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Body Positive Movement - For or against?
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ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.5 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.
Totally agree. I was thinking more about many other possible helpful uses.
I am now imagining people working out at the library.
As an aside, if working out to YouTube videos was my only way to exercise, I wouldn't, as I can't think of much I would hate more. For easy and free activity, I can walk a bunch, and run outside, however. There are definitely places where that would be more difficult, and I am also aware of that, as well as other possible stumbling blocks.
There are many reasons why losing weight can be very difficult for a particular person at a particular time (and I think it's broader than simply class issues, although class issues can certainly play a role).2 -
Yeah - as "easy" and "inexpensive" as it can be to exercise, I think easy leaves out a lot of people and a lot of situations. There's an article that I'll PM you from Runners World that touches on this in a really interesting way.ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Though I can't imagine that people are working out to videos on Youtube at the library.
Totally agree. I was thinking more about many other possible helpful uses.
I am now imagining people working out at the library.
As an aside, if working out to YouTube videos was my only way to exercise, I wouldn't, as I can't think of much I would hate more. For easy and free activity, I can walk a bunch, and run outside, however. There are definitely places where that would be more difficult, and I am also aware of that, as well as other possible stumbling blocks.
There are many reasons why losing weight can be very difficult for a particular person at a particular time (and I think it's broader than simply class issues, although class issues can certainly play a role).3 -
I'm not quoting anyone specific, because the referback is to one of the sub-conversations as a generality, and because I think it will probably tick off both sides (if I may cartoonishly refer to them that way) anyway.
Personally, for the sake of common conversation, I think of "privilege" as a special subcase of "luck" or “good fortune”, often of birth or circumstance that creates some starting advantages in some things for some people. It doesn't necessarily foreclose all things from everyone without that fortune, nor does it necessarily fully guarantee all benefits to those who have it.
Completely denying that there is privilege (luck of class, wealth, race, country, whatever), doesn’t seem to me like common sense, it seems like a lack of empathy for the circumstances and feelings of differently-situated people. OTOH, someone using lack of “privilege” as an argument for the futility of all effort doesn’t win my admiration, either. Those are extremes.
To me, it seems like common sense to believe that some people have more barriers to overcome than others do. Some barriers are fully individual, some apply broadly to groups or classes of people. Barriers – at least the somewhat-navigable ones – are not an excuse, but they can be reasons or explanations.
Sometimes it’s someone’s individual previous actions that reportedly create “privilege” or a lack of it, and I think we’re hinting at that in this thread, such as whether there’s any sense in a concept like “thin privilege”. For me, that’s a tougher thing to understand and accept. There are certainly stereotypes and prejudices that disadvantage overweight people sometimes, in some situations. But letting one’s ideas about someone’s group or class override getting to know their individual specifics is generally a negative, however easy it is to do.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.10 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Having an Internet connection and a device on which you can view YouTube videos is a privilege.4 -
ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Libraries are great. Libraries also frequently have limited hours. The times people who work "day jobs" have free are the same times that libraries are closed. Also, I'm guessing that most libraries are going to at least ponder whether they really want people working out in the space next to the computer station to YouTube cardio and bodyweight videos.2 -
dogWalkerTX wrote: »dogWalkerTX wrote: »100% against. It's pro-obesity insanity.
Actually, in my experience as a morbidly obese person, it was mostly about giving yourself permission to not feel bad about yourself all the gddam time. And also to be offended at people making rude and personal comments.
And believe me, that freedom was such a relief.
I'm glad your take on it was helpful to you. Everyone should love themselves and take good care of themselves. That's not what the "body positivity" movement is about.
The question was for or against. I'm against.
Actually, that is exactly what the body positivity movement is about. We live in a society that marginalizes people who are too fat, too thin, too tall, too short, too pale, too dark, too...something. Especially when we think they are too fat. And we all do it.
The body positivity movement is about learning to think "I am not my body. I am still me whether I am fat/thin, short/tall,..." What a person does once they accept themselves is beyond the scope of the movement.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
I think anyone with an internet connection can get online and look up the term food dessert. When you live somewhere where you don't have a car and the places selling food don't have reliable produce, eating in a satisfying way is a privilege. That this is news to you is a sign of your privilege.
Which I check regularly and enjoy every day. How do you define 'eating in a satisfying way'? Not having access to healthy food and overeating are not the same thing.1 -
dogWalkerTX wrote: »dogWalkerTX wrote: »100% against. It's pro-obesity insanity.
Actually, in my experience as a morbidly obese person, it was mostly about giving yourself permission to not feel bad about yourself all the gddam time. And also to be offended at people making rude and personal comments.
And believe me, that freedom was such a relief.
I'm glad your take on it was helpful to you. Everyone should love themselves and take good care of themselves. That's not what the "body positivity" movement is about.
The question was for or against. I'm against.
The body positivity movement is about learning to think "I am not my body. I am still me whether I am fat/thin, short/tall,..." What a person does once they accept themselves is beyond the scope of the movement.
This I can get on board with
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There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
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There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it.
5 -
Watching what you eat and working out is not a privilege,
they are a privilege. sometimes, you have little choice in what you eat. availability, finances, budget, non1st world problems. sometimes, you work 2-3 jobs, have kids or family obligations, long commutes.
when you are struggling to get by or survive, all of it becomes much more fuzzy.
Choosing to not overeat and become obese is not a privilege. being able to afford a gym could be seen as a privilege but anyone with an internet connection can get on Youtube and learn how to get and stay in shape without any equipment.
Becoming overweight is is the result of having too much food - now that's privilege.
Self medicating with fatty and sugary foods due to an unprivileged life situation is a different animal.
Having the time to workout is a privilege, yes. Having time to buy and prepare non calorie dense is also a privilege. If we want to get right down to it, being able to be secure in the fact that you won't have to make the choice between food, keeping the water on, and keeping the electricity on is also a privilege.
But choosing not to put excessive amounts of the calorie dense food in one's mouth is a personal decision, not a privilege.5 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it.
I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem 
1 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »ftr, an internet connection, and something to receive it, is a privilege
Libraries do provide these. Around here it's common for poorer people to use the library for that purpose.
I'm sure there are places where libraries are less accessible, however (I just think noting that this is one of the great services libraries provide is worthwhile).
Libraries are great. Libraries also frequently have limited hours. The times people who work "day jobs" have free are the same times that libraries are closed. Also, I'm guessing that most libraries are going to at least ponder whether they really want people working out in the space next to the computer station to YouTube cardio and bodyweight videos.
Pretty sure we've already clarified that I was not suggesting that people go to the library to workout.0 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)1 -
one of my running friends is from a village in nigeria. he has an internet connection but not everyone there does. his food choices are dependent upon what is available.
he has a garmin but has been mugged more than once and one time they stole his garmin. the online running group opened a gofundme and bought him a new one. but again, not everyone in his village has that opportunity.
he has less privileges than i do but has more than some in his village.
after typing this, i'm not sure what my point was other than showing privilege is also a matter of perspective12 -
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
^^^This. Communication can be difficult as it is. When terms commonly used by several different people are defined by those people in several different ways communication can stagnate and a war of words breaks out. In my tiny corner of the world experience in the form of walking in the others shoes will always carry more weight than academically learned definitions. An example would be the short account of two young children answering a quiz question that I read about decades ago. 1 child was from a poor family, the other from a wealthy family.
Question: "What do you place your tea cup on when you put it down?"
A saucer or the table?
The poor child said table, the wealthy said saucer. Both are right per their 'learned' experience.
"Privilege" can be used with positive or negative connotations. It would be nice if that, and other "hot" terms were used as originally intended instead of insults. Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
100% agree. Also on the polarization thing. I've noticed in myself that I find arguing on the Internet very stimulating and it must be releasing some kind of chemical rush in my brain. I know it's not good for me so I'm going to mindfully and consciously stop doing it. I keep finding myself coming back for more lol. I don't reply often, but do acknowledge I might have a problem
Same here - just another bad habit that needs kicking into touch. My life just seems to be a succession of things I have to stop doing... At least i can enjoy my privilege (for now!)
Choice is a wonderful thing
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I've had the unenviable experience of chatting with people who would push back heavily against that notion. I personally agree with it.one of my running friends is from a village in nigeria. he has an internet connection but not everyone there does. his food choices are dependent upon what is available.
he has a garmin but has been mugged more than once and one time they stole his garmin. the online running group opened a gofundme and bought him a new one. but again, not everyone in his village has that opportunity.
he has less privileges than i do but has more than some in his village.
after typing this, i'm not sure what my point was other than showing privilege is also a matter of perspective
3 -
Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
Being privileged is not a bad thing. Being privileged and not acknowledging it while assuming that everyone else is just lazy or stupid if they can't achieve what you do IS a bad thing (IMHO, of course).
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I think the distinction in terms is where a lot of the back and forth in this thread has come from. Fat acceptance, the body positivity movement, privilege, shaming, bullying, it seems to me like different people are defining these loaded words differently and in some instances are arguing what the loaded terms mean to them, instead of what folks are actually saying. Tied into what @AnnPT77 posted as well, "symbol-reactive". I have this problem when arguing with some family members - they ascribe to a particular world view and it's spokespeople and when I talk, they filter every word through what they've been told I must believe rather than what I am actually saying. It does make communication... complicated.
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I have another word for that
Having a privilege is not a bad thing.
There are a bunch of terms in common parlance that seem to bring out symbol-reactive behavior, and feed polarization. I wish there were ways we could be trying to understand the pictures in each other’s heads, rather than reacting to specific words we use to try to communicate them.
Being privileged is not a bad thing. Being privileged and not acknowledging it while assuming that everyone else is just lazy or stupid if they can't achieve what you do IS a bad thing (IMHO, of course). Overall I agree with this, but these days some people also project their views on "being privileged" onto some people who do not make those assumptions. I don't like that old "both sides do it" argument, but there's a grain of truth to that here.
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I completely agree. Granted, we all filter what's said to us through our own various experiences, but I do believe the art of actually hearing what another person is really saying...that's a dying art.I think the distinction in terms is where a lot of the back and forth in this thread has come from. Fat acceptance, the body positivity movement, privilege, shaming, bullying, it seems to me like different people are defining these loaded words differently and in some instances are arguing what the loaded terms mean to them, instead of what folks are actually saying. Tied into what @AnnPT77 posted as well, "symbol-reactive". I have this problem when arguing with some family members - they ascribe to a particular world view and it's spokespeople and when I talk, they filter every word through what they've been told I must believe rather than what I am actually saying. It does make communication... complicated.
One rule I regularly like to fall back on is the golden rule. Do to others as you would have them do to you. It's pretty hard to go wrong that way, unless someone wants to double down and attempt to really push their views/labels/definitions.4
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