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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related
Replies
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Mouse study.
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.8 -
@Annie_01
My 8 hour eating window is only since starting mfp. Prior to that, I was an emotional eater and would sneak food after my husband went to bed. I was certainly not disciplined up until I made this my new lifestyle.
Whatever works to get a person healthier is what they should do.8 -
I read the entire thing. There is more research being done in humans now as also stated in the article. Did you read it? In addition to the benefits regarding insulin there have also been noted improvements in blood pressure - even for those with no weight change. While more research is needed this is promising.
The studies are still being conducted and we will learn more. I believe we should all be excited to learn new things as they are discovered. Don’t you?
I personally gave up IF because it does not work for me with my training schedule and I personally experienced no health benefits outside of easily maintaining my deficit. I won’t disregard the research happening and potential benefits being explored because of my own experience though.
I'm actually more excited about not-so-new things that are supported by multiple studies carried out by multiple researchers looking at a question from a variety of angles. There's a tendency for people to get all excited about some new study that shows something new, that might just be an outlier in the entire corpus of studies looking at an issue.6 -
Yeah, it's amazing how frequently people jump on some clickbait about IF. The majority of them are mouse studies which may or may not translate to humans. A small % of mouse studies typically do.
There have been mostly short term, low participant and often uncontrolled studies on IF with human participants. More in depth, high quality human studies would certainly be beneficial. As of now, none of these auxiliary benefits are proven. As a person who practices IF, I hope there are more benefits. But I'm not going to claim them and act on them until there is proof. We should all recall how fat was the boogie man in the 70s and 80s based on insufficient evidence...
If someone else want to be an early adapter and bet on the come, that is up to them but don't claim it as fact please and using mouse studies only undermines your credibility.
I am with you. I hope IF is proven to have all kinds of benefits. I have never said that none exist. But I have heard of miracle cures and fat burning secrets my entire life and none of them have ever stood against the test of science.
My personal theory has always been that some of the benefits may exist in humans but they they are so tiny they are hard to measure. If a person like me that has skipped breakfast for 20+ years had been measured back in the beginning and now perhaps something will have shown up.
While I would never try to connect this when I do read about this improvement in insulin resistance I sometimes find myself wondering if my 20+ years of "improving" might have contributed to my reactive hypoglycemia. My body produces too much insulin. On the other hand that would be a great clickbait blog: Can long term IF cause your blood sugar to drop to fatal levels? Find out here!3 -
haha i think this debate was more entertaining here than the one with my friend.9
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raven56706 wrote: »haha i think this debate was more entertaining here than the one with my friend.
MFP brings the lulz!3 -
I am with you. I hope IF is proven to have all kinds of benefits. I have never said that none exist. But I have heard of miracle cures and fat burning secrets my entire life and none of them have ever stood against the test of science.
My personal theory has always been that some of the benefits may exist in humans but they they are so tiny they are hard to measure. If a person like me that has skipped breakfast for 20+ years had been measured back in the beginning and now perhaps something will have shown up.
While I would never try to connect this when I do read about this improvement in insulin resistance I sometimes find myself wondering if my 20+ years of "improving" might have contributed to my reactive hypoglycemia. My body produces too much insulin. On the other hand that would be a great clickbait blog: Can long term IF cause your blood sugar to drop to fatal levels? Find out here!
This reminds me of my own longtime personal theory that the outsized benefits attributed to relatively small weight losses in the significantly overweight or obese (say, 5% to 10% of BW) confound the benefits of weight loss with the benefits of being in a calorie deficit -- that is, that there could be effects on some of the common health markers such as blood glucose, BP, lipid profiles caused by being in a calorie deficit over a period of weeks (presumably it would be an effect of the physical processes needed to recover stored energy), totally separate from the benefits of being a slightly healthier weight. I'm wondering if simply being in a calorie deficit for longer periods each day, which could cause more recovery of stored energy during that period (even if counterbalanced by energy storage in the eating window), could have similar effects.4 -
For tens of thousands of years or forbears were hunter gatherers. They didn't do so when they realized that they were hungry, or at a certain time (no watches, only the sun, moon and stars to guide them) or only after a certain amount of hours - how would they have known? And they hunted and gathered all the time. I prefer to eat something at home before I start my "hunting gathering" at the shopping centre / supermarket, i.e. do my food and beverage shopping. And I never enjoyed a big breakfast - an early lunch seems to suit me just fine which means that between dinner time (about 7 p.m.) and the next meal are about 16 to 18 hours. Call that intermittent fasting? Fine by me - I just wonder who told my stomach to behave like that...1
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »
This reminds me of my own longtime personal theory that the outsized benefits attributed to relatively small weight losses in the significantly overweight or obese (say, 5% to 10% of BW) confound the benefits of weight loss with the benefits of being in a calorie deficit -- that is, that there could be effects on some of the common health markers such as blood glucose, BP, lipid profiles caused by being in a calorie deficit over a period of weeks (presumably it would be an effect of the physical processes needed to recover stored energy), totally separate from the benefits of being a slightly healthier weight. I'm wondering if simply being in a calorie deficit for longer periods each day, which could cause more recovery of stored energy during that period (even if counterbalanced by energy storage in the eating window), could have similar effects.
I don't know. I do know that my lipids have gone the wrong way which seems to also be a thing with people who have a lot of fat to lose and are not weight stable.
I am not sure if my BP will actually improve until I have my surgery and can incorporate more exercise. It hasn't changed in nearly 150 pounds but it is only mildly high. Before medication 125-135/69-78 was my normal range. I apparently never needed any help with my RHR which has remained around 55 for the last 100 pounds or so I have bothered to add it to my SS.
I do find the various changes in physiology to be very interesting while in a deficit. I had no idea it could change hormone levels so much.3 -
Comparing any form of IF with the constant grazing some manage to do. My understanding from a BANT registered Nutritionist is, when the body is constantly being fed the normal cycle of digestion through to elimination is in a constant state of being reset. The essential organs take something like 5 or 6 hours to go through, to complete their processes, introducing more foods within that time returns the whole process to its starting point. This can impact on liver function, particularly as we age, causing it to be less able to eliminate the "essential by products of life", as readily as it otherwise should.
I would suggest it is not unusual for many people to start their day at say 7-30 with breakfast, having lunch at say 12 -30 and probably an evening meal at 6 or 7 ish. It is possible for these people to achieve a "fast" overnight approaching 12 hours, this is probably adequate to assist the body it its task to dare I say, "cleanse" itself.5 -
pierinifitness wrote: »@heybales, have you ever considered ordering your own blood work and paying for it? That’s what I do. I’m self-employed and have a high-deductible health insurance plan and find it cheaper and easier to go this route. Besides, I never clear my deductible.
I order various tests of interest to me every birthday. Last time included A1C for the first time because I was curious having read about it.
This approach isn’t for everyone but it’s my approach. Been doing this for years. Not going to let some doc tell me what lab work I can and can’t have. I’m the boss with my health and willing to pay for it. It’s not that expensive.
I will prior to next annual visit.
Not only to get what I want on it - but also to go in with the results if there needs to be discussion. Rather than go in, get reference to downstairs lab to get it, then another appointment to come in to discuss it.
And I'm sure the pre-insurance price on the EOB for the test isn't true for outside firm direct non-insurance payment.0 -
@heybales, I use Direct Labs. Type www. then their name with no space and then .com and you’ll be on their home page. They have monthly specials so when I see what I’m interested in, I’ll stock up. I use my HSA card to pay.
They send you a requisition form that you take to your local lab. I use Quest. You go in just like any other lab visit and then in about 48 hours, you get an email that your results are in. You then log in to your account and download the results. Absolutely seamless.
If you decide to use, I’m sure you’ll be pleased. Wishing you the best.7 -
Intermittent fasting can be effective for those manging caloric intake. From the objective evidence most are susceptible to snacking during "downtime" when they are not as engaged, so implementing a deliberate fast during these times can be very effective.
Outside of that there aren't many benefits that are demonstrable.2 -
Comparing any form of IF with the constant grazing some manage to do. My understanding from a BANT registered Nutritionist is, when the body is constantly being fed the normal cycle of digestion through to elimination is in a constant state of being reset. The essential organs take something like 5 or 6 hours to go through, to complete their processes, introducing more foods within that time returns the whole process to its starting point. This can impact on liver function, particularly as we age, causing it to be less able to eliminate the "essential by products of life", as readily as it otherwise should.
I would suggest it is not unusual for many people to start their day at say 7-30 with breakfast, having lunch at say 12 -30 and probably an evening meal at 6 or 7 ish. It is possible for these people to achieve a "fast" overnight approaching 12 hours, this is probably adequate to assist the body it its task to dare I say, "cleanse" itself.
If this were true, no one could have a bowel movement until they had gone 5 or 6 hours without eating, which I am certain is not the case.
Your stomach and different sections of your intestines can clearly operate simultaneously and independently.14 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
I'm actually more excited about not-so-new things that are supported by multiple studies carried out by multiple researchers looking at a question from a variety of angles. There's a tendency for people to get all excited about some new study that shows something new, that might just be an outlier in the entire corpus of studies looking at an issue.
All of those not so new things you are excited about were new once with minimal promising research which prompted more research.
In the end we should all do what works for us but dismissing promising new research for the sole purpose that more still needs to be done is silly. No one will argue more research should still be conducted but that doesn’t discount the potential found in the research that has already been completed either.2 -
true but people have sworn by it. IF has helped many including Hugh Jackman and other celebs shed the weight for promotion.
I just think that they were never able to get into a calorie intake for a deficit. For me, IF is just a tool to keep you from eating and maintain you in a deficit. No magic.2 -
All of those not so new things you are excited about were new once with minimal promising research which prompted more research.
In the end we should all do what works for us but dismissing promising new research for the sole purpose that more still needs to be done is silly. No one will argue more research should still be conducted but that doesn’t discount the potential found in the research that has already been completed either.
I don't dismiss them, but I don't come on sites like this and claim them as fact, either. Nor would I use myself as an unofficial lab rat in the hopes it does some good without killing me.
"Promising new research" is a dime a dozen. Because, if they didn't think there was promise, initial trials wouldn't have been done in the first place. But there's a big gap between promise and fact, and I'm willing to wait it out.
The only exception to this would be if I was dying of something for which no cure exists and some promising new research on a potential cure was available. I'd try it in a heartbeat because, well, otherwise I'm dead anyway.
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All of those not so new things you are excited about were new once with minimal promising research which prompted more research.
In the end we should all do what works for us but dismissing promising new research for the sole purpose that more still needs to be done is silly. No one will argue more research should still be conducted but that doesn’t discount the potential found in the research that has already been completed either.
The difference is getting excited when there is actually something to be excited about not prematurely as some are given to do. There is no reason to discount it but also no reason to force yourself to do it if it makes you miserable. Weight loss is more of a guarantee to make a person healthier and if a restricted eating pattern gets in the way of it then it is BAD no matter how promising it may be in other ways.5 -
All of those not so new things you are excited about were new once with minimal promising research which prompted more research.
In the end we should all do what works for us but dismissing promising new research for the sole purpose that more still needs to be done is silly. No one will argue more research should still be conducted but that doesn’t discount the potential found in the research that has already been completed either.
And so were a lot of other things that turned out to be either ineffective or actively harmful.
There's a reason they don't go into widescale prescription of medications based on minimal promising research. Can you think what it might be?6 -
The difference is getting excited when there is actually something to be excited about not prematurely as some are given to do. There is no reason to discount it but also no reason to force yourself to do it if it makes you miserable. Weight loss is more of a guarantee to make a person healthier and if a restricted eating pattern gets in the way of it then it is BAD no matter how promising it may be in other ways.
No one advocated being miserable or doing anything that can make you miserable. A few of us pointed out that there is promising new research about potential benefits outside of weight loss. No one stated that the research that has been done was anything magic, just that it had been conducted and the results. Also, no one that I saw stated that weight loss is achieved any way other than a calorie deficit.
Several people however did chime in to discredit the research that has been done because there isn’t really enough of it. That is what I’m questioning. The attitude of completely dismissing promising new findings rather than having an attitude of “let’s learn more”.8 -
No one advocated being miserable or doing anything that can make you miserable. A few of us pointed out that there is promising new research about potential benefits outside of weight loss. No one stated that the research that has been done was anything magic, just that it had been conducted and the results. Also, no one that I saw stated that weight loss is achieved any way other than a calorie deficit.
Several people however did chime in to discredit the research that has been done because there isn’t really enough of it. That is what I’m questioning. The attitude of completely dismissing promising new findings rather than having an attitude of “let’s learn more”.
You seem to be misinterpreting the responses. I don't see dismissing. I see people withholding judgement until there is a greater weight of evidence. As I stated above, I practice IF, I eat 2 meals per day. I do it primarily for calorie control. I would love for there to be additional benefits. There is no evidence for this yet that is conclusive in any way for humans.
Most rat studies don't prove in humans. They merely indicate a need for further study. There have been may initial rat and small studies human studies that have indicated a lot of things that didn't prove in larger studies. So, yes, let's go learn more before we come to any conclusions. Just an objective view.
To call the research "promising" is, to me, a mild form of confirmation bias. The research is just the research and is, at this point, inconclusive enough that much more research needs to be done to draw a conclusion for humans. So, neither rah, rah not pooh, pooh.10 -
No one advocated being miserable or doing anything that can make you miserable. A few of us pointed out that there is promising new research about potential benefits outside of weight loss. No one stated that the research that has been done was anything magic, just that it had been conducted and the results. Also, no one that I saw stated that weight loss is achieved any way other than a calorie deficit.
Several people however did chime in to discredit the research that has been done because there isn’t really enough of it. That is what I’m questioning. The attitude of completely dismissing promising new findings rather than having an attitude of “let’s learn more”.
What people have been trying to say is do not allow "promising" research to influence your decision to either try it or abandon it if it is not working for you. If it helps you with calorie control that is great. If it does not and you have no insulin issues then move on.
Because weight loss is already so fragile the emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that it is a tool and only a tool for now. Since it is possible to gain weight with a tool that should help many of us point that out too. I am sure I am not the only one who knows of a person wearing a fitness tracker is gaining weight because they think hitting a step goal justifies eating more food.9 -
You seem to be misinterpreting the responses. I don't see dismissing. I see people withholding judgement until there is a greater weight of evidence. As I stated above, I practice IF, I eat 2 meals per day. I do it primarily for calorie control. I would love for there to be additional benefits. There is no evidence for this yet that is conclusive in any way for humans.
Most rat studies don't prove in humans. They merely indicate a need for further study. There have been may initial rat and small studies human studies that have indicated a lot of things that didn't prove in larger studies. So, yes, let's go learn more before we come to any conclusions. Just an objective view.
To call the research "promising" is, to me, a mild form of confirmation bias. The research is just the research and is, at this point, inconclusive enough that much more research needs to be done to draw a conclusion for humans. So, neither rah, rah not pooh, pooh.
Without intending to pick on you in any way, mmapags, I'd like to riff on the bolded and extend it a little: There are hints that sometimes it's read as criticism when people withhold advocacy and enthusiasm (for IF or any other strategy that is an enthusiasm for some).
"Don't bother to do X unless it really helps you, because there isn't sufficient proof" vs. "It's worth at least giving it a try because it potentially could be good for you in certain ways, even though those aren't proven yet": Those opinions, in a way, are very close, but are often taken as very oppositional.
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snickerscharlie wrote: »
I don't dismiss them, but I don't come on sites like this and claim them as fact, either. Nor would I use myself as an unofficial lab rat in the hopes it does some good without killing me.
"Promising new research" is a dime a dozen. Because, if they didn't think there was promise, initial trials wouldn't have been done in the first place. But there's a big gap between promise and fact, and I'm willing to wait it out.
The only exception to this would be if I was dying of something for which no cure exists and some promising new research on a potential cure was available. I'd try it in a heartbeat because, well, otherwise I'm dead anyway.
This is just an aside, a casual observation, but I sometimes take it a step further: If the "promising" thing seems very unlikely to hurt me, and has the potential to be not only helpful but pleasant (or at least neutral), I may try it to see what happens at n = 1. Lab ratting can be fun and interesting.
For me, this hasn't extended to IF (for my personality/orientation, it would be very unpleasant), but there are a bunch of things that I've tried as n = 1 experiments. I still do some of them: The ones that turned out to be easy, pleasant, noninjurious, and (perhaps only speculatively) potentially helpful.
If someone really, really enjoys large meals (or some other thing like that), I can see how IF could be a reasonable experiment, even if it's neutral with respect to appetite management.
snickerscharlie, you strike me as quite reasonable here and across a range of posts. In the community at large, however, I feel like certain practices become like the religious differences between the dunkers and the sprinklers, very divisive . . . but why? I guess we all like to believe our personal choices are objectively best, maybe? 5 -
pierinifitness wrote: »@heybales, I use Direct Labs. Type www. then their name with no space and then .com and you’ll be on their home page. They have monthly specials so when I see what I’m interested in, I’ll stock up. I use my HSA card to pay.
They send you a requisition form that you take to your local lab. I use Quest. You go in just like any other lab visit and then in about 48 hours, you get an email that your results are in. You then log in to your account and download the results. Absolutely seamless.
If you decide to use, I’m sure you’ll be pleased. Wishing you the best.
A bit ot, but thanks for the info! Since switching to a mostly carnivore style way of eating I want to get blood work more frequently than my doctor's annual panel, with some specific ones that wouldn't normally be included for a regular check-up (like the A1C, LDL-P test etc). I've been looking at some online options, but there's a lot of them out there so it's nice to have a recommendation
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There are some ways of practicing IF that I would find it hard to imagine someone eating enough within their eating window to gain weight. An example would be someone who only eats during a four hour window every 24 hours. Sticking to that, I myself can't imagine being able to eat enough in four hours to gain weight, even if I think of caloric high density foods. Honestly eating enough to maintain in six hours seems difficult, if not very uncomfortable.1
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I will not apologize for prioritizing a person's fitness goal over an eating schedule. I want to help people not recruit them. I want everyone to know the potential downsides of a method to help them avoid them or at least understand what is happening if they fail to make progress or even start gaining.11
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All of those not so new things you are excited about were new once with minimal promising research which prompted more research.
In the end we should all do what works for us but dismissing promising new research for the sole purpose that more still needs to be done is silly. No one will argue more research should still be conducted but that doesn’t discount the potential found in the research that has already been completed either.
And there have been far, far more new things that people get excited about that turn out not to be replicable in later studies. Seems like a lot of excitement wasted at a stage when it's pretty much impossible to know which camp a particular study falls into.4 -
This is just an aside, a casual observation, but I sometimes take it a step further: If the "promising" thing seems very unlikely to hurt me, and has the potential to be not only helpful but pleasant (or at least neutral), I may try it to see what happens at n = 1. Lab ratting can be fun and interesting.
For me, this hasn't extended to IF (for my personality/orientation, it would be very unpleasant), but there are a bunch of things that I've tried as n = 1 experiments. I still do some of them: The ones that turned out to be easy, pleasant, noninjurious, and (perhaps only speculatively) potentially helpful.
If someone really, really enjoys large meals (or some other thing like that), I can see how IF could be a reasonable experiment, even if it's neutral with respect to appetite management.
snickerscharlie, you strike me as quite reasonable here and across a range of posts. In the community at large, however, I feel like certain practices become like the religious differences between the dunkers and the sprinklers, very divisive . . . but why? I guess we all like to believe our personal choices are objectively best, maybe?
I think this typically happens when: (1) "practioners" of a certain diet or way of eating insist that their way is objectively the best, such that everyone should try it, even if it does not appeal; (2) when in support of that argument false claims are made about those who don't find the practice appealing (i.e., a false dichotomy between a certain way of eating and "eating only donuts" or, more relevant here, between IFing and eating mindlessly throughout the day); (3) when those who didn't find the practice to be miraculous note that, that they get slammed and the subject of poorly masked insults; (4) various other similar.7 -
This is just an aside, a casual observation, but I sometimes take it a step further: If the "promising" thing seems very unlikely to hurt me, and has the potential to be not only helpful but pleasant (or at least neutral), I may try it to see what happens at n = 1. Lab ratting can be fun and interesting.
For me, this hasn't extended to IF (for my personality/orientation, it would be very unpleasant), but there are a bunch of things that I've tried as n = 1 experiments. I still do some of them: The ones that turned out to be easy, pleasant, noninjurious, and (perhaps only speculatively) potentially helpful.
If someone really, really enjoys large meals (or some other thing like that), I can see how IF could be a reasonable experiment, even if it's neutral with respect to appetite management.
snickerscharlie, you strike me as quite reasonable here and across a range of posts. In the community at large, however, I feel like certain practices become like the religious differences between the dunkers and the sprinklers, very divisive . . . but why? I guess we all like to believe our personal choices are objectively best, maybe?
I think it's a combination of several factors.
Definitely yes, first and foremost, people do like to believe their choices (however derived at) are the best. Where emotion overtakes logic, however, is when they will hold steadfast in the face of all evidence to the contrary. They're the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" people. Either that, or they just can't stand being wrong. Or a combo of the two.
Then there's the peeps who insist on making things as difficult and as punitive as possible, in some sort of self-flagellatory zeal. (Aka, "the dunkers.") And anyone who isn't doing whatever it is to the same hardcore standards (aka, "the sprinklers") is somehow a lesser human - something which they will be sure to point out at every opportunity. Or even create opportunities where none naturally exist.
Then there's another group I'll call the "show me the money" crowd. These souls are singing the song of my people! We are natural skeptics - definitely open to new ideas or products, but give us the proof instead of just trying to sell us the pudding. Especially instant pudding.
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