Unwanted advice at gym

Cherimoose wrote: »

OP - If you want to deter guys from hitting on you, wear large headphones, and wear non-sexy clothes and no makeup.

Yes, it's occasionally appropriate to help others.. like the wandering newbie who's using machines upside down and there's no staff to help. It's not much different than telling someone they dropped something from their wallet, telling a driver their headlights are off, asking a lost tourist if they need help, etc.

Wouldn't it be nice if something that simple would work? Sadly, jerk-i-tude is not always just about actual attraction of a rational nature. Sometimes, it's about manipulation and dominance and showing off.

As a 50-something-year-old woman (not in a gym, but on the sidewalk outside one), I had a group of 20-something men tell me what they wanted me to do to them, and what they wanted to do to me . . . and trust me, it wasn't "bake them oatmeal cookies" or "help me paint my shabby kitchen". I was obese at the time, bundled up in Winter clothes, no makeup, not in any way cute (not my jam), just walking down a sidewalk.

Striving to be less attractive might put off rational people who'd be inclined to flirt. It will have no effect on jerks who want to dominate, intimidate, manipulate, or show off to their equally Neanderthal buddies.

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Thought of this thread in the gym the other day.....

Two very tall and young guys training in what a cynic might regard as a typical way for their demographic (haphazard, awful form, talking a load of cobblers but very enthusiastic) and a petite, young, very attractive female wearing shorts and a crop top.

Female approaches one of the young guys who was making a real mess of deadlifting and gave some good advice which he was happy to take and implement. She isn't a PT but does work at the gym and does know how to lift.

Turns out not all men are diminutives of Richard, women and men with a shared interest can actually converse in a polite way and helpful manner without ego or sex getting in the way.



PS - as a father of a young and attractive woman who has to deal with alcohol fuelled comments about how she looks or dresses please can we stop suggesting it's the fault of the woman?

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

ceiswyn wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

That's an absolutely key point. It really has bleepin' little to do with us as female humans, or our behavior in any way, in the overwhelming majority of cases, when the bad behavior of the other human(s) is extreme. (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/powerful-art-exhibit-powerfully-answers-the-question-what-were-you-wearing_n_59baddd2e4b02da0e1405d2a)

Just FTR, I'm also not too keen on the backhand: That we're of course much less attractive if we dress reasonably/modestly for whatever we're doing, and don't put on makeup. It's a insult/affront twofer.

Cherimoose wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?

It’s completely different, unless you think drivers set out with the aim of hitting a jogger on purpose, then using the excuse that they were wearing dark coloured clothing so couldn’t be seen.

COGypsy wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's not the step before, it's straight up victim blaming.

Ok, first off I am not into hitting on women at the gym. Not my "thing" honestly. Only time I even speak to anyone is if I know them or are interested in a lift or routine they are doing. Not going to "victim" blame here, but, if I came into the gym in a pair of daisy duke shorts and 1/2 t-shirt, I might expect a little attention. Wanted or unwanted. IMHO, the problem has less to do with wants, but the hard wiring of our brains. Now the person giving the unwanted "attention", has the ability to fight their urges, but it goes against our history. When we look at equal rights, outside of small populations around the world, the timeline of treatment is just a blink in our 1million year history. Well, the person who dressed a certain way may not have any intention of getting attention, but the subconscious is a real kitten. Sometimes it will cause us to do things we don't intend to. Nether the gal who wears the skin tight cloths with her breast hanging out, or the guy wearing the skin tight sleeveless t-shirt may intend to get attention. They may think, I feel more comfortable in this and maybe they do, but subconsciously most people are wired to try and attract the opposite sex or same sex.... according to their preference.

Cherimoose wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.

Well if you believed that, and particularly for any men making that argument, what follows is that there should be mass castrations.
That said, testosterone absolutely does not work that way. The behaviors testosterone elicits are entirely dependent on both immediate context and cultural context. Give a bunch of Buddhist monks exogenous testosterone, and what you'll see is them trying to outdo each other in acts of generosity, not hitting on women at the mall.

Heck, the fact that gay men exist, have testosterone, and little interest in going up to women in that way should be a pretty quick example to make you question this belief.

Cherimoose wrote: »

MsHarryWinston wrote: »

I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”
Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

It's no different than suggesting that joggers can reduce the chance of being hit by a car by wearing neon colors instead of dark clothes. Are joggers to blame for bad driving? Of course not. Should motorists drive better? In a perfect world, they would. But they're obviously not going to change any time soon, so we might as well do something to prevent getting hit - yes?

Males are always going to approach in public spaces. It's hard-wired into them due to testosterone and won't change in the near future, so i gave practical tips to reduce how many guys will approach in gyms. It sucks that you have to, but fortunately countless women workout in low-key clothing and survive the ordeal. Same with ugly over-the-ear headphones.

No.