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Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
I can actually attest to this. For some years I have silently examined (from a distance) the seating possibilities whenever I go places, so that I can determine which would be the least embarrassing for me to sit in. I carry a lot of my excess weight in my thighs and butt, so when I sit down it all spreads. Trust me, I do *not* enjoy having to sit in the bigger chairs just so that I can sit somewhat pain-free.
It embarrasses me that I have to do so. It makes me feel ashamed that I am at the level that I need to do that. As far as the other chairs are concerned, it does *not* make me feel motivated to do something about it when I have to sit in the so-called "normal-sized" chairs. All it does is make me feel even worse about myself and makes me not want to go anywhere because I never know if I will be able to comfortably sit down if I need to!
Having those bigger chairs available for me to use does not make me feel happy or accept the weight/size that I'm at, either. It is my own honest opinion that only people who have never struggled with a large amount of weight would even imply such a thing.31 -
jafinnearty wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
The chairs DO need to change or at least some need to be provided. Some obese people will be in quite a bit of discomfort standing for long periods of time. That is unless you want all the fatties to stay at home so you don't have to see them.
I assure you that while the obese person will appreciate a place to sit they will not like sitting in a special chair.
I can actually attest to this. For some years I have silently examined (from a distance) the seating possibilities whenever I go places, so that I can determine which would be the least embarrassing for me to sit in. I carry a lot of my excess weight in my thighs and butt, so when I sit down it all spreads. Trust me, I do *not* enjoy having to sit in the bigger chairs just so that I can sit somewhat pain-free.
It embarrasses me that I have to do so. It makes me feel ashamed that I am at the level that I need to do that. As far as the other chairs are concerned, it does *not* make me feel motivated to do something about it when I have to sit in the so-called "normal-sized" chairs. All it does is make me feel even worse about myself and makes me not want to go anywhere because I never know if I will be able to comfortably sit down if I need to!
Having those bigger chairs available for me to use does not make me feel happy or accept the weight/size that I'm at, either. It is my own honest opinion that only people who have never struggled with a large amount of weight would even imply such a thing.
Or people who enjoy fat shaming but are trying to do it at MFP in a not-so-subtle way.22 -
I don't think it's a moral and upstanding thing to make obese people feel bad about themselves. The idea that making people uncomfortable will improve their lives in the long run ... like fat shaming makes you a superhero ... it's pretty sanctimonious.
Other people's choices are their business and responsibility.27 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
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If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.36 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I would augment that by saying that one has to believe that people have a right to exist in the world regardless of their size. That means being able to do things like go to cafes and restaurants, fly places, etc.12 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I would augment that by saying that one has to believe that people have a right to exist in the world regardless of their size. That means being able to do things like go to cafes and restaurants, fly places, etc.
Agreed. To me they go and in hand. If you don't believe someone has a right to sit in a comfortable seat, then you can't claim to value their worth as a person.13 -
NorthCascades wrote: »The diet industry is pretty big, multibillion-dollar. I've never seen ads for products that promise to make you fat, there are thousands of products and services promising to make people skinny. If society really was glamorizing obesity, everybody would want to become obese like the glamourous people.
NO, they lie --Snackwells and "low frat dressing" full of sugar -- all most all breakfast cereals, not just sugar cereals have added sugar
I don't understand how this is relevant to my post?8 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
How are you defining fit? I'm also assuming that you think that a number of Olympic weight lifters aren't fit. Also this paralympic rower in the first picture who won silver in Rio, Lili Wang also wouldn't be fit according to you. I know quite a number of people personally who also fit into this category that you deem as delusional.
I'm not seeing your logic here.4 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Depending on genetics, fat distribution plus amount, and age fat doesn't even equal unhealthy. Nor does lean equal healthy.
Being obese is not an immediate death sentence. It increases risk it does not guarantee anything. It needs to be addressed as soon as possible because the longer a person is obese the harder it is on their bodies. It is not, however, necessarily so urgently needed to the point their weight is riskier than a VLCD. It may be but that is not universal.
There are many drawbacks to being heavy and health is a factor but it does not or should not provide license to treat a person rudely or (further for some people) diminish their dignity in public.8 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Brian Shaw's BMI was 45.4 when his weight was at 412lbs. He isn't representative of that weight range among the general populace, but he and his competitors also clearly show that "fit" is something that can certainly be achieved in the absence of underlying medical issues.
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
I'm a recovering alcoholic, over 32 years without a single drop. In light of your statement, I wonder how long I could go without food before being hospitalized?
The only commonality between addiction to substances and addiction to overeating is that there are underlying issues that need to be addressed.25 -
If people think overweight or obesity is beautiful, that's their taste, and I wouldn't argue with them.
What I really dislike, though, is the idea that I MUST agree that it's beautiful or else I'm a Horrible Hater.
You don't have to personally find any particular person, regardless of their weight, physically attractive. You just have to believe they have worth as a person.
I certainly don't question anyone's worth as a person, and my post didn't suggest that I did. You suggested that.
7 -
I am not here to offend or discuss beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can't make anyone think I am beautiful if they find me ugly just as much as you can't make me think someone is beautiful if I find them ugly.
That really is not the point, in my opinion.
I remember growing up in the 90s and that was the era of the toothpick models. Nearly anorexic girls.
Critics said that magazines and fashion boutiques should not glorify unhealthy behaviors.
Then Claudia Schiffer and Naomi Campbell came along and suddenly, healthy was beautiful again. The Victoria Secret boom happened and Giselle Bundchen became the goddess of the fashion world,
Critics said that those Girls were perpetuating the idea of impossible standards.
Claudia Schiffer has a BMI of 17.85 - underweight is below 18.5 and anorexia requires 17.5 or less for a diagnosis.
Perhaps your optics are a little off?8 -
Underweight people are beautiful too. I get horrible body comments everytime I go out (I'm bmi 15.9 because of gastroparesis not snorexia). People shouldn't comment on other's bodies unless asked.31
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Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
With overeating, we have let that slide because the most obvious symptom of this is a change in personal appearance - so sparing feelings has become a bigger priority than health. White knight this all you want, it isn't hyperbolic to say that people are suffering impaired health and death from overeating because we enable it in a manner that is totally inconsistent with our treatment of those who abuse other substances.
So, you're saying that too many obese people now believe they are healthy the way they are so there is no motivation to lose weight? Really?
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.
But you said:Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »If overeating only resulted in medical issues and with no corresponding effect on physical appearance, society would be very straight forward and blunt about addressing overeating - it would look similar to anti drug, smoking, and alcoholism campaigns. This is ruining your health, get help immediately before you do irreparable harm to yourself. That urgency has definitely saved lives.
If obese people are aware that obesity is not healthy, how can you conclude that society isn't telling them "This is ruining your health"?
There are obese people who actually avoid going to the doctor, because they are tired of hearing about how their weight is killing them but they don't know how to deal with the underlying issues that have caused them to sabotage themselves. There are weight loss clinics all over the country promising to help them lose weight fast. There are diets and workout programs all over the internet promising fast weight loss. People are being prescribed phentermine or diabetes medications to help them lose weight faster, they're being put on Medifast and Optavia plans, bariatric surgery centers are popping up all over the place. There are therapists who specialize in eating disorders and morbid obesity related to histories of abuse or self harm.
You keep repeating your premise and saying "this is true, just believe me". But what you're saying doesn't jive at all with what I see around me. I see a giant industry built around the need to help people lose weight, I see the media pandering momentarily to overweight people and then ignoring them again, and I don't know or see any obese people who don't realize they are hurting themselves by staying that way, in fact I believe many stay that way because at least subconsciously they believe they don't deserve better.
And FYI, obesity /= food addict in at least some if not most cases. There are often deep psychological issues that often have nothing to do with food. You can't just detox from food and then stop eating it.
Replacing our societal infrastructure to accommodate larger people is not society telling them "This is ruining your health", it is telling them that they are okay and that the chairs are the ones that need to change.
Unfortunately for you, your stated goal and your method are at odds.
There is evidence that fat-shaming people just increases their weight.
There is a lot of research that shows shame doesn't work as a successful operant conditioning stimulus period - people are aware that shame is not a natural consequence but one that comes externally from others. When you shame a behavior, you do not teach a person to stop the behavior, you teach them to hide the behavior from you. Now that the person loses access to one positive outlet that means the relative enjoyment of the behavior that needs hiding becomes greater.13 -
I hope people realize that "fat and fit" is a delusion like "functional alcoholic"
Unless you're going to argue for an unusual/non-standard definition of "fitness" that inherently includes low body fat, you're factually incorrect, plus you're treating each of those terms as an absolute, rather than as a broad range. I agree that the ranges of "fat" and "fit" statistically have a small overlap amongst the population, but there is an overlap.
When I was obese, with the body fat to justfy it, and not solely BMI > 30 (though I was that), I:
* was competing as a masters athlete (in my sport, rowing, "masters" means "post collegiate age", not a particular skill level: don't want to oversell - but competing nonetheless), and finishing in the pack, with the occasional place medal
* had an AM resting heart rate around 50bpm (usually +/- 2)
* logged a 2km rowing machine pace (in a real life race, so objectively documented) at about the 75th percentile level (better than 75% of those my age) on the Concept 2 web site, the place where serious rowers record their results (I'd note that I started rowing in my 40s, but the reference group includes women who've done it since youth)
* Had the endurance to go to rowing camps, row around 3-5 hours a day (plus other ancillary stuff (yoga, extensive walking)), then get up in the AM and do it again, for a week at a time.
* was noticeably stronger than most other women my age (40s-50s at the time), though I don't have an objective benchmark for that
* was flexible enough not only to touch my toes, but put my palms flat on the floor.
I think most people would consider that reasonably fit. But my bodyweight was obese. I stayed at that stage for a decade.
I wasn't ideally healthy though, so I decided to lose weight. Now, at a healthy weight (BMI 22-point-something this morning, age 63), my health is greatly improved, but my athletic performance is about the same.
Bottom line: Fit and fat can co-exist. At all levels of fat? Probably not. At all levels of fit? Probably not. But fit and fat are different things.
Funnily, because I'd been so active, I assumed I must have a "slow metabolism" . . . but once I'd been carefully calorie counting for a while, I realized I actually burn more calories than my demographics predict. It's just that it's super easy to eat those extra few hundred calorie, and many more beyond.30
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