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Unwanted advice at gym
Replies
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Of course not, the guy would have called him a d**k or a##h#le. People tend to react if someone tells them to kitten off, regardless of sex.
I honestly think that this needs some real world framing here.
For the sin of saying no to a man, or refusing to talk to him or take his advice, there are instances of women who have been yelled at, beaten up, stalked, sexually assaulted, raped, and/or killed as a response. Heck, women receive death threats for just daring to be in the same job field as other men who don't think they have the right (go check out threats against women who create video games; it's insane).
Worldwide, 30% of women are sexually assaulted by someone they're not in a relationship with sometime during their lives. 70% of women experience some form of violence, sexual or otherwise, from someone they ARE in a relationship with, during their lifetimes. (according to the World Health Organization and the UN)
Women know this. We have lived with knowing this from a young age. Women will know female friends or family members who have been sexually assaulted or attacked. Heck, most women do things in groups in areas where they are more likely to be assaulted (like going down that hallway to the public bathroom - women aren't going to the john in groups solely to be social)
And this has a huge impact on the potential stress level of any random situation where a man is giving advice or trying to tell a woman what to do. And this should not be surprising.
If you knew people who had been attacked by dogs, and 1/3 of the people around you had been attacked by stray dogs, and 70% of people around you had been attacked by their OWN dogs, and you, yourself, have been growled at by dogs around you numerous times...how freaking stressed would you be when you have a dog coming up to you in a situation that has led to dog attacks in other people?
Sure, maybe the dog is fine...but it is going to be freaking stressful for most people, and they are not WRONG that the situation has the potential to get bad for them, because it HAS gone bad for many people in the past. They may quite literally NEED to be wary to be safe for this particular dog.
And when it comes to men and women, absolutely some women learn self-defense to protect themselves, or are more aggressive about defending themselves both verbally and physically. Saying something is stressful is not saying the person feeling stress is weak; it's just saying that they are stressed. And men can be assaulted as well, no question.
But equating the situation as the same between men and women is ignoring the real world and exactly how it impacts our experiences and our expectations, IMHO.
28 -
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life. 23 -
@shaumom mic drop
3 -
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
@phirrgus is not disagreeing with you. He's saying women should not have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior in order to feel safe.14 -
*looks again in mirror*
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
Nope, not a woman
It's that fact of life I intensely dislike. As @quiksylver296
pointed out, not disagreeing with you at all. I do happen to be a rather over protective father of 3 girls though, and while I'm blessed to be very close to my girls, that fact also means I'm hyper aware of everything they deal with, because they tell me, not to mention what I've seen when with them.
So...it may be a fact of life, but I do reserve my right to not like that they (or you) or anyone has to deal with what you do.16 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Of course not, the guy would have called him a d**k or a##h#le. People tend to react if someone tells them to kitten off, regardless of sex.
I honestly think that this needs some real world framing here.
For the sin of saying no to a man, or refusing to talk to him or take his advice, there are instances of women who have been yelled at, beaten up, stalked, sexually assaulted, raped, and/or killed as a response. Heck, women receive death threats for just daring to be in the same job field as other men who don't think they have the right (go check out threats against women who create video games; it's insane).
Worldwide, 30% of women are sexually assaulted by someone they're not in a relationship with sometime during their lives. 70% of women experience some form of violence, sexual or otherwise, from someone they ARE in a relationship with, during their lifetimes. (according to the World Health Organization and the UN)
Women know this. We have lived with knowing this from a young age. Women will know female friends or family members who have been sexually assaulted or attacked. Heck, most women do things in groups in areas where they are more likely to be assaulted (like going down that hallway to the public bathroom - women aren't going to the john in groups solely to be social)
And this has a huge impact on the potential stress level of any random situation where a man is giving advice or trying to tell a woman what to do. And this should not be surprising.
If you knew people who had been attacked by dogs, and 1/3 of the people around you had been attacked by stray dogs, and 70% of people around you had been attacked by their OWN dogs, and you, yourself, have been growled at by dogs around you numerous times...how freaking stressed would you be when you have a dog coming up to you in a situation that has led to dog attacks in other people?
Sure, maybe the dog is fine...but it is going to be freaking stressful for most people, and they are not WRONG that the situation has the potential to get bad for them, because it HAS gone bad for many people in the past. They may quite literally NEED to be wary to be safe for this particular dog.
And when it comes to men and women, absolutely some women learn self-defense to protect themselves, or are more aggressive about defending themselves both verbally and physically. Saying something is stressful is not saying the person feeling stress is weak; it's just saying that they are stressed. And men can be assaulted as well, no question.
But equating the situation as the same between men and women is ignoring the real world and exactly how it impacts our experiences and our expectations, IMHO.
Regarding the bold, it's important to note also that most organizations that track such stats believe incidents to be under reported.
Well said to the entire post by the way.14 -
Cherimoose wrote: »So what's your argument for women who get "approached," assaulted, even raped wearing anything low-key t-shirts and shorts to low-key baggy sweats? And over-the-ear headphones just make you more vulnerable.
Assault and other crimes are irrelevant to the OP's question and my post, so i won't answer that here, sorry. Feel free to PM me.
If you don't want to take responsibility for your public comments then that's on you. Edit: Also you totally misquoted me. As in, either you made and editing mistake with the quotes or you copied and pasted something. I'm assuming it was an editing issue.5 -
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
I'm going to quickly slip in and say that this isn't just an issue that women (cis or trans) deal with. See walking (or just existing) while black.12 -
quiksylver296 wrote: »
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
@phirrgus is not disagreeing with you. He's saying women should not have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior in order to feel safe.
That was my basic assumption. However I’ve found that as aware as some men are, there are many, many that have never thought about safety from a woman’s perspective. Not from any kind of malice, but just never having thought about it.
Even just a couple of years ago, my father was honestly shocked (and a little horrified) that it wasn’t mugging I worried about if I was out walking at night. And he’s a truly amazing single father to two girls! On the other hand, my stepdad was hyper vigilant and made sure that I could punch, kick, scratch, bite, or shoot anything that came at me.
I’m sorry my response was misconstrued @Phirrgus. I’m kind of quirky about wanting the good guys I know to understand a woman’s perspective in moving through the world. if nothing else, to let them know that the various precautions most women take aren’t a personal judgement of them in particular.8 -
quiksylver296 wrote: »
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
@phirrgus is not disagreeing with you. He's saying women should not have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior in order to feel safe.
That was my basic assumption. However I’ve found that as aware as some men are, there are many, many that have never thought about safety from a woman’s perspective. Not from any kind of malice, but just never having thought about it.
Even just a couple of years ago, my father was honestly shocked (and a little horrified) that it wasn’t mugging I worried about if I was out walking at night. And he’s a truly amazing single father to two girls! On the other hand, my stepdad was hyper vigilant and made sure that I could punch, kick, scratch, bite, or shoot anything that came at me.
I’m sorry my response was misconstrued @Phirrgus. I’m kind of quirky about wanting the good guys I know to understand a woman’s perspective in moving through the world. if nothing else, to let them know that the various precautions most women take aren’t a personal judgement of them in particular.
@COGypsy no apologies necessary, but thank you. Awareness is always a good thing. My girls think I'm over protective, because of course they do but I know and have seen some truly oblivious people, and unfortunately have seen the lengths some men, and even some women, will go to in order to "satisfy" themselves.
In the interest of keeping my language clean here, I'll simply say I cannot condemn it strongly enough.4 -
Cherimoose wrote: »No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.
I stopped reading your post when you implied that to talking to people at the gym is sexual harassment. No time for that nonsense, sorry. Chatting in public is not a crime in the U.S. If men didn't talk with women in public, half of us wouldn't have been born!
I suggest that you reread what you wrote, read what other people wrote in response, and then go read about the many many experiences of women around the world. After read about the ways in which victims of assault get blamed and how they do so.
Do your homework and do your part to make a difference.15 -
Cherimoose wrote: »No, I'm really not taking it to seriously. What someone is wearing isn't an invitation to get hit on, harassed, or raped. It is not consent. It also doesn't prevent any of those things. Sexual harassment in all forms is about power, not about what someone is wearing. That you don't want to understand or grapple with that is a symptom of a wider societal issue.
I stopped reading your post when you implied that to talking to people at the gym is sexual harassment. No time for that nonsense, sorry. Chatting in public is not a crime in the U.S. If men didn't talk with women in public, half of us wouldn't have been born!
You have a very lie back and think of England kind of mentality going on - you seem to think that by assuming some things are inevitable, they're justifiable. Not how it works, and it is in fact the kind of attitude that perpetuates these things.
In other words, if half the men out there stopped making poor excuses like this, we wouldn't be having this talk in public.22 -
How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?10
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unstableunicorn wrote: »How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?
I'm going to go with projection.10 -
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
Clearly you aren't a woman Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.
I think you're misreading the person you're responding to, who is saying that it's ridiculous (in a bad way) that women have to live their lives that way.1 -
unstableunicorn wrote: »How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?
By having the details of the incident in the OP involve a lot more than just gym etiquette. What part of he wouldn't leave her alone after she said she didn't need help and he tried to put her in the wrong to force her to accept his company are you missing?3 -
Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.
It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman. Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.
It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.
"One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams
Don't know if you're being intentionally vague here, but I wonder whether you think this quote applies to people who believe that women owe them their time, their attention, their company, etc., regardless of what the women want, and who believe if they're not getting the sex, it's because women are all b*****s and the world owes them better?
Or do you think it applies to women who are "burdening their minds with resentments" about not being able to just live their lives without men thinking they owe them something 20 times a day?4 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.
It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman. Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.
It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.
"One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams
Don't know if you're being intentionally vague here, but I wonder whether you think this quote applies to people who believe that women owe them their time, their attention, their company, etc., regardless of what the women want, and who believe if they're not getting the sex, it's because women are all b*****s and the world owes them better?
Or do you think it applies to women who are "burdening their minds with resentments" about not being able to just live their lives without men thinking they owe them something 20 times a day?
Nope.
...and nope.
A comment on how the mind works - reading into statements and seeing what people want to see, rather than what was stated.
3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »unstableunicorn wrote: »How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?
By having the details of the incident in the OP involve a lot more than just gym etiquette. What part of he wouldn't leave her alone after she said she didn't need help and he tried to put her in the wrong to force her to accept his company are you missing?
You need to dial it waaaaaaaay back. I read the entire thing and was asking rhetorically to make a point to the defensive posters. I’m well aware that the guy the OP encountered was behaving like a predator.
5 -
I feel like this thread has gotten away from everyone. Being bugged by a jerk at the gym is an annoyance, not a tragedy. Yes, it’s true that women (I am one) need to worry about potential predators when accosted by strangers, but this guy didn’t do anything criminal, he was just rude.
The whole other conversation about men and self control is a whole other conversation.
For those gentlemen reading who don’t understand how to approach a woman in public without being rude - pro tip: if you approach a person you find sexually attractive whom you don’t know in any situation or for any reason in which you would not approach someone you had no sexual interest in, you’re doing it wrong. Showing sexual interest in people is something best done after meeting them and finding out if they like you at all. This guy actually had the right idea starting out, he pretended to be interested in her form. Unfortunately he was terrible at pretending, terrible at taking an interest in her form, and his bad attitude to her response made it clear he had other motivations.
Part of consent is that the other person has to be able to say no. In this case, if you parsed the motives for the conversation it might go something like this:
“Hey, are you interested in talking about weight lifting with me? I’m great at patronizing, unsolicited advice.”
“Uh, you seem like a jerk, no thanks.”
“Hey, where do you get off saying no? You hurt my feelings and now you have to make me feel better by telling me it’s not my fault that you don’t want to talk to me. Also, you have to keep talking to me.”
Nope, nope, she doesn’t. She doesn’t have to make him feel better that she now seems pissed off, and she doesn’t have to keep talking to him. And if he keeps insisting, very shortly this crosses the line from innocent bad flirtation to “I’m going to call gym staff, then maybe the police if this keeps up.”13 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »
Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context
I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM!MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »MsHarryWinston wrote: »I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.
Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.
I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.
This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.
Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.
I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.
Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.
No problem.
This thread has since become even more depressing!
Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.
My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.
I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.
It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman. Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.
It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.
"One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams
Don't know if you're being intentionally vague here, but I wonder whether you think this quote applies to people who believe that women owe them their time, their attention, their company, etc., regardless of what the women want, and who believe if they're not getting the sex, it's because women are all b*****s and the world owes them better?
Or do you think it applies to women who are "burdening their minds with resentments" about not being able to just live their lives without men thinking they owe them something 20 times a day?
Nope.
...and nope.
A comment on how the mind works - reading into statements and seeing what people want to see, rather than what was stated.
But the problem is that you're being so vague that the reader has no choice but to guess as to what you mean. Even in rejecting my guesses, you make no attempt to point me to your real meaning.2 -
unstableunicorn wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »unstableunicorn wrote: »How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?
By having the details of the incident in the OP involve a lot more than just gym etiquette. What part of he wouldn't leave her alone after she said she didn't need help and he tried to put her in the wrong to force her to accept his company are you missing?
You need to dial it waaaaaaaay back. I read the entire thing and was asking rhetorically to make a point to the defensive posters. I’m well aware that the guy the OP encountered was behaving like a predator.
OK. It sounded like a literal question, not a rhetorical one to me.1 -
Maybe if the gym instructors paid more attention than just coasting by people wouldnt want to take it upon themselves. I would never give unsolicited advice and would hate to receive it but I do see people doing some shocking stuff in the gym. I saw one man fall off the treadmill the other day and not a instructor for miles. God forbid if he had seriously hurt his self3
-
I'm just going to join Planet Fitness! Dont they have "safe zones" ?5
-
psychod787 wrote: »I'm just going to join Planet Fitness! Dont they have "safe zones" ?
I actually think it would be brilliant if every time a guy came up with unsolicited advice or unwanted conversation that women at Plant Fitness would tap the Lunk Alarm. I'd find it a better use than hitting it because someone puts some effort into a lift.21 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »I'm just going to join Planet Fitness! Dont they have "safe zones" ?
I actually think it would be brilliant if every time a guy came up with unsolicited advice or unwanted conversation that women at Plant Fitness would tap the Lunk Alarm. I'd find it a better use than hitting it because someone puts some effort into a lift.
I'm strangely ok with it.2 -
So no one would say anything to people who are using machines like this? K.
https://youtu.be/q0MOVX-A3R4 2 -
So no one would say anything to people who are using machines like this? K.https://youtu.be/q0MOVX-A3R4
Nope. Not my business and I don't particularly like being sued. 🤷🏼♀️6 -
So no one would say anything to people who are using machines like this? K.
Well, there is some weird looking stuff going on there. But just because someone is using a machine in an unconventional way does not necessarily mean they are following an unsafe practice. The only one where I would feel the need to say something is to the man at the end hogging a machine while he plays games on his phone.
5 -
So no one would say anything to people who are using machines like this? K.https://youtu.be/q0MOVX-A3R4
NOPE! That's what the staff gets paid $8 an hour for....2
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