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Body Positive Movement - For or against?
Replies
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Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉22 -
Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
The discussion is worth the time, it's not worth the time here where it will likely be closed down again for juvenile reasons within short order. likely when people will inevitably reach an impasse and will just start talking past eachother, taking great offense to even non inflammatory statements along the way. And the mod team is much more likely to exercise the nuclear option, in truly idiotic fashion.
It's not worth the time to try to have nuanced debate in this climate.
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Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.5 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.6 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!4 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!
Lots of different topics get closed but that doesn't mean that the topic itself is discouraged. What is discouraged is being disrespectful of others and I think MFP is pretty clear about that. There have been far more keto discussions shut down than this one, yet the greatest volume of discussion still seems to be about keto.7 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!
Lots of different topics get closed but that doesn't mean that the topic itself is discouraged. What is discouraged is being disrespectful of others and I think MFP is pretty clear about that. There have been far more keto discussions shut down than this one, yet the greatest volume of discussion still seems to be about keto.
I am including those keto debates. I mean actual nuanced debate in general.
The first option shouldn't be closing down threads. Why waste the time even having debate if they plan to throw out the baby with the bathwater?0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
That's true lol. Maybe it has to do with the fact that a "way of eating" that has a lot of controversy surrounding it is easier to find info on, good or bad vs a topic that essentially highlights how capable people are of manipulating/verbally demeaning others? Much more subjective.
I don't know Mike. There's a lot to discuss here, but no really solid solutions other than hey, how about we just be nice to each other. That's a tall order sometimes though.
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Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!
Lots of different topics get closed but that doesn't mean that the topic itself is discouraged. What is discouraged is being disrespectful of others and I think MFP is pretty clear about that. There have been far more keto discussions shut down than this one, yet the greatest volume of discussion still seems to be about keto.
I am including those keto debates. I mean actual nuanced debate in general.
The first option shouldn't be closing down threads. Why waste the time even having debate if they plan to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
So . . . you're in this discussion - multiple posts worth - just to say that we shouldn't bother to have this discussion?
Sure, that makes sense.
On topic: Body positivity? Good. VeryVery good. Bodies are cool, and it's much easier to live if one has one, so they're worth valuing for that reason alone. I would wish that everyone could find some joy and value in the one they have. If one thinks of one's own as less than ideal, improvement is possible in many ways for most folks, and can be a worthwhile investment of energy.
Once things become "a movement", the fringes can get a little weird. Some of the weird fringe bits (of this or any movement) kinda make me eye-roll.13 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!
Lots of different topics get closed but that doesn't mean that the topic itself is discouraged. What is discouraged is being disrespectful of others and I think MFP is pretty clear about that. There have been far more keto discussions shut down than this one, yet the greatest volume of discussion still seems to be about keto.
I am including those keto debates. I mean actual nuanced debate in general.
The first option shouldn't be closing down threads. Why waste the time even having debate if they plan to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
So . . . you're in this discussion - multiple posts worth - just to say that we shouldn't bother to have this discussion?
Sure, that makes sense.
On topic: Body positivity? Good. VeryVery good. Bodies are cool, and it's much easier to live if one has one, so they're worth valuing for that reason alone. I would wish that everyone could find some joy and value in the one they have. If one thinks of one's own as less than ideal, improvement is possible in many ways for most folks, and can be a worthwhile investment of energy.
Once things become "a movement", the fringes can get a little weird. Some of the weird fringe bits (of this or any movement) kinda make me eye-roll.
The irony is not lost, but the point stands hahaha
I don't really want to engage with the topic anymore because I don't want to spend 20 minutes typing out my thoughts over again on a phone keyboard. Why would I if they keep nukeing it?0 -
I'm a libertarian... so do as you please as long as you dont mess with me and mine...9
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Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
All of this. Plus there's only like one of these type discussion posts for every 200 of the "Anyone doing Keto?" posts. 😉
They're rare because they keep closing them down. The site actively discourages debate of this nature, regardless of them having a debate section. So why even have it here is what I'm saying.
I haven't seen the site discouraging these kinds of discussions or all that many even start. On average, keto discussions probably cause more controversy (although most don't).
I think it has been a useful discussion.
They discourage them by closing them. I'm glad you guys are having fun with it though. They have closed down specifically this topic twice since I've been here, but maybe it will be different this time.
Enjoy!
Lots of different topics get closed but that doesn't mean that the topic itself is discouraged. What is discouraged is being disrespectful of others and I think MFP is pretty clear about that. There have been far more keto discussions shut down than this one, yet the greatest volume of discussion still seems to be about keto.
I am including those keto debates. I mean actual nuanced debate in general.
The first option shouldn't be closing down threads. Why waste the time even having debate if they plan to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
So . . . you're in this discussion - multiple posts worth - just to say that we shouldn't bother to have this discussion?
Sure, that makes sense.
On topic: Body positivity? Good. VeryVery good. Bodies are cool, and it's much easier to live if one has one, so they're worth valuing for that reason alone. I would wish that everyone could find some joy and value in the one they have. If one thinks of one's own as less than ideal, improvement is possible in many ways for most folks, and can be a worthwhile investment of energy.
Once things become "a movement", the fringes can get a little weird. Some of the weird fringe bits (of this or any movement) kinda make me eye-roll.
The irony is not lost, but the point stands hahaha
I don't really want to engage with the topic anymore because I don't want to spend 20 minutes typing out my thoughts over again on a phone keyboard. Why would I if they keep nukeing it?
In just the two most recent pages of threads in debate, mostly about this general topic area (a little broader than current thread, but similar neighborhood & commentary), and not closed:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10732519/large-restaurant-customers-need-special-accommodation
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10727242/why-do-people-think-you-can-be-healthy-at-every-size
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Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »What is the point of this thread on this site? It's already been opened a couple times since I've been browsing the forums here. Someone is fruitlessly going to get offended by some assinine, likely unrelated, nonsense and it's going to be closed again within 2 weeks. This unto itself kind of proves a point that people are too sensitive when it comes to self image to actually have a nuanced discussion. Might as well not waste the time.
I don't think it's a waste of time as a debate topic, especially when so many people don't even agree on what the movement stands for. I keep it pretty simple in that I know that Body dysmorphic disorder is a real thing, unrealistic marketing tactics targeting young folks mostly is a real thing, people hammering and abusing other people over appearance alone, whether obese or not.
Older more mature folks deal with insecurities to any degree over their appearance, but young women and men often have no idea that it's ok to accept themselves as they are. My youngest daughter was one of them. She is not and never was obese. She went through hell at the hands of other girls in high school. Another friend of mine, years before this movement ever became a thing, was a model, and physically she was a stunner. Athletic and beautiful and she was relentlessly hammered by both her employer and other women - too skinny, too muscular, too this or that.
Just my 2 cents, but this is worth discussing. I believe everyone has an intrinsic value apart from appearance and that value is under attack.
Others hijacking an effort to show men and women that they have value regardless of appearance shouldn't negate the good message that people who would never win a beauty contest can be every bit as beautiful, or more....than some of those who can.
I think it's very worth the discussion.
The discussion is worth the time, it's not worth the time here where it will likely be closed down again for juvenile reasons within short order. likely when people will inevitably reach an impasse and will just start talking past eachother, taking great offense to even non inflammatory statements along the way. And the mod team is much more likely to exercise the nuclear option, in truly idiotic fashion.
It's not worth the time to try to have nuanced debate in this climate.
We used to just close down topics with a reminder and let people walk away to rethink their decisions, but as you said, all that got us was a repeat of the same behavior. Warning and banning people is much more effective, which is what we're doing when the topic is temporarily closed.7 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »I don't worry about other people's health, unless they're very close to me (and I'm lucky not to have to worry about any of my family it friends). Other people are allowed to make their own choices about food and exercise, and they're allowed to have different priorities too. I guess that makes me indifferent.
In the wild west of the late 1800s this is true. Make bad choices, die early and the buzzards take care of the carcass
Fast forward to 2019 medical costs are out of control and these costs are in some way shared by everyone. Read somewhere obesity is pretty directly tied to 10% of US medical spending. It is an issue that impacts you.
I always wonder about this kind of statement. When people are in poor health and die young, do they not actually cost the medical system less than someone who lives to 90? Especially if that 90 year old engaged in healthy physical activity that resulted in injuries that caused him/her to seek medical treatment. Where I play tennis the courts are filled with people who have had knee replacements, necessitated because of sports injuries. I wonder how the other 90% of medical spending is broken down.4 -
goldthistime wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »I don't worry about other people's health, unless they're very close to me (and I'm lucky not to have to worry about any of my family it friends). Other people are allowed to make their own choices about food and exercise, and they're allowed to have different priorities too. I guess that makes me indifferent.
In the wild west of the late 1800s this is true. Make bad choices, die early and the buzzards take care of the carcass
Fast forward to 2019 medical costs are out of control and these costs are in some way shared by everyone. Read somewhere obesity is pretty directly tied to 10% of US medical spending. It is an issue that impacts you.
I always wonder about this kind of statement. When people are in poor health and die young, do they not actually cost the medical system less than someone who lives to 90? Especially if that 90 year old engaged in healthy physical activity that resulted in injuries that caused him/her to seek medical treatment. Where I play tennis the courts are filled with people who have had knee replacements, necessitated because of sports injuries. I wonder how the other 90% of medical spending is broken down.
A knee replacement is around $50k. Check out the cost of diabetes (and it's related issues), heart disease, and other medical issues associate with obesity. Most likely the older active people with knee replacement aren't suffering from these much more expensive issues or at least not to the same extent.4 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »I don't worry about other people's health, unless they're very close to me (and I'm lucky not to have to worry about any of my family it friends). Other people are allowed to make their own choices about food and exercise, and they're allowed to have different priorities too. I guess that makes me indifferent.
In the wild west of the late 1800s this is true. Make bad choices, die early and the buzzards take care of the carcass
Fast forward to 2019 medical costs are out of control and these costs are in some way shared by everyone. Read somewhere obesity is pretty directly tied to 10% of US medical spending. It is an issue that impacts you.
I always wonder about this kind of statement. When people are in poor health and die young, do they not actually cost the medical system less than someone who lives to 90? Especially if that 90 year old engaged in healthy physical activity that resulted in injuries that caused him/her to seek medical treatment. Where I play tennis the courts are filled with people who have had knee replacements, necessitated because of sports injuries. I wonder how the other 90% of medical spending is broken down.
A knee replacement is around $50k. Check out the cost of diabetes (and it's related issues), heart disease, and other medical issues associate with obesity. Most likely the older active people with knee replacement aren't suffering from these much more expensive issues or at least not to the same extent.
Meanwhile various congenital issues (including type 1 diabetes and various heart defects), alzheimer's, treatment for mental health issues, cancer treatment, epilepsy...
Taking the myopic view isn't really the best in terms of healthcare spending in the US. Nevermind that maybe the US government could look to other countries for ideas. The US' arguably least favorite neighbor in the Caribbean (Cuba) is has been doing a shockingly good job of things since their most recent revolution - and that's despite "wide spread poverty" (as one article in The Atlantic put it). Their infant mortality rate is also lower than the US'. There are plenty of other countries that the US has a better relationship with that have very good healthcare systems that spend far less on their patients, including their patients with chronic diseases that aren't at all related to obesity.8 -
Of course body positivity is a good thing. Everyone should be encouraged to love themselves with the body they have. Personally I think it applies to every body, it is not only geared towards fat women, and it's not the same as promoting obesity, or the "healthy at every size" thing.
It's ok for an overweight woman to wear a bikini to the pool just like it is for a thin woman to. Anyone who has a body and goes to the beach has a "beach body". It goes the other way too though. An example that really annoyed me was that "all about the bass" song, where so many women thought it was such an awesome "body positive" song, when in reality, it's not body positive at all. It's positive towards women with a lot of curves, but it's negative towards women who don't. We are all shaped differently, and we should all be accepted and able to feel good about ourselves.11 -
bobshuckleberry wrote: »You have to love yourself in order to respect and improve yourself. Sometimes change starts with finding what you like about yourself and expanding on that.
No one has the right to look down on anyone. If all anyone ever feels is negativity from themselves and the world around them they will never be in the right mindset to make meaningful lasting change.
Embrace yourself, embrace others, it does not mean that you continue bad habits or get stuck, it means you can love yourself while you are getting healthier.
No one has the right to judge anyone, especially not from an outside appearance. Lift them up, help them along, be a good example, try to involve them in positive activities, yes.
But we do have the right to look down on others and to judge others. (Indeed, you are looking down upon and judging the judgers with your remark.) We all have the right to think whatever we want. Treating someone poorly is another thing. You can think someone is behaving foolishly or wrongly and still treat them with love and kindness.1 -
I am for it. My wife is overweight and she tries real hard to lose. But she does not need to have anybody making her feel like crap. Everyone who is fat knows they are fat. And it is 100% up to them to take action on it or to not take action on it. Its not up to us fit people to fat shame or point out to overweight people what they already know about themselves.
Look at it this way:there are a whole lot of dumb people around nowadays too. But do we go around and point it out to them ?17 -
I don't believe in body shaming or body positive. Each persons body is their own.
That being said, telling people who are overweight, that it's ok being fat, is not good, your telling them, they are fine as they are, but their not, you can't be at your best health and be fat.
Some people who are overweight hold their own pretty good, their numbers are good and except for the number on the scale, their health is good, but it won't last, at some point their luck will run out.
I have always been overweight, my whole family is, I was one of those "overweight healthy people", then I hit 35 and it went down hill from there, I got HBP, my cholesterol went up, my asthma got worse, even though my weight didn't change.
I've been told many times, if I love my body, I'll want to take care of it better, no, if I love my body as is, then why change? I love it as is, hence I'll stay fat. But nobody better tell me I'm fat and need to lose weight either....
Unless your my doctor, or I ask your opinion, keep your mouth shut whether I'm too fat or too skinning. Only I can comment on the size of my body.11 -
I've body shamed myself a time or two.
( It worked too. )
I put a handwritten note to myself on the refrigerator door that was rather motivating (and insulting) that had me closing the refrigerator door and then going to the gym.
That being said, there's no reason to call out anyone over their appearance.
Most everyone has a demon or two, some are just more obvious to the naked eye than others.14 -
Motorsheen wrote: »I've body shamed myself a time or two.
( It worked too. )
I put a handwritten note to myself on the refrigerator door that was rather motivating (and insulting) that had me closing the refrigerator door and then going to the gym.
That being said, there's no reason to call out anyone over their appearance.
Most everyone has a demon or two, some are just more obvious to the naked eye than others.
Quoted for amplification.
All those people who shamed me 'for my own good' - none of them thought that I might have more pressing issues. Like, say, the chronic severe depression that had almost killed me on several occasions.
Imagine how much actual good it did my health - or just my basic chances of survival - to be shamed for my weight. Go on. I'll wait.20 -
I believe body positivity was originally intended to help those who had been "disfigured" such as by an accident. I think this is a wonderful goal.
I do feel empathy for people who are subscribers to this movement in its popular iteration-accepting fat people. The world is harsh and body criticisms are intense, and they are reacting to this. I think it shows the importance of encouraging people instead of shaming them. Emphasize healthy habits and progress. Who wants to go for a walk when they feel too self-conscious to go outside? Who wants to join the swim team when they think they'll be made fun of for being chubby in their speedo? Who wants to join the track team when they think they're too slow? What teenager wants to grab the salad when they worry their friends will rag on them? The "Positivity" should be in encouraging healthy behaviors and not shaming people in their pursuits. Not in encouraging super unhealthy habits...
I don't think the movement should be used as an excuse to fly off the rails or to not care about health, which I worry is often the case- that is has been warped by some people...
Other commenters have made some really interesting points. That you don't know how far someone has come... Watching Family by the Ton or My 600 Pound Life really makes you feel for their struggles and proud of their triumphs.
I guess a good rule of thumb is just to try to not be rude or antagonize people. I think that's the root of the issue...Maybe there's a run in gym class and people are being rude to the big kid... well, that doesn't offer him a good environment to complete the run and feel good about himself...8 -
As a health coach, I have been able to see how being "Body Positive" can be very beneficial to taking better care of yourself. You have to be grateful for what you have before you can move on in a lot of circumstances. The stress of beating yourself up about your weight can be as detrimental to your goals of gaining or losing weight as your food and exercise. I do not agree with being "Body Positive" while choosing to also be unhealthy when there are things you can do to change your health. As a small person that others have always viewed as healthy, I know first hand that what you see on the outside is not in direct correlation to what is going on inside.8
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Yes--fat acceptance is a good thing. The people who are able to achieve total fat acceptance in their minds are my heros. The vast majority of people who attempt to lose weight end up gaining it back, so to feel good in your own body no matter what your size is important. Your body does everything for you, so why not love it as-is? Fat people get so much hate and it has nothing to do with the moving target called "health".
Why am I here, then? Because people are judgemental (lol, look at the comments in this thread alone). I'm losing so that I can one day avoid negative judgment from fatphobic people (and, whew! There are *a lot* and not all of them are thin). I love fat people--we are awesome and we do what we can to survive in a hostile world. If I could live somewhere without all the hate and negativity regarding body size, I would be content to stay fat. I'm choosing to lose so I have one less target on my back--and because it's the only thing I can change about me so that people can see *me* and not the body. In all likelihood I'll gain back whatever I lose, but for now I'm trying again. This will probably be the last time I do this. If I "fail", so what? No matter what happens I'll come out of this stronger than I am now.16 -
ISmellDairyQueen wrote: »Yes--fat acceptance is a good thing. The people who are able to achieve total fat acceptance in their minds are my heros. The vast majority of people who attempt to lose weight end up gaining it back, so to feel good in your own body no matter what your size is important. Your body does everything for you, so why not love it as-is? Fat people get so much hate and it has nothing to do with the moving target called "health".
Why am I here, then? Because people are judgemental (lol, look at the comments in this thread alone). I'm losing so that I can one day avoid negative judgment from fatphobic people (and, whew! There are *a lot* and not all of them are thin). I love fat people--we are awesome and we do what we can to survive in a hostile world. If I could live somewhere without all the hate and negativity regarding body size, I would be content to stay fat. I'm choosing to lose so I have one less target on my back--and because it's the only thing I can change about me so that people can see *me* and not the body. In all likelihood I'll gain back whatever I lose, but for now I'm trying again. This will probably be the last time I do this. If I "fail", so what? No matter what happens I'll come out of this stronger than I am now.
Why not choose to lose weight to improve your health markers instead?14 -
Hey, to each their own, but I was always miserable being obese (100 lbs overweight). I couldn't even walk up my stairs without getting winded and my heart feeling like it was coming out of my chest! Seeing my Dad deteriorate over his last 20 years of his life with heart disease and diabetes was NOT a POSITIVE thing! He eventually lost both his legs and all of his bodily functions and mobility. I'm choosing to take back my life! I will be 55 this Dec and that is the same age my Dad had his first heart attack. My Dad passed away a year ago this month. I loved my Dad but don't want to end up like him! That was a miserable existence for him and for all of us that had to witness it!13
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I am all for the body positive movement. I think some people are always caught in a cycle of self hatred no matter the number on the scale and believe everyone else should be too. So a happy, self positive fat person shouldn't exist in their reality. Because let's face it the whole push back for the movement is not some overwhelming concern for the health of complete strangers. It is the ability to be happy and content with who you are whether or not you decide to make changes. But no the ire is fat people with or without health issues should not be happier than skin, athletic people.6
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Based solely on my own experience with the movement, I believe it is more harmful than good. I’m sure it was started with good intentions, but it’s very rare that the movement (again, this is just in my experience) promotes sensible information or ideas. It’s basically society finding a new way to ignore health and obsess over appearance.
That said, there’s no need to be a dick to someone simply because you think they’re too big or small. Odds are they already know they have a problem, and treating them like crap isn’t going to change that (and who are we kidding? We all have our flaws.)7 -
Is the anorexic healthy and 'not costing the health system'? No.
Is the person recovering from bowel cancer healthy and 'not costing the health system'? No.
Is the person with profound depression following bereavement healthy and 'not costing the health system'? No.
We have to stop seeing 'thin' as 'good', 'fat' as 'bad'. Humanity is so much more nuanced than we generally understand unless we've accumulated significant life experience.9
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