Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related
Replies
-
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
You should go back and re-read the last cited paper at the end of the blog - you know, the one that basically says that the only results that have been duplicated in humans can all be attributed to weight loss and not specifically to IF...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118302535
Hold on now - did you read that link?
"We demonstrate for the first time in humans that eTRF improves some aspects of cardiometabolic health and that IF’s effects are not solely due to weight loss."
You totally read that wrong - since your statement is *kitten*-backwards of what they say.
Really... (from the last link):
'However, it was unknown whether these benefits are solely due to weight loss. Many have speculated that IF improves cardiometabolic health more than conventional dieting, even when matched for weight loss. Indeed, data in rodents suggest that IF improves cardiometabolic endpoints even when food intake and/or body weight is matched to the control group (Anson et al., 2003, Belkacemi et al., 2012, Hatori et al., 2012, Olsen et al., 2017, Sherman et al., 2012, Woodie et al., 2017, Wu et al., 2011, Zarrinpar et al., 2014). However, preliminary evidence in humans suggests that the benefits of IF are due mostly or only to weight loss (Halberg et al., 2005, Harvie et al., 2011, Soeters et al., 2009, Trepanowski et al., 2017b). Initially, a single-arm, 2-week trial reported that IF improves insulin sensitivity even when participants are approximately weight stable (Halberg et al., 2005), but the study was uncontrolled. Later, two better controlled, randomized crossover trials reported that IF did not improve glucose or lipid metabolism (Carlson et al., 2007, Soeters et al., 2009, Stote et al., 2007). More recently, the longest IF study in humans reported that adults who practiced ADMF for 1 year were not any healthier than conventional dieters who lost a similar amount of weight, yet they had a higher attrition rate (Trepanowski et al., 2017b).'
Ok - so they are commenting on other studies.
Did you actually read the study YOU linked?
"During the intervention phases, participants were required to eat only food provided by study staff, were fed enough food to maintain their weight, and ate all meals while being monitored by study staff. Furthermore, food intake was matched on a meal-by-meal basis across the two arms to eliminate any confounding effects from differences in food intake or meal frequency. "
As the article starts out with - they did NOT lose weight.
It is still only relevant to people with insulin resistance. Since IR can cause hypertension it is no surprise that blood pressure might also improve regardless of weight loss.
Very true, and it'll be interesting what other side benefits that aren't so quick to show up might be possible for longer run studies, and perhaps with more participants.
I've never once in all my annual blood tests ever been given test for IR, fasted blood sugar looked good - end of story.
I wonder how many people like me have a level of IR that requires a strong request for A1C but never find out since neither Dr or patient think to ask for it (I did almost have to demand it). Patient could easily chalk symptoms up to other things going on. Dr could treat individual symptoms like that blood pressure.
So how many in society benefit from dietary restrictions like this or potential keto benefits, more than just the weight loss would provide, or faster than what the weight loss would provide on it's own. But are unknown to be IR and that's why they saw such improvements in health factors.
I think you might be ahead of yourself. We do not know how long the improvement in insulin resistance lasts. Have any of the subjects studied completely reversed their Pre-D diagnosis and maintained it for a year? Will increased fasting continue to work for a prolonged period of time or will the improvement eventually diminish if the underlying issues are not resolved? If weight is the major contributor shouldn't that still be the primary focus? Also, adherence to a new eating schedule may not be any better (or could be worse) than adherence to a weight loss program for the masses that have IR.
I think if you have to get to the point of nearly demanding a test you are probably in need of a new doctor. Mine tests me for everything without any prodding and at 4 month intervals right now. I know more about my blood than I ever cared to know. I have very mild hypertension but my FBG is 65 and my A1C is 3.9.7 -
raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
Right, no magic to IF. Or Keto. They may FEEL like magic to some people if they help them stay in a calorie deficit more easily, but they are not.
16 -
never mind.2
-
raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
3 -
I think the best weight loss plan is the one that you can stick to. For me, that is intermittent fasting. I know there is no 'magic' to it, but it does feel magical to me. I don't obsess about food or calories or tracking anymore. I've lost over 30 lbs so far (which I haven't been able to do on any other plan over the last several years), and I actually enjoy it. I even look forward to my fasting time as much as my meals now. I eat breakfast and lunch, and stop eating completely after 3:00. Respectfully...if it's working for someone, and they are healthy, why argue?20
-
@heybales, have you ever considered ordering your own blood work and paying for it? That’s what I do. I’m self-employed and have a high-deductible health insurance plan and find it cheaper and easier to go this route. Besides, I never clear my deductible.
I order various tests of interest to me every birthday. Last time included A1C for the first time because I was curious having read about it.
This approach isn’t for everyone but it’s my approach. Been doing this for years. Not going to let some doc tell me what lab work I can and can’t have. I’m the boss with my health and willing to pay for it. It’s not that expensive.9 -
Tedebearduff wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
Mouse study.5 -
Personally, I don't get the whole IF concept. I eat my meals within an 8 hour window, but that's just my life. I eat when I'm hungry. I didn't pick that time frame as part of some master plan.
If calling their way of eating IF keeps someone on track and leads them to a healthier lifestyle, I'm all for it. 👍
Many of us however never were able to confine ourselves to a set schedule for eating. Me personally after I ate breakfast I was constantly looking for something else to eat. I also snacked a lot. So having a shorter eating window has helped me get not only my appetite under control but also get a handle on the snacking.
I tried other ways to get my eating under control...some of those ways worked for a while...then they didn't.
I don't really care if other people get it or not...they don't have to. As long as it continues to work for me then I will continue having a TRE/IF/whatever anyone chooses to call it.
Master plan??? IDK...I don't even have a master plan for me life...other than to live happy for as long as I can.12 -
I do IF and am not keto, I do it because im not really a breakfast eater and once i start eating, I dont stop. I am seriously hungry all day once i start eating, so noon to 8, I can get more calories into that time and feel more satisfied.11
-
Tedebearduff wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
Mouse study.
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.8 -
@Annie_01
My 8 hour eating window is only since starting mfp. Prior to that, I was an emotional eater and would sneak food after my husband went to bed. I was certainly not disciplined up until I made this my new lifestyle.
Whatever works to get a person healthier is what they should do.8 -
For weight loss IF is just another way to manage calories. There is growing research though around additional health benefits of this way of eating not related specifically to weight.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/intermittent-fasting-surprising-update-2018062914156
Did you read this paragraph in the blog you linked to:
'There’s a ton of incredibly promising intermittent fasting (IF) research done on fat rats. They lose weight, their blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugars improve… but they’re rats. Studies in humans, almost across the board, have shown that IF is safe and incredibly effective, but really no more effective than any other diet. In addition, many people find it difficult to fast.'
When they start reproducing the results in humans, I will start paying attention to the 'magic' of IF.
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
I'm actually more excited about not-so-new things that are supported by multiple studies carried out by multiple researchers looking at a question from a variety of angles. There's a tendency for people to get all excited about some new study that shows something new, that might just be an outlier in the entire corpus of studies looking at an issue.6 -
Tedebearduff wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
Mouse study.
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.
I am with you. I hope IF is proven to have all kinds of benefits. I have never said that none exist. But I have heard of miracle cures and fat burning secrets my entire life and none of them have ever stood against the test of science.
My personal theory has always been that some of the benefits may exist in humans but they they are so tiny they are hard to measure. If a person like me that has skipped breakfast for 20+ years had been measured back in the beginning and now perhaps something will have shown up.
While I would never try to connect this when I do read about this improvement in insulin resistance I sometimes find myself wondering if my 20+ years of "improving" might have contributed to my reactive hypoglycemia. My body produces too much insulin. On the other hand that would be a great clickbait blog: Can long term IF cause your blood sugar to drop to fatal levels? Find out here!3 -
haha i think this debate was more entertaining here than the one with my friend.9
-
raven56706 wrote: »haha i think this debate was more entertaining here than the one with my friend.
MFP brings the lulz!3 -
Tedebearduff wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
Mouse study.
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.
I am with you. I hope IF is proven to have all kinds of benefits. I have never said that none exist. But I have heard of miracle cures and fat burning secrets my entire life and none of them have ever stood against the test of science.
My personal theory has always been that some of the benefits may exist in humans but they they are so tiny they are hard to measure. If a person like me that has skipped breakfast for 20+ years had been measured back in the beginning and now perhaps something will have shown up.
While I would never try to connect this when I do read about this improvement in insulin resistance I sometimes find myself wondering if my 20+ years of "improving" might have contributed to my reactive hypoglycemia. My body produces too much insulin. On the other hand that would be a great clickbait blog: Can long term IF cause your blood sugar to drop to fatal levels? Find out here!
This reminds me of my own longtime personal theory that the outsized benefits attributed to relatively small weight losses in the significantly overweight or obese (say, 5% to 10% of BW) confound the benefits of weight loss with the benefits of being in a calorie deficit -- that is, that there could be effects on some of the common health markers such as blood glucose, BP, lipid profiles caused by being in a calorie deficit over a period of weeks (presumably it would be an effect of the physical processes needed to recover stored energy), totally separate from the benefits of being a slightly healthier weight. I'm wondering if simply being in a calorie deficit for longer periods each day, which could cause more recovery of stored energy during that period (even if counterbalanced by energy storage in the eating window), could have similar effects.4 -
For tens of thousands of years or forbears were hunter gatherers. They didn't do so when they realized that they were hungry, or at a certain time (no watches, only the sun, moon and stars to guide them) or only after a certain amount of hours - how would they have known? And they hunted and gathered all the time. I prefer to eat something at home before I start my "hunting gathering" at the shopping centre / supermarket, i.e. do my food and beverage shopping. And I never enjoyed a big breakfast - an early lunch seems to suit me just fine which means that between dinner time (about 7 p.m.) and the next meal are about 16 to 18 hours. Call that intermittent fasting? Fine by me - I just wonder who told my stomach to behave like that...1
-
lynn_glenmont wrote: »Tedebearduff wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »On my friends side, he says Intermittent Fasting has tons of benefits and doesnt't have to be done with Keto.
I have said " if it doesnt have anything to do with Keto, why fast? just stick to the calories and thats it."
i mean correct me if i am wrong (i checked google and forget it. tons of "experts" ) but IF is just a way to restrict your calories thats it. say you eat 1800 calories a day for weight loss. if you eat 200 calories at lets say 8am, then you have the ENTIRE day to eat 1600. You don't have to wait but just be mindful of your eating.
What i am trying to say is there is no magic to it correct?
There's lots out there I'm no expert on IF but there are lots of benefits to it just google some more.
here is something on it for ya
http://news.mit.edu/2018/fasting-boosts-stem-cells-regenerative-capacity-0503
Mouse study.
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.
I am with you. I hope IF is proven to have all kinds of benefits. I have never said that none exist. But I have heard of miracle cures and fat burning secrets my entire life and none of them have ever stood against the test of science.
My personal theory has always been that some of the benefits may exist in humans but they they are so tiny they are hard to measure. If a person like me that has skipped breakfast for 20+ years had been measured back in the beginning and now perhaps something will have shown up.
While I would never try to connect this when I do read about this improvement in insulin resistance I sometimes find myself wondering if my 20+ years of "improving" might have contributed to my reactive hypoglycemia. My body produces too much insulin. On the other hand that would be a great clickbait blog: Can long term IF cause your blood sugar to drop to fatal levels? Find out here!
This reminds me of my own longtime personal theory that the outsized benefits attributed to relatively small weight losses in the significantly overweight or obese (say, 5% to 10% of BW) confound the benefits of weight loss with the benefits of being in a calorie deficit -- that is, that there could be effects on some of the common health markers such as blood glucose, BP, lipid profiles caused by being in a calorie deficit over a period of weeks (presumably it would be an effect of the physical processes needed to recover stored energy), totally separate from the benefits of being a slightly healthier weight. I'm wondering if simply being in a calorie deficit for longer periods each day, which could cause more recovery of stored energy during that period (even if counterbalanced by energy storage in the eating window), could have similar effects.
I don't know. I do know that my lipids have gone the wrong way which seems to also be a thing with people who have a lot of fat to lose and are not weight stable.
I am not sure if my BP will actually improve until I have my surgery and can incorporate more exercise. It hasn't changed in nearly 150 pounds but it is only mildly high. Before medication 125-135/69-78 was my normal range. I apparently never needed any help with my RHR which has remained around 55 for the last 100 pounds or so I have bothered to add it to my SS.
I do find the various changes in physiology to be very interesting while in a deficit. I had no idea it could change hormone levels so much.3 -
Comparing any form of IF with the constant grazing some manage to do. My understanding from a BANT registered Nutritionist is, when the body is constantly being fed the normal cycle of digestion through to elimination is in a constant state of being reset. The essential organs take something like 5 or 6 hours to go through, to complete their processes, introducing more foods within that time returns the whole process to its starting point. This can impact on liver function, particularly as we age, causing it to be less able to eliminate the "essential by products of life", as readily as it otherwise should.
I would suggest it is not unusual for many people to start their day at say 7-30 with breakfast, having lunch at say 12 -30 and probably an evening meal at 6 or 7 ish. It is possible for these people to achieve a "fast" overnight approaching 12 hours, this is probably adequate to assist the body it its task to dare I say, "cleanse" itself.5
Categories
- 1.5M All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 387.1K Introduce Yourself
- 42.7K Getting Started
- 258.4K Health and Weight Loss
- 174.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.1K Recipes
- 231.8K Fitness and Exercise
- 316 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.4K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.1K Motivation and Support
- 7.4K Challenges
- 1.2K Debate Club
- 96.1K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 2.1K MyFitnessPal Information
- 20 News and Announcements
- 564 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 1.5K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions