an evidence-based party is like labeling Disney princess movies as non-fiction. Fung gets the pity invite, at best.
But Pocahontas!
Keep it up and you'll be relegated to the corner with Fung.
She's my great great great great great aunt. Fung is not related to me at all. 5 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »I notice that it is always about CI vs CO and the law of thermodynamics however the way that insulin regulates fat storage and the ability to access that fat is never invited to the party.
Inviting the insulin theory of obesity to an evidence-based party is like labeling Disney princess movies as non-fiction. Fung gets the pity invite, at best.
Party? I feel am just waiting for Fung to be labeled the turd in the punch bowl.3 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »I notice that it is always about CI vs CO and the law of thermodynamics however the way that insulin regulates fat storage and the ability to access that fat is never invited to the party.
Inviting the insulin theory of obesity to an evidence-based party is like labeling Disney princess movies as non-fiction. Fung gets the pity invite, at best.
Party? I feel am just waiting for Fung to be labeled the turd in the punch bowl.
I wasn't going to say it...3 -
I honestly wish some people on here had seen the "welcome" Fung got when he tried to crash the ISSN "party" over on Facebook.
And not for mean-spirited reasons. But to see honest opinions of Fung from evidence based researchers.
For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was roasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
I'm saying all this to say that it's not "bias" against anything but disinformation. Lyle McDonald is well respected by most of us evidence-based posters, and he wrote a book about keto with sound information in it that I'd doubt anyone would get any pushback for quoting.7 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I honestly wish some people on here had seen the "welcome" Fung got when he tried to crash the ISSN "party" over on Facebook.
And not for mean-spirited reasons. But to see honest opinions of Fung from evidence based researchers.
For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
I'm saying all this to say that it's not "bias" against anything but disinformation. Lyle McDonald is well respected by most of us evidence-based posters, and he wrote a book about keto with sound information in it that I'd doubt anyone would get any pushback for quoting.
I think Lyle's The Ketogenic Diet book doesn't get the love because he wrote it from a factual, evidence-based point of view and didn't include enough magical, miraculous promises. Too bad, because it's probably the best, most objective reference on ketogenic dieting in existence. He's also authored four other books which all include some kind of CKD/TKD aspect in their methodology.9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
Toasted or roasted? Toasted sounds positive to me.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I honestly wish some people on here had seen the "welcome" Fung got when he tried to crash the ISSN "party" over on Facebook.
And not for mean-spirited reasons. But to see honest opinions of Fung from evidence based researchers.
For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
I'm saying all this to say that it's not "bias" against anything but disinformation. Lyle McDonald is well respected by most of us evidence-based posters, and he wrote a book about keto with sound information in it that I'd doubt anyone would get any pushback for quoting.
I think Lyle's The Ketogenic Diet book doesn't get the love because he wrote it from a factual, evidence-based point of view and didn't include enough magical, miraculous promises. Too bad, because it's probably the best, most objective reference on ketogenic dieting in existence. He's also authored four other books which all include some kind of CKD/TKD aspect in their methodology.
People don't want factual, evidence-based. They want Dr. Punchbowl's tweets that it cures cancer, enables you to live to 120 y/o, cures your arthritis, bursitis, aches, pains, and allergies, helps you find your lost shotgun, gets your mom released from prison, and causes your wife to leave that doctor she ran off with and return to you.16 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
Toasted or roasted? Toasted sounds positive to me.
Typo. Roasted.1 -
I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.16
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koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.7 -
koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I honestly wish some people on here had seen the "welcome" Fung got when he tried to crash the ISSN "party" over on Facebook.
And not for mean-spirited reasons. But to see honest opinions of Fung from evidence based researchers.
For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
I'm saying all this to say that it's not "bias" against anything but disinformation. Lyle McDonald is well respected by most of us evidence-based posters, and he wrote a book about keto with sound information in it that I'd doubt anyone would get any pushback for quoting.
I think Lyle's The Ketogenic Diet book doesn't get the love because he wrote it from a factual, evidence-based point of view and didn't include enough magical, miraculous promises. Too bad, because it's probably the best, most objective reference on ketogenic dieting in existence. He's also authored four other books which all include some kind of CKD/TKD aspect in their methodology.
People don't want factual, evidence-based. They want Dr. Punchbowl's tweets that it cures cancer, enables you to live to 120 y/o, cures your arthritis, bursitis, aches, pains, and allergies, helps you find your lost shotgun, gets your mom released from prison, and causes your wife to leave that doctor she ran off with and return to you.
Well, it's one thing to anecdotally say that eating a way you choose makes you feel good. I'm all for that. If anyone finds a way of eating that optimizes something for them? That's awesome.
The way I eat is optimized for me too. So I get that.
What really, really gets my goat is the need (tying this back to the topic of the thread) to play a shell game with all of it. How many people who've just been exposed to what Fung is spouting come on here and regurgitate that calories in/out is "disproven" and "outmoded" science and it's all "hormones" and "insulin" and then act sorry for those of us who lost all our weight 3 or 4 years ago using that disproven science!
How many people are being led astray by this guy and guys like him? And with him, it's not just keto being magic, he wants you to think IF is magic, calorie restriction is evil and will actively harm you long term (while at the same time trying to say that it doesn't work except short term) and a host of other dishonest and flat out wrong information.
It's sad and infuriating.17 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
Toasted or roasted? Toasted sounds positive to me.
Substitute imagery: Marshmallow on a stick, over flames. Pretty close to what happened on FB, IIRC.
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janejellyroll wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?
Intuitive eating is the seemingly best approach to a healthy life. While a diet focuses on weight, inituive eating focuses on healing an unhealthy relationship with food. This means no denying yourself food when you’re hungry, even if you’ve “run out of calories for the day”, but it also means choosing healthy foods most of the time, and those more tempting foods sometimes. There’s plenty of books if you’re sick of dieting and want to look at a long term approach to loving and honoring your body!
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L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
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Tacklewasher wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »For all the people on here who think we lay people have a bias against Fung, you ain't seen nothing! He was toasted by people who actually do know what they're talking about.
Toasted or roasted? Toasted sounds positive to me.
Substitute imagery: Marshmallow on a stick, over flames. Pretty close to what happened on FB, IIRC.
I was seeing this type of toasting. :drinker:2 -
Sorry, but intuitive eating took me to obesity-level III. Calorie counting has taken off 107lbs. And along the way, I've learned the foods that keep me satiated, and pace myself so I don't run out of calories. I'm not sure where you get the idea that those of us who count calories don't want to eat healthy or want to cut out "more tempting foods". I can only speak for myself, but I find ways to eat both, all keeping to a calorie deficit. So far, so good.16
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learners0permit wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?
Intuitive eating is the seemingly best approach to a healthy life. While a diet focuses on weight, inituive eating focuses on healing an unhealthy relationship with food. This means no denying yourself food when you’re hungry, even if you’ve “run out of calories for the day”, but it also means choosing healthy foods most of the time, and those more tempting foods sometimes. There’s plenty of books if you’re sick of dieting and want to look at a long term approach to loving and honoring your body!
My intuition made me 210 pounds. My cholesterol was out of control and it was unhealthy for my arthritic joints.
I don't intuitively manage my finances, and see no reason to have a moral imperative to feel that my food intake should be any different than my finances. There's no purity standard to uphold, only preference depending on your goals and what you want.
For some people, intuitive eating might fix their food issues. For others, close monitoring and control is a better answer to a life-long struggle.
Issues surrounding food and people are varied and complicated. There's no one single solution for everyone.
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learners0permit wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?
Intuitive eating is the seemingly best approach to a healthy life. While a diet focuses on weight, inituive eating focuses on healing an unhealthy relationship with food. This means no denying yourself food when you’re hungry, even if you’ve “run out of calories for the day”, but it also means choosing healthy foods most of the time, and those more tempting foods sometimes. There’s plenty of books if you’re sick of dieting and want to look at a long term approach to loving and honoring your body!
This reads like your opinion. Given that you say the research doesn't show calorie counting to be sustainable, what research shows that intuitive eating is more successful for long term weight loss?10 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Sorry, but intuitive eating took me to obesity-level III. Calorie counting has taken off 107lbs. And along the way, I've learned the foods that keep me satiated, and pace myself so I don't run out of calories. I'm not sure where you get the idea that those of us who count calories don't want to eat healthy or want to cut out "more tempting foods". I can only speak for myself, but I find ways to eat both, all keeping to a calorie deficit. So far, so good.
And I am so happy that this is working for you! It’s amazing how different people are and somethings may work for you and something don’t work for others. I’m simply stating what research shows. Personally, I have lost weight by calorie counting. I haven’t been able to fully commit to an intuitive eating lifestyle.
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learners0permit wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?
Intuitive eating is the seemingly best approach to a healthy life. While a diet focuses on weight, inituive eating focuses on healing an unhealthy relationship with food. This means no denying yourself food when you’re hungry, even if you’ve “run out of calories for the day”, but it also means choosing healthy foods most of the time, and those more tempting foods sometimes. There’s plenty of books if you’re sick of dieting and want to look at a long term approach to loving and honoring your body!
That sounds a heck of a lot like how I got 20 lbs overweight in the first place
I didn't have an unhealthy relationship with food. I just ate a little bit too much, every day, over 10 years or so. Calorie counting helped me stop eating that little bit extra. It helped me see where I was wasting calories. It helped me see I was accidentally eating pretty low protein, and sometimes low fiber. It made it easier to correct that.
I was hardly ever hungry while I was losing weight here. And I eat much "healthier" now that I can see everything in black & white.
I don't have an intuitive relationship with my bank account either. I have to keep track of that stuff or drift off course.8 -
learners0permit wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
Research shows around a 20% success rate for all forms of weight loss per attempt.
That's a better success rate than smoking cessation per attempt. Ponder that.8 -
learners0permit wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
Most of the veterans posting here have been maintaining several years, I'm not sure how many are over 5 yet.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »learners0permit wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
Research shows around a 20% success rate for all forms of weight loss per attempt.
That's a better success rate than smoking cessation per attempt. Ponder that.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your research from? I’m finding a 5+ pound weight gain from their original weight after each diet a person goes on after about a year. I’m not denying weight loss methods short term, but long term.1 -
@cmriverside She’s been at this a while.2
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learners0permit wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »learners0permit wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
Research shows around a 20% success rate for all forms of weight loss per attempt.
That's a better success rate than smoking cessation per attempt. Ponder that.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your research from? I’m finding a 5+ pound weight gain from their original weight after each diet a person goes on after about a year. I’m not denying weight loss methods short term, but long term.
There's a fair amount of information at the National Weight Control Registry:
http://www.nwcr.ws/7 -
learners0permit wrote: »estherdragonbat wrote: »Sorry, but intuitive eating took me to obesity-level III. Calorie counting has taken off 107lbs. And along the way, I've learned the foods that keep me satiated, and pace myself so I don't run out of calories. I'm not sure where you get the idea that those of us who count calories don't want to eat healthy or want to cut out "more tempting foods". I can only speak for myself, but I find ways to eat both, all keeping to a calorie deficit. So far, so good.
And I am so happy that this is working for you! It’s amazing how different people are and somethings may work for you and something don’t work for others. I’m simply stating what research shows. Personally, I have lost weight by calorie counting. I haven’t been able to fully commit to an intuitive eating lifestyle.
But it doesn't show that. In fact, the National Weight Loss Control registry participants all have some way of controlling their intake to maintain their weight. Some log food. Some are calorie "aware". Some use dietary restriction like cutting out food groups to keep calories in control. Some use portion awareness and control.10 -
learners0permit wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
Given how daunting the statistics on long term weight loss are, what do you determine has been found to be sustainable?
Intuitive eating is the seemingly best approach to a healthy life. While a diet focuses on weight, inituive eating focuses on healing an unhealthy relationship with food. This means no denying yourself food when you’re hungry, even if you’ve “run out of calories for the day”, but it also means choosing healthy foods most of the time, and those more tempting foods sometimes. There’s plenty of books if you’re sick of dieting and want to look at a long term approach to loving and honoring your body!
That sounds a heck of a lot like how I got 20 lbs overweight in the first place
I didn't have an unhealthy relationship with food. I just ate a little bit too much, every day, over 10 years or so. Calorie counting helped me stop eating that little bit extra. It helped me see where I was wasting calories. It helped me see I was accidentally eating pretty low protein, and sometimes low fiber. It made it easier to correct that.
I was hardly ever hungry while I was losing weight here. And I eat much "healthier" now that I can see everything in black & white.
I don't have an intuitive relationship with my bank account either. I have to keep track of that stuff or drift off course.
I think we may be losing sight of what intuitive eating is. Look at children, if you give them options to healthy foods and unhealthy foods throughout their childhood they will chose what they need to grow. They will also eat as much as they are hungry for and not much more. This is the basis of intuitive eating. While intuitive eating sounds like an easy concept to grasp, it’s not when you’ve disabled yourself from listening to your body.24 -
learners0permit wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »learners0permit wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »koppimaggie wrote: »I think calorie counting is another form of dieting. It may work short term, but research doesn’t show it to be sustainable for long term weight loss.
How so? Lots of long term successful people here on MFP.
I’m more speaking of what research shows. I’m not sure the statistics of how many people keep off the weight for 5+ years just on this app.
Research shows around a 20% success rate for all forms of weight loss per attempt.
That's a better success rate than smoking cessation per attempt. Ponder that.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your research from? I’m finding a 5+ pound weight gain from their original weight after each diet a person goes on after about a year. I’m not denying weight loss methods short term, but long term.
That's still success. Especially when you've lost a large chunk of weight.
Where is the research you're reading?
Here's my main source, but I've read others.
nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm
Edit: Nutty kitteh beat me to it!5
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