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Body Positive Movement - For or against?
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I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
it does my heart good to see that there are still a few people left in this day and age with some common sense
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more with you in the idea that "most or not many" people who use the term privilege in social media and in common usage are defining it the same way that it is defined in academic settings. In common use the term is very much being used by one group of people to marginalize, ostracize, and criticize another person or group of people with whom they take issue with. I see it used all the time as an underhanded way of attempting to appear as the injured party while attacking another, boxing them within stereotypes, and attempting to shame them for things that frankly they had no more control over than the group that feels underprivileged.
Throwing around the term "privilege" in the context as it is used commonly today does nothing for increasing understanding, tolerance, or acceptance and instead promotes bigotry, envy, and segregation.5 -
youcantflexcardio wrote: »But the person shoving a big mac in thier face 100lbs overweight claiming they have "fat genetics" and they get winded walking up a flight of stairs...positively encouraging that person not to change is not cool at all.
Sigh. I don't understand what this has to do with the conversation at all, and it's a stereotype anyway (and the choice of words in interesting "shoving in their face."
Personally, I'm way more likely to eat high cal food in public or "pig out" around others now that I'm not overweight, since when I was overweight I was super conscious that people were likely judging what I ate. And I didn't eat Big Macs or fast food anyway, not my thing. That said, clearly I was overweight because I was eating too much for my activity level, and I had some awareness of that, although I also felt out of control until I started losing.
But in any case, none of this has much to do with the thread topic.
What I find interesting is your comment that "positively encouraging that person not to change is not cool." Once again, you appear to not be reading any of the thread before posting, and not to understand what body positivity is. It's not about encouraging people to stay fat, and it's not limited to overweight people in the first place.EDIT: @mbaker566 I think I confused body positivity with fat acceptance...my bad.
Body positivity- good
Fat acceptance- garbage
"Fat acceptance" is a broad group of things that IMO encompasses body positivity, but sometimes is taken to mean things I wouldn't agree with. But WITHIN fat acceptance is something I think is important for many -- the idea that you don't have to hate yourself or think you lack worth as a person because you are fat (and indeed should not). As I mentioned above (again), being able to see myself as a person with worth, despite being overweight, is what allowed me to regain a feeling of control and do the things that helped me lose the weight.
Also what helped me was focusing on the things I felt most control over -- what and how much I ate, my exercise, being active generally. I was not convinced that would work to cause weight loss (it did, of course), but I took as my goal to be as fit and healthy as possible whatever my weight ended up being. That focus on the things I could most easily control was a far more effective way for me to lose than making it all about the need to get the weight off (and also led me to employ a very healthy weight loss plan, no crazy fad or starvation diet out of self hatred or self punishment).
If people say being obese is not a health risk or judge others for losing weight or say weight loss is impossible, I think that's not cool, but that's not what we are talking about (or all that even "health at any size" or "fat acceptance" means to me.
I'd also say that if you see a random fat woman or man eating a Big Mac, you don't actually know how much they'd eaten that day or if they've already lost 50 lbs and are continuing to lose successfully or if it's their once a week fast food meal that they've incorporated into a weight loss plan. So feeling the need to look at them in a judging way is not all that admirable, IMO.7 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).3 -
bmeadows380 wrote: »
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
it does my heart good to see that there are still a few people left in this day and age with some common senseI couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more with you in the idea that "most or not many" people who use the term privilege in social media and in common usage are defining it the same way that it is defined in academic settings. In common use the term is very much being used by one group of people to marginalize, ostracize, and criticize another person or group of people with whom they take issue with. I see it used all the time as an underhanded way of attempting to appear as the injured party while attacking another, boxing them within stereotypes, and attempting to shame them for things that frankly they had no more control over than the group that feels underprivileged.
Throwing around the term "privilege" in the context as it is used commonly today does nothing for increasing understanding, tolerance, or acceptance and instead promotes bigotry, envy, and segregation.
I'm willing to concede that there are people who are using the word privilege in ways that aren't the ones that I alluded to. However, that paired with your above "it does my heart good to see that there are still a few people left in this day and age with some common sense" makes me think that you actually just don't like and/or don't agree with the concept behind the academic usage either.4 -
I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
What are your thoughts on equality and the lack of equality in many areas of society (salaries, education, policing, etc)?1 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.5 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.
Totally agree. I was thinking more about many other possible helpful uses.
I am now imagining people working out at the library.
As an aside, if working out to YouTube videos was my only way to exercise, I wouldn't, as I can't think of much I would hate more. For easy and free activity, I can walk a bunch, and run outside, however. There are definitely places where that would be more difficult, and I am also aware of that, as well as other possible stumbling blocks.
There are many reasons why losing weight can be very difficult for a particular person at a particular time (and I think it's broader than simply class issues, although class issues can certainly play a role).2 -
Yeah - as "easy" and "inexpensive" as it can be to exercise, I think easy leaves out a lot of people and a lot of situations. There's an article that I'll PM you from Runners World that touches on this in a really interesting way.ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.
Totally agree. I was thinking more about many other possible helpful uses.
I am now imagining people working out at the library.
As an aside, if working out to YouTube videos was my only way to exercise, I wouldn't, as I can't think of much I would hate more. For easy and free activity, I can walk a bunch, and run outside, however. There are definitely places where that would be more difficult, and I am also aware of that, as well as other possible stumbling blocks.
There are many reasons why losing weight can be very difficult for a particular person at a particular time (and I think it's broader than simply class issues, although class issues can certainly play a role).3 -
I'm not quoting anyone specific, because the referback is to one of the sub-conversations as a generality, and because I think it will probably tick off both sides (if I may cartoonishly refer to them that way) anyway.
Personally, for the sake of common conversation, I think of "privilege" as a special subcase of "luck" or “good fortune”, often of birth or circumstance that creates some starting advantages in some things for some people. It doesn't necessarily foreclose all things from everyone without that fortune, nor does it necessarily fully guarantee all benefits to those who have it.
Completely denying that there is privilege (luck of class, wealth, race, country, whatever), doesn’t seem to me like common sense, it seems like a lack of empathy for the circumstances and feelings of differently-situated people. OTOH, someone using lack of “privilege” as an argument for the futility of all effort doesn’t win my admiration, either. Those are extremes.
To me, it seems like common sense to believe that some people have more barriers to overcome than others do. Some barriers are fully individual, some apply broadly to groups or classes of people. Barriers – at least the somewhat-navigable ones – are not an excuse, but they can be reasons or explanations.
Sometimes it’s someone’s individual previous actions that reportedly create “privilege” or a lack of it, and I think we’re hinting at that in this thread, such as whether there’s any sense in a concept like “thin privilege”. For me, that’s a tougher thing to understand and accept. There are certainly stereotypes and prejudices that disadvantage overweight people sometimes, in some situations. But letting one’s ideas about someone’s group or class override getting to know their individual specifics is generally a negative, however easy it is to do.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.10 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Having an Internet connection and a device on which you can view YouTube videos is a privilege.4 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Libraries are great. Libraries also frequently have limited hours. The times people who work "day jobs" have free are the same times that libraries are closed. Also, I'm guessing that most libraries are going to at least ponder whether they really want people working out in the space next to the computer station to YouTube cardio and bodyweight videos.2 -
dogWalkerTX wrote: »dogWalkerTX wrote: »100% against. It's pro-obesity insanity.
Actually, in my experience as a morbidly obese person, it was mostly about giving yourself permission to not feel bad about yourself all the gddam time. And also to be offended at people making rude and personal comments.
And believe me, that freedom was such a relief.
I'm glad your take on it was helpful to you. Everyone should love themselves and take good care of themselves. That's not what the "body positivity" movement is about.
The question was for or against. I'm against.
Actually, that is exactly what the body positivity movement is about. We live in a society that marginalizes people who are too fat, too thin, too tall, too short, too pale, too dark, too...something. Especially when we think they are too fat. And we all do it.
The body positivity movement is about learning to think "I am not my body. I am still me whether I am fat/thin, short/tall,..." What a person does once they accept themselves is beyond the scope of the movement.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
I think anyone with an internet connection can get online and look up the term food dessert. When you live somewhere where you don't have a car and the places selling food don't have reliable produce, eating in a satisfying way is a privilege. That this is news to you is a sign of your privilege.
Which I check regularly and enjoy every day. How do you define 'eating in a satisfying way'? Not having access to healthy food and overeating are not the same thing.1 -
dogWalkerTX wrote: »dogWalkerTX wrote: »100% against. It's pro-obesity insanity.
Actually, in my experience as a morbidly obese person, it was mostly about giving yourself permission to not feel bad about yourself all the gddam time. And also to be offended at people making rude and personal comments.
And believe me, that freedom was such a relief.
I'm glad your take on it was helpful to you. Everyone should love themselves and take good care of themselves. That's not what the "body positivity" movement is about.
The question was for or against. I'm against.
The body positivity movement is about learning to think "I am not my body. I am still me whether I am fat/thin, short/tall,..." What a person does once they accept themselves is beyond the scope of the movement.
This I can get on board with
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There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
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There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it.
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There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it.
I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem 
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Libraries are great. Libraries also frequently have limited hours. The times people who work "day jobs" have free are the same times that libraries are closed. Also, I'm guessing that most libraries are going to at least ponder whether they really want people working out in the space next to the computer station to YouTube cardio and bodyweight videos.
Pretty sure we've already clarified that I was not suggesting that people go to the library to workout.0 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)1 -
one of my running friends is from a village in nigeria. he has an internet connection but not everyone there does. his food choices are dependent upon what is available.
he has a garmin but has been mugged more than once and one time they stole his garmin. the online running group opened a gofundme and bought him a new one. but again, not everyone in his village has that opportunity.
he has less privileges than i do but has more than some in his village.
after typing this, i'm not sure what my point was other than showing privilege is also a matter of perspective12 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Choice is a wonderful thing 1 -
I've had the unenviable experience of chatting with people who would push back heavily against that notion. I personally agree with it.one of my running friends is from a village in nigeria. he has an internet connection but not everyone there does. his food choices are dependent upon what is available.
he has a garmin but has been mugged more than once and one time they stole his garmin. the online running group opened a gofundme and bought him a new one. but again, not everyone in his village has that opportunity.
he has less privileges than i do but has more than some in his village.
after typing this, i'm not sure what my point was other than showing privilege is also a matter of perspective
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Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
Being privileged is not a bad thing. Being privileged and not acknowledging it while assuming that everyone else is just lazy or stupid if they can't achieve what you do IS a bad thing (IMHO, of course).
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I think the distinction in terms is where a lot of the back and forth in this thread has come from. Fat acceptance, the body positivity movement, privilege, shaming, bullying, it seems to me like different people are defining these loaded words differently and in some instances are arguing what the loaded terms mean to them, instead of what folks are actually saying. Tied into what @AnnPT77 posted as well, "symbol-reactive". I have this problem when arguing with some family members - they ascribe to a particular world view and it's spokespeople and when I talk, they filter every word through what they've been told I must believe rather than what I am actually saying. It does make communication... complicated.
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I have another word for that
Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
Being privileged is not a bad thing. Being privileged and not acknowledging it while assuming that everyone else is just lazy or stupid if they can't achieve what you do IS a bad thing (IMHO, of course). Overall I agree with this, but these days some people also project their views on "being privileged" onto some people who do not make those assumptions. I don't like that old "both sides do it" argument, but there's a grain of truth to that here.
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I completely agree. Granted, we all filter what's said to us through our own various experiences, but I do believe the art of actually hearing what another person is really saying...that's a dying art.I think the distinction in terms is where a lot of the back and forth in this thread has come from. Fat acceptance, the body positivity movement, privilege, shaming, bullying, it seems to me like different people are defining these loaded words differently and in some instances are arguing what the loaded terms mean to them, instead of what folks are actually saying. Tied into what @AnnPT77 posted as well, "symbol-reactive". I have this problem when arguing with some family members - they ascribe to a particular world view and it's spokespeople and when I talk, they filter every word through what they've been told I must believe rather than what I am actually saying. It does make communication... complicated.
One rule I regularly like to fall back on is the golden rule. Do to others as you would have them do to you. It's pretty hard to go wrong that way, unless someone wants to double down and attempt to really push their views/labels/definitions.4 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Just a mild suggestion: Don't stop. You seem like a smart, decent guy: You should hang around, and join in.
Learn to recognize that chemical rush you mentioned, and stop before you hit post. Read again, think more, post something less polemical, something that fosters communication or connection.
There could be a chemical rush from that, too, ya never know. 2 -
I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
I also have absolutely no clue what is meant by regressive in the context of saying all post-modernist thought is regressive. It reeks of just throwing terms out there to score points with people that already accept your philosophy and just need a word as a rallying cry.
I'd also bet $100 you can't show your proposed logical endpoint of privilege exists down to it resulting in individualism, without an is-ought fallacy.6 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
Agree, but it does seem to be very much overused in current popular discourse (although I am sure it depends on who you are interacting with). A book I quite liked on the topic is Phoebe Maltz Bovy's The Perils of Privilege. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250091208) I think it's pretty thoughtful and even-handed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/03/23/the-last-thing-on-privilege-youll-ever-need-to-read/2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I believe people can do what they want with their bodies and life choices. But if you're not happy with your body and life choices it's not the problem of people who have made different life choices....
imagine if I started attacking people on social media who were posting up pics of them enjoying a drink at a party - because I cant...
I don't believe anyone has suggested doing this or spoken approvingly of such behavior. To me, such things would be the antithesis of body positivity. So it seems like a strawman.
IME, accepting yourself despite the imperfections of your body and past eating/exercise choices and NOT feeling shame and self-hatred and out of control, but instead realizing "I can do this" and wanting to do it as a positive thing for yourself was basically tied up with body positivity and what allowed me to make positive changes (in my head I said they were good and worth it whether or not I lost weight) and, indeed, to lose weight.
The idea that most fat people are sitting around attacking people on social media for being thin is perhaps a fun thing for you to think about, but I don't think it's reality. Plus, people who attack others based on envy are more likely to be suffering from self-hatred than to have a real attitude of positivity.
This sums up the absurd notion of privilege. An embodiment of envy.
I couldn't disagree more. It sounds like you have a very poor understanding of what most, if not many, people mean when they're talking about privilege. Looking at sociology texts on the subject might be one good place to start for you that gets away from "laymen" discussing it (despite the fact that everyone who I know that talks about privilege in the "power and privilege" sort of context is using the academic meaning). Gender studies and ethic studies texts would be other good places to find overviews).
I understand what it means and what it's attempting to produce. What's piteous is that the theory and underlying concept, if realized to it's logical endpoint - results in individualism. So either proponents haven't realized this yet, or more insidiously, using this to gain power.
It is entirely regressive as is all post-modernist thought.
Seeing as conceptions of privilege exist in the writing of Du Bois as far back as 1903, I don't think privilege is a concept that could be called necessarily post-modern.
Agree, but it does seem to be very much overused in current popular discourse (although I am sure it depends on who you are interacting with). A book I quite liked on the topic is Phoebe Maltz Bovy's The Perils of Privilege. (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250091208) I think it's pretty thoughtful and even-handed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/03/23/the-last-thing-on-privilege-youll-ever-need-to-read/
Oh, I'm not in disagreement. Much of leftbook is a cesspit of opression olympics to put oneself in the least privilege position to force an interlocutor to self-crit and going into silence.
That doesn't excuse the Jordan Petersons of the internet saying stuff like it doesn't exist because - snarl-word - Post-Modernist Marxists, which is an oxymoron.5 -
I think that body positivity can be really important. People shouldn’t feel their worth or value is tied to certain body traits.
It’s easy for people to try and push acceptance for themselves by putting down another group (by saying that REAL women have curves or pushing thinness as an ideal goal) but what I’ve seen/heard of body positivity is that it’s trying to just promote that all bodies are okay.
I know it’s not exactly the same, but I also support fat acceptance, because I have seen some people have an attitude that like.. they are okay w body positivity EXCEPT if you are fat/obese. And I don’t think that’s helpful. If someone is fat, they still matter as a person and it’s okay for them to exist without trying desperately to not be fat. Their weight isn’t the most important thing about them and it might not even be something they need to focus on.6 -
These movements grow in roughly the same manner - from a legitimate concern which needs to be reviewed, but once addressed the momentum isn't stopped. People are too invested into the political animus and branch far beyond, so movements unreliant on competency inevitably trend to corruption - unchecked consolidation of power.
What is the purpose of recognizing privilege? Is there a resulting action from this? If one was to conduct a comparative analysis of successful and unsuccessful individuals and adapt behaviors to better prepare the unsuccessful, then this has potential for good. If used to remove "roadblocks" this has potential for good. Check the system for systemic unfairness - again potential for good. If simply used to fulfill a narcissistic need to justify fantasy and reject reality, then there is no potential for good. If used politically to pit one group against another - while there may be a theoretical potential for good historically this has resulted in starvation and genocide.
It's also incredibly dishonest (although insidiously brilliant) how binary thought results in very specific recognition of privilege in certain areas while completely ignoring others. Although I suspect this will continue to increase given time as a good majority active seek and promote some manner of how they do are part of a victim class. It is far easier to destroy than create, as such far easier to criticize others than change your behavior.
There's a foundational flaw in the logic which presumes that man is good and that if the system were to only be tweaked, life would be better. Reality is quite the opposite as your chances of making this worse greatly exceed your chances for improving anything for anyone. Man has an equal capacity for good and evil, but left unchecked trends to evil. The most effective means of mitigating this is serving a higher purpose beyond the individual - beyond generations.
Another foundational flaw is that of zero sum - that the assets are fixed. The resentful look at whoever they see as having life better and cannot see beyond privilege - skinny genes, high metabolism, etc. The fit did not get so by making the obese, nor did the obese suffer at the hands of the fit. Assets in nearly all systems are variable - they expand and contract - are created and destroyed.
The fatal flaw in privilege, and this also lies at the heart of postmoderism is the limit of scope. Any hypothesis worth review is taken to extreme to ensure consistency. Privilege is highly scoped by very specific criteria to establish a false narrative to gain political power. Competency for example is a very real privilege. The competent are given increasing challenges while the incompetent are given less. Attractiveness, sex, sexual orientation, gender, age, hair color, eye color, height, weight, epidermal pigmentation, IQ, EQ, culture, race, creed, genetics - carried out infinitesimally this brings us and infinitesimal number of privileges, which brings us inevitably to the individual. No two humans think and act the same every time - and you've once again stumbled into the age of enlightenment. Congratulations! You've discovered what we figured out 300 years ago (which figured out what we knew 2000 years ago).
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