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Unwanted advice at gym

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  • sammidelvecchiosammidelvecchio Member Posts: 791 Member Member Posts: 791 Member
  • PhirrgusPhirrgus Member Posts: 1,904 Member Member Posts: 1,904 Member
    COGypsy wrote: »
    COGypsy wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

    I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

    This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

    Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

    I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
    Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

    Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

    No problem.
    This thread has since become even more depressing!

    Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
    I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM! :D

    All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

    My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

    It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

    Clearly you aren't a woman :D Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.

    @phirrgus is not disagreeing with you. He's saying women should not have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior in order to feel safe.

    That was my basic assumption. However I’ve found that as aware as some men are, there are many, many that have never thought about safety from a woman’s perspective. Not from any kind of malice, but just never having thought about it.

    Even just a couple of years ago, my father was honestly shocked (and a little horrified) that it wasn’t mugging I worried about if I was out walking at night. And he’s a truly amazing single father to two girls! On the other hand, my stepdad was hyper vigilant and made sure that I could punch, kick, scratch, bite, or shoot anything that came at me.

    I’m sorry my response was misconstrued @Phirrgus. I’m kind of quirky about wanting the good guys I know to understand a woman’s perspective in moving through the world. if nothing else, to let them know that the various precautions most women take aren’t a personal judgement of them in particular.

    @COGypsy no apologies necessary, but thank you. Awareness is always a good thing. My girls think I'm over protective, because of course they do :D but I know and have seen some truly oblivious people, and unfortunately have seen the lengths some men, and even some women, will go to in order to "satisfy" themselves.

    In the interest of keeping my language clean here, I'll simply say I cannot condemn it strongly enough.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,525 Member Member Posts: 8,525 Member
    COGypsy wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

    I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

    This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

    Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

    I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
    Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

    Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

    No problem.
    This thread has since become even more depressing!

    Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
    I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM! :D

    All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

    My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

    It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

    Clearly you aren't a woman :D Awareness of my own safety impacts nearly every decision I make. Where, when, with whom and the route I take when I walk; whether I wait for friends in front of the restaurant or in my car; the clothes I wear; the shoes I wear; where I park; who I may casually speak to or make eye contact with; how I carry my keys; how I carry my bags...when I stop to think about it, it's quite a list, but really, it's just a fact of life.

    I think you're misreading the person you're responding to, who is saying that it's ridiculous (in a bad way) that women have to live their lives that way.
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,525 Member Member Posts: 8,525 Member
    How the heck did a thread about gym etiquette devolve to people trying to defend harassment and assault?

    By having the details of the incident in the OP involve a lot more than just gym etiquette. What part of he wouldn't leave her alone after she said she didn't need help and he tried to put her in the wrong to force her to accept his company are you missing?
  • lynn_glenmontlynn_glenmont Member Posts: 8,525 Member Member Posts: 8,525 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

    I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

    This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

    Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

    I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
    Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

    Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

    No problem.
    This thread has since become even more depressing!

    Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
    I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM! :D

    All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

    My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

    It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

    I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.

    It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman.
    Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context :D Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.

    It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.

    "One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams

    Don't know if you're being intentionally vague here, but I wonder whether you think this quote applies to people who believe that women owe them their time, their attention, their company, etc., regardless of what the women want, and who believe if they're not getting the sex, it's because women are all b*****s and the world owes them better?

    Or do you think it applies to women who are "burdening their minds with resentments" about not being able to just live their lives without men thinking they owe them something 20 times a day?
  • CSARdiverCSARdiver Member Posts: 6,261 Member Member Posts: 6,261 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Phirrgus wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I meeean... the whole “no makeup and non-sexy” clothes advice is the step before victim blaming. “Of course you’re going to get hit on, look at what you’re wearing.” “They can’t help it, look at how you dress.”

    Can we please stop putting the responsibility for men’s behaviors on women and their bodies? We shouldn’t have to walk around looking (and possibly feeling as a result) like crap out of fear of being bothered.

    Also, I am here to tell you that looking like crap actually makes you MORE likely to be bothered. Because it marks you out as possibly lacking in confidence, possibly sufficiently unattractive and desperate that you’ll accept even bad forms of attention, and generally signals that you may be good ‘prey’.

    I got WAY more unwanted attention as a miserable obese person than I do as a fit, cheerful and well-dressed normal-weight person.

    This is so true! It’s like you can’t win. I would say that that one could track the “caliber” of treatment based on appearance, but that’s a whole other sociological experiment.

    Oh, and to the post above about the cute girl approaching the guys. I’m not quite sure how to put this except to say, it’s not the same thing. There tends to be a completely different energy between the two scenarios.

    I didn't say or suggest it was the same thing.
    Just a real life example of two people not sterotypes. Intended as an uplifting example as it happens.

    Oh, gotcha! Never mind then, lol, my bad.

    No problem.
    This thread has since become even more depressing!

    Must tell my daughter that next time a customer comments on the size of her breasts that apparently the correct response isn't to confront their behaviour and throw them out of the pub it's for her to wear a sack and sympathise that the bloke is having a bad hormone day.....
    I actually read everything to see why it's taking off the way it did and all I can think is "minefield". One wrong comment and BOOM! :D

    All I wanted to say after reading all the comments is that sometimes it's very easy to attribute views/thoughts/motives etc, in person, much less over the web. That said, There's very little I'm "hardwired" to do, although I'm glad those circuits are in place. I do not have to minimize anyone by my words or actions, and I don't have to tolerate it either.

    My point is, if I decide to take exception to something anyone says or does to me, it isn't because of "who" they are, or "how" they are, or what gender they are or perceive themselves as being or anything else other than that they're probably being a jerk at the moment.

    It's ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on eggshells or modify their behavior just to feel safe and/or live their lives as fully as possible.

    I'm doing the same and see the same reaction although it's not even the wrong comment. Confirmation bias and projection on display.

    It's one comment removed from context that fits a strawman construction in the mind of the outraged. Giving them license and justification to unleash wrath onto the strawman.
    Half of all internet debates would shut down were it not for that tiny bit of misplaced context :D Strawmen are fairly easy to deal with though. But a strawman handing out red herring is a bit tougher lol.

    It's born out of resentment and envy. Easily identified, but impossible to deal with as those mired in such a state are in a prison of their own making.

    "One reason why so many people are unhappy, not knowing why, is that they have burdened their minds with resentments. These evil thoughts pile right on top of happier and generous ones and smother them so that they never get expression. Resentments are a form of hate.... What a dearth of good will and co-operation there are among human beings and nations! What a world this would be if we all worked together, and as a popular diplomat recently expressed it-played together!" George Matthew Adams

    Don't know if you're being intentionally vague here, but I wonder whether you think this quote applies to people who believe that women owe them their time, their attention, their company, etc., regardless of what the women want, and who believe if they're not getting the sex, it's because women are all b*****s and the world owes them better?

    Or do you think it applies to women who are "burdening their minds with resentments" about not being able to just live their lives without men thinking they owe them something 20 times a day?

    Nope.

    ...and nope.

    A comment on how the mind works - reading into statements and seeing what people want to see, rather than what was stated.


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