Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations
Options
Replies
-
Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese.
Out of curiosity why would you think that it wouldn't decrease obesity rates to marginalize obesity? It certainly decreased the number of people who smoke when society marginalize smoking and made it inconvenient to be a smoker and if you are a smoker quitting isn't an easy fix and often takes years.
Just to be clear by "societal pressure" and "margalization" I don't mean being verbally abusive to overweight people, same as I don't mean that you should be verbally abusive to someone who smokes. That said I think having a bit of a mantra in society of how smoking or obesity are things to avoid and shun is a positive force overall, even if some people feel disadvantaged because of it.
There is also a big difference about having empathy for an individual and having just global societal acceptance of what could be argued is a negative trait. I think society should put pressure against obesity...doesn't mean I can't have empathy or understanding for an individual who is overweight. Not wanting society to accept obesity is not the same thing as promoting fat shaming.
How are you defining "marginalization" in this context? I suspect your definition isn't similar to the way the world marginalization is commonly used in areas like sociology, public health, and the social sciences more broadly. That is to say, the way you're using the word is likely different to the way that people who are doing research in fat studies are using the same word.
That is why I put it into quotes. Problem with these sorts of online debates is people read into what you are saying based on the words they choose for you. I started using marginalization only because other people said what I was talking about was marginalization.
All I mean is that society should actively discourage obesity in the same way we started actively discouraging smoking. Being obese should have some consequences within society. We shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate obesity. Trying to push for larger seats to accommodate people who are morbidly obese or acting like being obese is perfectly fine would be like having smoking sections in restaurants or programs on TV glorifying smoking. Wanting everyone to feel good about themselves is admirable of course but I think it can cause real damage to just act like obesity isn't a health issue. And yes, I do get that there is second-hand smoke but there isn't second-hand fat so the two aren't directly comparible, I still feel like the analogy does convey more the types of "marganilization" I am talking about . A society that has made it clear that that trait is something to be addressed and fixed by the individual rather than accepted.
What I do not mean is that I think its a good idea to mock individuals for their appearance.
Second hand smoke gives people cancer. Acting like other people's obesity is perfectly fine doesn't. A smoking section circulates the air through the restaurant.
The point of the analogy wasnt to equate the health risks of smoking and obesity...I acknowledge that they dont equate in exactly the way you are saying in the very post you are responding to if you keep reading past the part you highlighted to the part I highlighted.
The analogy is to the affect societal accommodation has on the proliferation of negative traits. Smoking was identified as a problem and the first response was to accommodate that by having separate areas for smokers which had no impact on smoking rates. This is at a time where everyone was already aware of the health risk. What really drove smoking rates down was the decision by society to no longer accommodate it.
I wasnt trying to act like you could get sick by being near overweight people come on man no reason to act like I was somehow claiming that. The analogy is more to say putting doublewide seats in all public transit vehicles to accommodate the morbidly obese.
The reason people enacted laws against smoking in public wasn't to nudge people towards dropping the habit, it was to protect people from getting cancer from second hand smoke. You can make an argument that these laws had the effect of reducing smoking - at the same time cigarette taxes were making it a very expensive habit, it was starting to affect insurance premiums, demographics were shifting, and we were understanding even more how unhealthy it is - it's not just that people couldn't smoke in restaurants anymore so they gave smoking up.
Again I'm not trying to equate smoking to obesity in terms of health risks laws or risk to others. I'm responding to those saying that not accommodating something in society doesnt reduce its rates...how do you explain the precipitous drop in smoking rates right after we stopped accommodating smoking on transit and in restraunts etc especially since the health risks were already well known prior to those changes.
Is shame and blocking access to transit and restraunts to obese people acceptable? No...I dont think so for the reasons people have given that it's a trait not a behavior you can just stop. But I resist this idea that societal pressure and lack of acceptance has no effect...of course it has an effect.
Yes, it has an effect. In the case of obesity, all too often the effect of shaming someone about who they are at the moment is (surprise) to make them ashamed of who they are at the moment, and to make them believe they don't deserve anything better than being obese and fat-shamed.
Even if you are correct in your assumption that it was the societal pressure (rather than increasing cigarette taxes, increasing health premiums for smoking, decreasing social benefits from smoking in the form of hanging out with friends or networking with co-workers during smoking breaks*, etc.) that led to a decrease in smoking, there is no reason to assume that negative societal pressure toward a trait that you cannot change in the short term would have the same effect as negative societal pressure that you can change in the short term (including deciding to avoid the negative social pressure at this particular time by not smoking this particular cigarette -- people who are obese can't avoid the negative social pressure at any given time by not eating this particular cookie or this particular hamburger. Kitten, obese people get fat-shamed when they choose to drink a diet coke with their hamburger.)
Negative social pressure on smokers of the sort you seem to be talking about (not accommodating them in public spaces) works for a behavior because the person can immediately avoid the negative social pressure in the moment and repeatedly in future moments from refraining in that instance from engaging in the behavior. There's nothing an obese person can do to immediately avoid the negative social pressure. Human beings are notoriously bad at doing things today to reap benefits tomorrow, much less months or (realistically, for an obese person) years from now.
*i.e., at first there were a few people who actually did quit when the surgeon general came out with his warning in the 60s. My mom did. And there were a few who maybe cut back on the cigarette they had been in the habit of having when they stopped by for a cup of coffee with a former smoker. And then there a few people who never start smoking who otherwise would have had it not been for the health warning. And at first that's a really small number that's hard to pick out of the statistical noise. But over time, the social benefit of lighting up a cigarette after dinner in a restaurant, even before they set up separate smoking areas, becomes marginally less because in the group of six say, one or two are refraining when 10 years earlier all six would have been smoking, because it was just what you did.8 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese.
Out of curiosity why would you think that it wouldn't decrease obesity rates to marginalize obesity? It certainly decreased the number of people who smoke when society marginalize smoking and made it inconvenient to be a smoker and if you are a smoker quitting isn't an easy fix and often takes years.
Just to be clear by "societal pressure" and "margalization" I don't mean being verbally abusive to overweight people, same as I don't mean that you should be verbally abusive to someone who smokes. That said I think having a bit of a mantra in society of how smoking or obesity are things to avoid and shun is a positive force overall, even if some people feel disadvantaged because of it.
There is also a big difference about having empathy for an individual and having just global societal acceptance of what could be argued is a negative trait. I think society should put pressure against obesity...doesn't mean I can't have empathy or understanding for an individual who is overweight. Not wanting society to accept obesity is not the same thing as promoting fat shaming.
How are you defining "marginalization" in this context? I suspect your definition isn't similar to the way the world marginalization is commonly used in areas like sociology, public health, and the social sciences more broadly. That is to say, the way you're using the word is likely different to the way that people who are doing research in fat studies are using the same word.
That is why I put it into quotes. Problem with these sorts of online debates is people read into what you are saying based on the words they choose for you. I started using marginalization only because other people said what I was talking about was marginalization.
All I mean is that society should actively discourage obesity in the same way we started actively discouraging smoking. Being obese should have some consequences within society. We shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate obesity. Trying to push for larger seats to accommodate people who are morbidly obese or acting like being obese is perfectly fine would be like having smoking sections in restaurants or programs on TV glorifying smoking. Wanting everyone to feel good about themselves is admirable of course but I think it can cause real damage to just act like obesity isn't a health issue. And yes, I do get that there is second-hand smoke but there isn't second-hand fat so the two aren't directly comparible, I still feel like the analogy does convey more the types of "marganilization" I am talking about . A society that has made it clear that that trait is something to be addressed and fixed by the individual rather than accepted.
What I do not mean is that I think its a good idea to mock individuals for their appearance.
Second hand smoke gives people cancer. Acting like other people's obesity is perfectly fine doesn't. A smoking section circulates the air through the restaurant.
The point of the analogy wasnt to equate the health risks of smoking and obesity...I acknowledge that they dont equate in exactly the way you are saying in the very post you are responding to if you keep reading past the part you highlighted to the part I highlighted.
The analogy is to the affect societal accommodation has on the proliferation of negative traits. Smoking was identified as a problem and the first response was to accommodate that by having separate areas for smokers which had no impact on smoking rates. This is at a time where everyone was already aware of the health risk. What really drove smoking rates down was the decision by society to no longer accommodate it.
I wasnt trying to act like you could get sick by being near overweight people come on man no reason to act like I was somehow claiming that. The analogy is more to say putting doublewide seats in all public transit vehicles to accommodate the morbidly obese.
The reason people enacted laws against smoking in public wasn't to nudge people towards dropping the habit, it was to protect people from getting cancer from second hand smoke. You can make an argument that these laws had the effect of reducing smoking - at the same time cigarette taxes were making it a very expensive habit, it was starting to affect insurance premiums, demographics were shifting, and we were understanding even more how unhealthy it is - it's not just that people couldn't smoke in restaurants anymore so they gave smoking up.
Again I'm not trying to equate smoking to obesity in terms of health risks laws or risk to others. I'm responding to those saying that not accommodating something in society doesnt reduce its rates...how do you explain the precipitous drop in smoking rates right after we stopped accommodating smoking on transit and in restraunts etc especially since the health risks were already well known prior to those changes.
Is shame and blocking access to transit and restraunts to obese people acceptable? No...I dont think so for the reasons people have given that it's a trait not a behavior you can just stop. But I resist this idea that societal pressure and lack of acceptance has no effect...of course it has an effect.
Yes, it has an effect. In the case of obesity, all too often the effect of shaming someone about who they are at the moment is (surprise) to make them ashamed of who they are at the moment, and to make them believe they don't deserve anything better than being obese and fat-shamed.
Even if you are correct in your assumption that it was the societal pressure (rather than increasing cigarette taxes, increasing health premiums for smoking, decreasing social benefits from smoking in the form of hanging out with friends or networking with co-workers during smoking breaks*, etc.) that led to a decrease in smoking, there is no reason to assume that negative societal pressure toward a trait that you cannot change in the short term would have the same effect as negative societal pressure that you can change in the short term (including deciding to avoid the negative social pressure at this particular time by not smoking this particular cigarette -- people who are obese can't avoid the negative social pressure at any given time by not eating this particular cookie or this particular hamburger. Kitten, obese people get fat-shamed when they choose to drink a diet coke with their hamburger.)
Negative social pressure on smokers of the sort you seem to be talking about (not accommodating them in public spaces) works for a behavior because the person can immediately avoid the negative social pressure in the moment and repeatedly in future moments from refraining in that instance from engaging in the behavior. There's nothing an obese person can do to immediately avoid the negative social pressure. Human beings are notoriously bad at doing things today to reap benefits tomorrow, much less months or (realistically, for an obese person) years from now.
*i.e., at first there were a few people who actually did quit when the surgeon general came out with his warning in the 60s. My mom did. And there were a few who maybe cut back on the cigarette they had been in the habit of having when they stopped by for a cup of coffee with a former smoker. And then there a few people who never start smoking who otherwise would have had it not been for the health warning. And at first that's a really small number that's hard to pick out of the statistical noise. But over time, the social benefit of lighting up a cigarette after dinner in a restaurant, even before they set up separate smoking areas, becomes marginally less because in the group of six say, one or two are refraining when 10 years earlier all six would have been smoking, because it was just what you did.
Well said and that's what I was trying to say. I could argue that never starting in the first place because it isn't cool anymore had a large impact too. Not starting to get fat is much harder and more nuanced because it's affected by way more factors than "it's not cool to smoke anymore", especially when eating is something we humans do by nature and smoking isn't.3 -
I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.0 -
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.1 -
On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.5
-
Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese.
Out of curiosity why would you think that it wouldn't decrease obesity rates to marginalize obesity? It certainly decreased the number of people who smoke when society marginalize smoking and made it inconvenient to be a smoker and if you are a smoker quitting isn't an easy fix and often takes years.
Just to be clear by "societal pressure" and "margalization" I don't mean being verbally abusive to overweight people, same as I don't mean that you should be verbally abusive to someone who smokes. That said I think having a bit of a mantra in society of how smoking or obesity are things to avoid and shun is a positive force overall, even if some people feel disadvantaged because of it.
There is also a big difference about having empathy for an individual and having just global societal acceptance of what could be argued is a negative trait. I think society should put pressure against obesity...doesn't mean I can't have empathy or understanding for an individual who is overweight. Not wanting society to accept obesity is not the same thing as promoting fat shaming.
How are you defining "marginalization" in this context? I suspect your definition isn't similar to the way the world marginalization is commonly used in areas like sociology, public health, and the social sciences more broadly. That is to say, the way you're using the word is likely different to the way that people who are doing research in fat studies are using the same word.
That is why I put it into quotes. Problem with these sorts of online debates is people read into what you are saying based on the words they choose for you. I started using marginalization only because other people said what I was talking about was marginalization.
All I mean is that society should actively discourage obesity in the same way we started actively discouraging smoking. Being obese should have some consequences within society. We shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate obesity. Trying to push for larger seats to accommodate people who are morbidly obese or acting like being obese is perfectly fine would be like having smoking sections in restaurants or programs on TV glorifying smoking. Wanting everyone to feel good about themselves is admirable of course but I think it can cause real damage to just act like obesity isn't a health issue. And yes, I do get that there is second-hand smoke but there isn't second-hand fat so the two aren't directly comparible, I still feel like the analogy does convey more the types of "marganilization" I am talking about . A society that has made it clear that that trait is something to be addressed and fixed by the individual rather than accepted.
What I do not mean is that I think its a good idea to mock individuals for their appearance.
Second hand smoke gives people cancer. Acting like other people's obesity is perfectly fine doesn't. A smoking section circulates the air through the restaurant.
The point of the analogy wasnt to equate the health risks of smoking and obesity...I acknowledge that they dont equate in exactly the way you are saying in the very post you are responding to if you keep reading past the part you highlighted to the part I highlighted.
The analogy is to the affect societal accommodation has on the proliferation of negative traits. Smoking was identified as a problem and the first response was to accommodate that by having separate areas for smokers which had no impact on smoking rates. This is at a time where everyone was already aware of the health risk. What really drove smoking rates down was the decision by society to no longer accommodate it.
I wasnt trying to act like you could get sick by being near overweight people come on man no reason to act like I was somehow claiming that. The analogy is more to say putting doublewide seats in all public transit vehicles to accommodate the morbidly obese.
The reason people enacted laws against smoking in public wasn't to nudge people towards dropping the habit, it was to protect people from getting cancer from second hand smoke. You can make an argument that these laws had the effect of reducing smoking - at the same time cigarette taxes were making it a very expensive habit, it was starting to affect insurance premiums, demographics were shifting, and we were understanding even more how unhealthy it is - it's not just that people couldn't smoke in restaurants anymore so they gave smoking up.
Again I'm not trying to equate smoking to obesity in terms of health risks laws or risk to others. I'm responding to those saying that not accommodating something in society doesnt reduce its rates...how do you explain the precipitous drop in smoking rates right after we stopped accommodating smoking on transit and in restraunts etc especially since the health risks were already well known prior to those changes.
Is shame and blocking access to transit and restraunts to obese people acceptable? No...I dont think so for the reasons people have given that it's a trait not a behavior you can just stop. But I resist this idea that societal pressure and lack of acceptance has no effect...of course it has an effect.
Asking how do you explain is shifting the burden of proof. That said, you're a smart enough person to know a lot more has happened in terms of how smoking is treated than just changes in public accomadation - indeed my understanding is smoking has been declining for much longer than bans in public spaces.
Others have pointed out the disanalgous part - you can stop someone from smoking as a habit by public prohibition, not accomadating an obese person doesn't actually put in a barrier to the behavior itself. Like to be truly comparable in the behavior modification, the changes would need to be things like restaurants not allowed to serve high calorie meals.0 -
Underweight people (anorexic) are marginalized too, but we don't normalize or glamorize them. Eating too much or too little to the point of detrimental health consequences should never become normalized. Insulting/bullying people for their weight should never be accepted, but normalizing obesity shouldn't be accepted either--they are two different things.7
-
goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.6 -
colettehugh wrote: »Underweight people (anorexic) are marginalized too, but we don't normalize or glamorize them. Eating too much or too little to the point of detrimental health consequences should never become normalized. Insulting/bullying people for their weight should never be accepted, but normalizing obesity shouldn't be accepted either--they are two different things.
To be honest, I have never seen obesity normalized except on the internet by people who would get followers (and money) out of it. I was fortunate not to have been bullied or shamed for my weight, and even I know that not being obese is better than being obese. I recognize, and without related emotional baggage, that obesity is a health risk. People around me loving me just the way I am did not fool me into thinking that being obese is glamorous because facts speak for themselves.7 -
goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.
I don’t travel much so I’m no expert, but the couple of times I looked at Business or First Class the cost was much more than double the cost of a seat in economy/coach. The solution mentioned earlier, to buy two seats would be cheaper (but still not entirely comfortable). To me, turning a three seat row into a two seat row and selling the seats at a premium seems like an easy solution. If someone were to make the argument that the airline would be “normalizing obesity” with that change, I would disagree. If they made that change and then offered it with no premium, maybe. But that seems problematic anyway. How would they determine who gets those seats?3 -
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.
Nothing is sure in life so run with your own understanding. Basically since we do not know the underlying cause of why another person is obese we should keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or better yet never have such thoughts about another human.1 -
Why do people feel the need to judge other people in the first place? Do they really think anyone who is at all overweight (not to mention clinically or morbidly obese) who has gone to the doctor for any reason in the last 20 years doesn't know the effects of being overweight and obesity? We live in an age where doctors blame everything up to an including the common cold on being overweight. We know, we get it. it's not as easy for some as others, but rubbing their nose in it like a misbehaving dog doesn't solve anything. Is it really any of their business? Why do people feel the need to have an opinion on another person's life or pass judgement on them ? On first sight of me they would likely think I'm fat, obese, don't care about myself or my health, and god forbid how it affects them. Unless they actually took the time to talk to me they would never know what I am dealing with, what struggles i've had, or what successes. Just negativity because my body size is offensive. They would never know that in the last year I have lost 70 lbs, or that I plateaued for close to 7 months and struggled every day to kick start that weight loss again (finally got it going again recently!). That i still know, despite my success, I still have a ways to goal to reach my goal. Or that in the last 6 months I have been taken off of high blood pressure meds and Metformin. The only prescriptions I have left are for neuropathy and allergies. You would never know the simple joy and elation I felt when I flew to Phoenix earlier this year to take care of my elderly parents and for the first time in years I could sit in an airplane seat reasonably comfortably and without an extender.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a bit of personal attacks. But the simple fact of the matter is this issue not something people should feel any sense of entitlement to an opinion about unless they have been in the other person's place, and even then they should feel empathy, not judgment.9 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Marginalizing the obese doesn't help them become less obese.
Out of curiosity why would you think that it wouldn't decrease obesity rates to marginalize obesity? It certainly decreased the number of people who smoke when society marginalize smoking and made it inconvenient to be a smoker and if you are a smoker quitting isn't an easy fix and often takes years.
Just to be clear by "societal pressure" and "margalization" I don't mean being verbally abusive to overweight people, same as I don't mean that you should be verbally abusive to someone who smokes. That said I think having a bit of a mantra in society of how smoking or obesity are things to avoid and shun is a positive force overall, even if some people feel disadvantaged because of it.
There is also a big difference about having empathy for an individual and having just global societal acceptance of what could be argued is a negative trait. I think society should put pressure against obesity...doesn't mean I can't have empathy or understanding for an individual who is overweight. Not wanting society to accept obesity is not the same thing as promoting fat shaming.
How are you defining "marginalization" in this context? I suspect your definition isn't similar to the way the world marginalization is commonly used in areas like sociology, public health, and the social sciences more broadly. That is to say, the way you're using the word is likely different to the way that people who are doing research in fat studies are using the same word.
That is why I put it into quotes. Problem with these sorts of online debates is people read into what you are saying based on the words they choose for you. I started using marginalization only because other people said what I was talking about was marginalization.
All I mean is that society should actively discourage obesity in the same way we started actively discouraging smoking. Being obese should have some consequences within society. We shouldn't go out of our way to accommodate obesity. Trying to push for larger seats to accommodate people who are morbidly obese or acting like being obese is perfectly fine would be like having smoking sections in restaurants or programs on TV glorifying smoking. Wanting everyone to feel good about themselves is admirable of course but I think it can cause real damage to just act like obesity isn't a health issue. And yes, I do get that there is second-hand smoke but there isn't second-hand fat so the two aren't directly comparible, I still feel like the analogy does convey more the types of "marganilization" I am talking about . A society that has made it clear that that trait is something to be addressed and fixed by the individual rather than accepted.
What I do not mean is that I think its a good idea to mock individuals for their appearance.
Second hand smoke gives people cancer. Acting like other people's obesity is perfectly fine doesn't. A smoking section circulates the air through the restaurant.
The point of the analogy wasnt to equate the health risks of smoking and obesity...I acknowledge that they dont equate in exactly the way you are saying in the very post you are responding to if you keep reading past the part you highlighted to the part I highlighted.
The analogy is to the affect societal accommodation has on the proliferation of negative traits. Smoking was identified as a problem and the first response was to accommodate that by having separate areas for smokers which had no impact on smoking rates. This is at a time where everyone was already aware of the health risk. What really drove smoking rates down was the decision by society to no longer accommodate it.
I wasnt trying to act like you could get sick by being near overweight people come on man no reason to act like I was somehow claiming that. The analogy is more to say putting doublewide seats in all public transit vehicles to accommodate the morbidly obese.
The reason people enacted laws against smoking in public wasn't to nudge people towards dropping the habit, it was to protect people from getting cancer from second hand smoke. You can make an argument that these laws had the effect of reducing smoking - at the same time cigarette taxes were making it a very expensive habit, it was starting to affect insurance premiums, demographics were shifting, and we were understanding even more how unhealthy it is - it's not just that people couldn't smoke in restaurants anymore so they gave smoking up.
Again I'm not trying to equate smoking to obesity in terms of health risks laws or risk to others. I'm responding to those saying that not accommodating something in society doesnt reduce its rates...how do you explain the precipitous drop in smoking rates right after we stopped accommodating smoking on transit and in restraunts etc especially since the health risks were already well known prior to those changes.
Is shame and blocking access to transit and restraunts to obese people acceptable? No...I dont think so for the reasons people have given that it's a trait not a behavior you can just stop. But I resist this idea that societal pressure and lack of acceptance has no effect...of course it has an effect.
I'm not saying this one change had zero effect, but I think it's pretty small in the overall scheme. I disagree about a sharp drop immediately following the restaurant laws though (which were enacted at the state level, different years in different places), we've seen a long decline in smoking rates, due to a lot of factors, you're pointing to one piece in a jigsaw puzzle. I mean eating out takes an hour, maybe a little longer if you make an event of it. Are you saying smokers can't go 90 minutes without a cigarette? Or step outside for a moment while the food is being cooked? Meanwhile cigarette taxes have been increasing steadily and I'm told a pack today cost what a case (carton?) did when I was young. And younger people are far less likely to smoke because they understood the health implications before becoming addicted.
It sounds like if you really wanted to influence this, you should favor a steadily increasing tax on food. Maybe on hyper-palatable calorie-dense food.3 -
goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »On the topic of extra wide seats, I think that they should be made available on airplanes, but at a premium cost, in the same way that tall people pay for an upgrade for seats with more leg room. And with respect to hospital beds (mentioned up thread), hospitals should be changing to serve their demographics. Not really debatable in my mind.
That exists now, it's called Business or First Class.
I don’t travel much so I’m no expert, but the couple of times I looked at Business or First Class the cost was much more than double the cost of a seat in economy/coach. The solution mentioned earlier, to buy two seats would be cheaper (but still not entirely comfortable). To me, turning a three seat row into a two seat row and selling the seats at a premium seems like an easy solution. If someone were to make the argument that the airline would be “normalizing obesity” with that change, I would disagree. If they made that change and then offered it with no premium, maybe. But that seems problematic anyway. How would they determine who gets those seats?
How much more the seats are depends on how much of a discount you got the economy seats for. I get stuck paying close to full fare a lot (since I travel for business and may buy without much lead time or go at times when they tend to assume its business travelers and not offer much of a discount) and then it's often not that expensive to upgrade. I sometimes do (paying out of my own pocket for the upgrade) if the flight is long enough to make it worthwhile and the cost low enough. In those cases it is nothing like the cost of buying two seats. It also costs extra to get almost any decent seats these days unless you take your chances and a good seat ends up being among the last ones left. They charge more not just for the extra leg room, but any desirable location, varying in cost based on what they think people will pay. First class also avoids the fee for checking if you need to check a bag or two.3 -
[/quote]
Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really.[/quote]
Enabling food addicts? You mean like when someone says "Food addiction is a disease- you can't help shoveling food in your mouth. " Or when a doctor says "Hey here's a pill that will help you lose weight." Oh, wait- that's what we say to drug addicts and alcoholics.
Food addicts are told "You're doing this to yourself- just lose weight. " (As if DA and alcoholics aren't doing this to themselves. ) That's probably why many people stay obese. I have never had a doctor (even when asked) to refer me to a nutritionist. I have never had a doctor offer me diet pills (yet a friend of mine who was only 40 lbs into overweight BMI was prescribed Adipex by the same dr). I have yet to have a dr refer me to a sleep clinic or prescribe me a CPAP for my sleep apnea (which I've had my entire life and could die in my sleep) I was just told to lose the weight. So maybe you're right, by not helping us help ourselves, I guess they are enabling us. And no hate from anyone, please, because I do have other issues going on that are contributing factors to my food addiction that I have spent at least 28 of my 40 years on this earth working on.
Don't think that I am trying to justify food addiction, it's just the hypocrisy that makes me so mad.
Any type of addiction is a symptom of something deeper (that's why some addicts are in and out of rehabs that only address quitting their drug of choice).
4 -
Ok so I haven't read all of this thread b/c it's a lot but I just find it so interesting (and sad) that folks on here are being so shameful to other folks of bigger body types and saying they need to pay a premium for just existing.
Some people will never be "healthy" even if they look it to your eyes because of chronic illness, cancer, etc. A cancer patient who has gained weight on chemo shouldn't have to pay for a more expensive airplane seat so they can sit comfortably while they're already going through hell. You're just kicking those people in the face, think about that. Cruel.
We put what we see as "healthy" in such a small box that it's impossible for so many people to attain or maintain. I might not look your narrow definition of "healthy" but I came from nearly dying of an eating disorder (and looking damn "healthy" at the time) and this is what health looks like to me. I'm not sure if y'all are here for weight loss or something else, but I just find this kind of shaming hypocritical and sad. We're all here on our own journeys. Let's support people no matter their reasons or end goals because it looks different for everyone.5 -
I'm of the, "don't assume" type (or I try to be!) and I'm glad I asked. I definitely didn't read what you wrote in the way you meant it but, after your clarification, we're in agreement.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.
Nothing is sure in life so run with your own understanding. Basically since we do not know the underlying cause of why another person is obese we should keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or better yet never have such thoughts about another human.1 -
I'm of the, "don't assume" type (or I try to be!) and I'm glad I asked. I definitely didn't read what you wrote in the way you meant it but, after your clarification, we're in agreement.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Can you clarify what you mean in terms of what I bolded? I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that that's the case.GaleHawkins wrote: »I occasionally fall down the internet rabbit hole on this stuff. There are so many concerns that our current society is glamorourizing and normalizing obesity. But there are also Fat Studies departments highlighting fat people as a marginalized community. I understand there are studies that show negative feedback and taunts or self loathing decrease the chances people succeed in change. Self love and respect usually helps. (No source, so if you have alternative perspectives I’m interested.)
What are your thoughts on this debate?
I find myself very torn because I agree with some of both. I don’t think people who are classified obese should be hidden from the medical realities. Obese isn’t a dirty word. It’s accurate. (Am still in that category myself). But I also think subways and airplanes should have accessibile seating and not shame obese passengers.
Glamorizing any body size be it obesity or the Barbie doll look is negative as I see it. I am no longer obese because I decided to improve my health and health markers with no focus on scale numbers. Fixing the health failures in my life due to my former way of eating fixed my obesity. Healthy people do not typically become obese but first are dealing with one or more health failures before obesity becomes another health concern.
Without self respect and love we can not truly respect and love others.
Nothing is sure in life so run with your own understanding. Basically since we do not know the underlying cause of why another person is obese we should keep our negative thoughts to ourselves or better yet never have such thoughts about another human.
I agree with the above too (what you quoted), but it seems non-responsive to your prior question. Pretty sure the prior comment meant that no one gets overweight without some underlying medical issue, that gaining weight is necessarily a symptom of being sick, so anyone who becomes overweight is necessarily sick. The poster has said that over and over, as if calories were irrelevant.4 -
BuiltLikeAPeep wrote: »"Nope, I didn't say that at all. Alcoholics, drug addicts, smokers, etc., all have a similar level of self-awareness. We just don't enable them in the same way as we do food addicts. Really."
Enabling food addicts? You mean like when someone says "Food addiction is a disease- you can't help shoveling food in your mouth. " Or when a doctor says "Hey here's a pill that will help you lose weight." Oh, wait- that's what we say to drug addicts and alcoholics.
I agree with you that food addicts (or people who overeat without having an "addiction" which I think is far more common) are not "enabled" any more than anyone else. But you seem to be going too far the other way and claiming that addicts and alcoholics are excused and not told that's not acceptable, which is a pretty off take IMO.
With respect to your "quotes," that's not really what is said to drug addicts and alcoholics. (I don't think it's a proper comparison, really, but most who are dealing with drug addicts and alcoholics don't think it's just okay, that the person can't help it and has no responsibility. They might understand that stopping is difficult, as most understand that weight loss is difficult, and usually they have some anger, if they are family members or close to them, vs. a medical professional. And if by pill you are referring to something like methadone or other options to help with withdrawal, that's really nothing like a weight loss drug, none of which are really good.)
(I think it's far more likely people will say "your behavior is not okay, you have a problem" to someone with a problem with alcohol or other drugs than a fat person. However, I also think that's appropriate, as the former group are affecting others more and more likely to harm others/shirk responsibilities than the latter group, so most of us are likely to think it's none of our business if someone is overweight, and that they of course are aware. It's pretty hard to be fat and not know it or feel uncomfortable about it often enough, IME.)
But again, the idea that we think more positively of someone who is actively addicted to drugs or alcohol (vs. someone hiding it and not yet known) than someone overweight is a strange notion to me.Food addicts are told "You're doing this to yourself- just lose weight."
Yes, doctors tell overweight or obese people that it's a health risk or, in some cases, contributing to health conditions, and that they should lose weight. That's appropriate, I think treating it as a medical issue is important.(As if DA and alcoholics aren't doing this to themselves. )
Pretty sure doctors will tell them about the health issues too -- doctors ask people how much they drink, etc. (and know lots of people lie).That's probably why many people stay obese. I have never had a doctor (even when asked) to refer me to a nutritionist. I have never had a doctor offer me diet pills (yet a friend of mine who was only 40 lbs into overweight BMI was prescribed Adipex by the same dr).
So this seems weird, as the doctor seems to have given the friend the help you think you need, so hardly some "doctors won't help." Did you ask why the pills were not prescribed to you or why you could not get a referral to a dietitian? Did you consider changing doctors?
I say this as someone who found it more helpful to learn about nutrition and weight loss myself vs. going to a dietitian, and who thinks diet pills are dangerous or bunk or a temporary crutch and would not ever take them. However, I do think a dietitian can be helpful for some, and that counseling can be helpful, and both should be offered (and often are).I have yet to have a dr refer me to a sleep clinic or prescribe me a CPAP for my sleep apnea (which I've had my entire life and could die in my sleep) I was just told to lose the weight.
If you are diagnosed with sleep apnea (which I'm not sure is possible without a sleep study), then this seems odd, as CPAPs are normally prescribed, I'd change doctors.
4 -
Using the example of marginalizing smokers leading to reduced smoking rates, I think we'd need to focus on what was really going on. It's not a person that was shunned, it was a behavior. Smokers weren't banned from establishments, they just weren't allowed to smoke there. While I think there are aspects of society that shamed smokers as too weak or lazy to manage to quit, I don't think that has ever been a common pov. In fact, most people I know acknowledge how hard it is too quit and feel sorry for folks who can't manage to quit the habit.
Obese people are already shamed far more than that, and there's no way to shun the behavior without shunning the person. You can't say you can come to my party, but if you want to be obese tonight you'll have to do it on the porch. There's just no way to make the two analagous.
Regardless, I know lots of ex smokers, and none of them credit being shamed for pushing them to quit. The expense is what I hear most often, followed by being scared every time they developed a cough that they had given themselves cancer, and getting pregnant/having kids in the house and not wanting to risk hurting them.
I don't mean to be dismissive, but it seems like common sense to me that shaming someone for something that comforts them is counter productive. I can think of several habits that people can acquire (especially when they're young) to self sooth that society tries to shame out of them with little success or even ill effect.11
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.3K Introduce Yourself
- 43.4K Getting Started
- 259.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 387 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 911 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions