Coronavirus prep
Replies
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paperpudding wrote: »Genuine questions.
How do people eat/drink in a restaruant if they have to wear masks??
Mask wearing hasnt been a big thing in Australia - people can choose to wear them if they want of course and a few do - but most people are not and we are not being encouraged, let alone mandated, to do so.
Question 2 - are the easing of restrictions in US being done as a result of numbers dropping enough to be considered safe to do so? - or are they just being eased because authorities think they have been there for long enough./ people wont adhere anyway/ , the economy needs them to reduce??
yes i know US is a big place and different locations might be doing things differently - but answer for your specific location or area as a whole.
Restrictions are being gradually eased here in South Australia - and that is in response to massive drop in COVID numbers
Our restrictions weren't as tight in first place as many other places - but in comparison to what still seems high numbers in US, we are only now re opening outdoor playgrounds, - gyms/restaraunts are still closed (open for takeaway only) and gatherings are still restricted to 10 people.
This with a state of 5 remaining active cases in whole state (all in home or hospital quarantine, of course) and zero new cases for nearly 2 weeks.
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State borders are still closed except for essential travellers/returnees who have to self isolate for 14 days.
In superrvised hotel accomodation, in case of overseas returnees.
I think it is very safe for us to move forward, although we are still doing it very gradually.
1. I'm in Arkansas. The Gov set restaurant directive. Wear masks until your food arrives. The staff wears masks, and patrons wear masks while giving orders and speaking to the staff, but are allowed to remove it after they've placed their order before eating. Tables are set far enough apart this should not be an issue.
2. In my opinion, yes. I'm in a state that has always had low case numbers. We are not densely populated, less travel from a lot of the people in our state, so our numbers haven't been bad. We're taking a measured approach to reopening, I think we are being careful. More careful than our neighbors TX (IMO) but that is their choice to make.2 -
PA shut down completely. As of next Friday, parts of the state will slightly reopen, meaning construction and some factories can go about their business, but not shops and restaurants. The selection of counties was based on a low number of cases and the number of public health workers they have to do contact tracing and the hospitals available. So the county next to ours with zero deaths and only 7 cases can't open because it doesn't have a hospital. There are a few areas like that. Mostly it's the really rural areas in the north and west that are opening slightly. Our county has been seeing a 10% increase per day in the number of cases, so it will be a while before it opens up again. We are a mostly rural county, so I'm not sure why it's a hot spot. When the Governor said that masks were mandatory in all businesses, there were a few grumbles on Facebook, but I've mostly seen compliance. OTOH, a lot of the people wearing the masks are wearing them wrong, so the noses are exposed. I don't know if that's ignorance or a subtle rebellion.4
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Husband and I got hair cuts yesterday. Salon was very cautious. You had to wait outside til they called you in, they provided a mask if you didn’t have one, hairdresser wore one too, they couldn’t blow dry or style you.
Getting a cut with a mask is an experience. It’s definitely not a perfect cut but I wear my hair super short and was anxious to get some of the mop gone.
I tipped my gal 100%. I know she and her tattoo-artist husband have probably been hurting.6 -
And boy, their phone was ringing off the hook, too!!!!!!2
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@Bry_Fitness70 Understood and appreciated. It's repulsive. The true essence of a grape is revealed when it's squeezed. Some are downright sour.3
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No parties around me. Lots of people out with nicer weather, but lots of masks, decent social distancing, although I think it's not as good in the popular parks. Other neighborhoods are apparently not doing so much, as there have been numerous big house parties broken up. New policy is to fine those having house parties $5000 and tow the cars of party-goers.
On a personal level I've heard of people doing things like teaming up with another family who have been social distancing responsibly so families can share the burden. I think that seems reasonable and pretty much safe.
No big house parties for us, but we socially isolated for 8 weeks. May 1 was our second extended date and now we're extended through May 15, but some restrictions have been lifted such as state parks open for day use, non essential retail doing curbside, golf courses open, etc.
My wife and I talked about it and determined that 8 weeks of total social isolation was about all we could handle and with the lifting of some restrictions on May 1 decided that we would, in a responsible way, start seeing some of our friends and family again. No big house parties or anything, I think that would be irresponsible. We had my mom over last Saturday and it was her first time seeing her grandchildren in 8 weeks. We sat on the patio outside and swam in the pool.
We're having another couple over with their kids that we hang out with quite a bit...we miss them, and also our boys need some social interaction with other kids...they're starting to get weird. It'll be the same...mostly outside on the patio and the pool and grill some burgers or something. No finger food appetizers and the like. We usually hang out together with another friend of mine and his kids, but we've decided that's too many people as it would be 6 kids total and 5 adults. We've actually started limiting our gatherings even before this because 6 kids go absolutely crazy.
We're at the point here where precautions should still be taken, but I think some low level social interaction is not unreasonable. Most of our new cases are coming from McKinley County and they have almost half of our total cases. Cases in the metro area have dropped off significantly, with most now coming from assisted living homes and nursing homes. While there is still risk, my feelings are that having a couple over with their kids or my mom over is pretty low risk at this point, particularly as we aren't congregating in the house close together. Total social isolation can only be sustained for so long, and we're definitely at that point.10 -
paperpudding wrote: »Genuine questions.
How do people eat/drink in a restaruant if they have to wear masks??
Mask wearing hasnt been a big thing in Australia - people can choose to wear them if they want of course and a few do - but most people are not and we are not being encouraged, let alone mandated, to do so.
Question 2 - are the easing of restrictions in US being done as a result of numbers dropping enough to be considered safe to do so? - or are they just being eased because authorities think they have been there for long enough./ people wont adhere anyway/ , the economy needs them to reduce??
yes i know US is a big place and different locations might be doing things differently - but answer for your specific location or area as a whole.
Restrictions are being gradually eased here in South Australia - and that is in response to massive drop in COVID numbers
Our restrictions weren't as tight in first place as many other places - but in comparison to what still seems high numbers in US, we are only now re opening outdoor playgrounds, - gyms/restaraunts are still closed (open for takeaway only) and gatherings are still restricted to 10 people.
This with a state of 5 remaining active cases in whole state (all in home or hospital quarantine, of course) and zero new cases for nearly 2 weeks.
.
State borders are still closed except for essential travellers/returnees who have to self isolate for 14 days.
In superrvised hotel accomodation, in case of overseas returnees.
I think it is very safe for us to move forward, although we are still doing it very gradually.
In New Mexico, restaurants are drive through and take out only still. They aren't open to sit down and eat. When they do open, my guess would be that staff will be wearing masks, but it's pretty much impossible to sit down and eat with a mask without taking it on and off and touching your face a gazillion times which would completely defeat the purpose.
Mask wearing is or isn't a thing in New Mexico, depending on where you are in the state. It is more commonly practiced in metro areas than outlying rural areas. Masks are recommended by our governor as well as the CDC, however, it is not mandated by the government. There are very few places in the US that is mandating masks. We do have some stores here that require you to have a mask to enter, but that's their own policy, not something mandated by government...kinda like no shoes, no shirt, no service....so now it's no shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service.
There are a handful of states that have basically opened everything up and none of them are even in line with the white house recommendations of 14 days with declining numbers and phased re-opening...it'll be interesting to see where their numbers go. New Mexico is basically following the federal guidelines to re-open...14 days overall declining cases and more importantly hospitalizations and deaths. We have seen that for the most part across the state except for McKinley County which has now been locked down and isolated from the rest of the state with all roads in and out barricaded by the National Guard. We eased a few restrictions on May 1, but most are still in place...we anticipate a phase 1 re-open on May 16 which means significant restrictions will still be in place, but we will slowly start loosening the belt.
I'm curious as to what winter will bring in the southern hemisphere...we are certainly expecting another surge come our cold and flu season, but our health care system should be more prepared and capable by then...hopefully. There is talk of school this coming fall to be done with classes cut in half with one half attending two days and the other half attending another two days with distance and online learning in between actual going to school days. If this is the case, it will be extremely hard on working parents, particularly if employers are adverse to remote working.4 -
SuzySunshine99 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Genuine questions.
How do people eat/drink in a restaruant if they have to wear masks??
Mask wearing hasnt been a big thing in Australia - people can choose to wear them if they want of course and a few do - but most people are not and we are not being encouraged, let alone mandated, to do so.
Question 2 - are the easing of restrictions in US being done as a result of numbers dropping enough to be considered safe to do so? - or are they just being eased because authorities think they have been there for long enough./ people wont adhere anyway/ , the economy needs them to reduce??
yes i know US is a big place and different locations might be doing things differently - but answer for your specific location or area as a whole.
Restrictions are being gradually eased here in South Australia - and that is in response to massive drop in COVID numbers
Our restrictions weren't as tight in first place as many other places - but in comparison to what still seems high numbers in US, we are only now re opening outdoor playgrounds, - gyms/restaraunts are still closed (open for takeaway only) and gatherings are still restricted to 10 people.
This with a state of 5 remaining active cases in whole state (all in home or hospital quarantine, of course) and zero new cases for nearly 2 weeks.
.
State borders are still closed except for essential travellers/returnees who have to self isolate for 14 days.
In superrvised hotel accomodation, in case of overseas returnees.
I think it is very safe for us to move forward, although we are still doing it very gradually.
Answer 1: My state (Illinois) is still not allowing dine-in at restaurants, but from video I have seen in states allowing it...
The customers are not wearing masks, only the servers, hosts, and other employees are. The states that are loosening their restrictions are not requiring masks.
Answer 2: Of the states easing restrictions, a grand total of zero have met the federal government's own guidelines for when it is safe to do so (14 consecutive days with reducing cases). In fact, some still have rising numbers, but are easing restrictions anyways. As to why...they can give any excuse they want, but it is 100 percent political. I can't go into further details without violating the "no political debates" policy here.
100% this. But speaking from Chicago they may get away with it and then declare that everything was an overreaction (including in places like Chicago), since it really is way worse in some parts of the US than others.
I don't care if rural parts of the US open up vs. whining although from what I saw here before the shut down the economic blow was way more based on personal choices than the official shut down. I wouldn't go to a restaurant or play now even if I could (common parts of my social life before). And as I've noted before the Archdiocese of Chicago banned in person mass before the city shut down.5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »No parties around me. Lots of people out with nicer weather, but lots of masks, decent social distancing, although I think it's not as good in the popular parks. Other neighborhoods are apparently not doing so much, as there have been numerous big house parties broken up. New policy is to fine those having house parties $5000 and tow the cars of party-goers.
On a personal level I've heard of people doing things like teaming up with another family who have been social distancing responsibly so families can share the burden. I think that seems reasonable and pretty much safe.
No big house parties for us, but we socially isolated for 8 weeks. May 1 was our second extended date and now we're extended through May 15, but some restrictions have been lifted such as state parks open for day use, non essential retail doing curbside, golf courses open, etc.
My wife and I talked about it and determined that 8 weeks of total social isolation was about all we could handle and with the lifting of some restrictions on May 1 decided that we would, in a responsible way, start seeing some of our friends and family again. No big house parties or anything, I think that would be irresponsible. We had my mom over last Saturday and it was her first time seeing her grandchildren in 8 weeks. We sat on the patio outside and swam in the pool.
We're having another couple over with their kids that we hang out with quite a bit...we miss them, and also our boys need some social interaction with other kids...they're starting to get weird. It'll be the same...mostly outside on the patio and the pool and grill some burgers or something. No finger food appetizers and the like. We usually hang out together with another friend of mine and his kids, but we've decided that's too many people as it would be 6 kids total and 5 adults. We've actually started limiting our gatherings even before this because 6 kids go absolutely crazy.
We're at the point here where precautions should still be taken, but I think some low level social interaction is not unreasonable. Most of our new cases are coming from McKinley County and they have almost half of our total cases. Cases in the metro area have dropped off significantly, with most now coming from assisted living homes and nursing homes. While there is still risk, my feelings are that having a couple over with their kids or my mom over is pretty low risk at this point, particularly as we aren't congregating in the house close together. Total social isolation can only be sustained for so long, and we're definitely at that point.
Yeah, I think this makes total sense.0 -
Most people are doing it because they're wrong-headed in some way. A few people are doing it because health problems mean they can't breathe properly with a mask (some areas have explicitly exempted these people from mask recommendations, IMU).I was at the grocery store Sunday and they have a continuous speaking thingie going on in the background, which clearly not everyone listens to because one thing it said was to please wear facial protection inside the store to keep everyone safer. Maybe 90% do wear face masks but there are still a few that don't.
What is preventing them from doing something so simple, even if they feel it's a farce, or whatever their reasoning could be? I wish each and every store would make it mandatory in order to get through their doors. Isn't it the right for their business to request that? It wouldn't need to get political?? People would have no choice but to wear one because they need to get groceries. 
I just don't understand.
(snip)
Before we start with "what are they doing out, with health problems?": I've mentioned before that I belong to an international virtual group for "elder orphans", people over 55 with no immediate family to support them. Some of them (not me) have few friends IRL, or only friends with worse health conditions. Not everything from everywhere that people need can be ordered for delivery, and some people don't know how anyway.
Yeah, sure, 90%+ of non-mask-wearers are probably uncaring nincompoops. But let's don't assume it's 100%, maybe. Empathy is a 360-degree thing, I hope.11 -
The social isolation is definitely getting to us here. I’m trying a socially distanced girl date on Saturday—we drive separately and meet at a local park early in the am to kayak. I’ll bring the kayaks, so the only time we need to be within a few feet of each other will be for the 1 min carry to the shore and back (early hour = hopeful for a super close spot, though even a crap spot is a 2 min walk, and we’ll be on opposite sides and ends of an 11’ kayak). If this goes well, I might see if she wants to try it with one of our boys at a time (we have two youth kayaks too, which I can carry by myself)4
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paperpudding wrote: »(snip)
Question 2 - are the easing of restrictions in US being done as a result of numbers dropping enough to be considered safe to do so? - or are they just being eased because authorities think they have been there for long enough./ people wont adhere anyway/ , the economy needs them to reduce??
(snip)
Even here (Michigan, US), with a supposedly over-reacting governor, I think it's a mix. Some numbers are moving in hopeful directions, and things are starting to be gradually relaxed for economic reasons, starting with lower-risk economic activity, with lots of consultation with industry reps about safe practices to allow more of that to happen.
This is a balancing act, I think: We need to minimize deaths (or serious health damage) from COVID, and keep hospitals from being overwhelmed such that X level of infection creates more deaths/damage than it would if hospitals could keep up. We also need to avoid serious economic damage, because that translates into not just human misery, but even deaths and serious damage, too (suicides, aggravation of addictions, interpersonal violence, potentially developmental consequences for children that could bear bad fruit for decades to come, etc.).2 -
Yes it's good to be open to the possibility that someone is not wearing a mask for reasons other than that they're a horrible person. We really don't know what's going on in someone's life.10
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1. Wi does not have restaurants opening--not officially. Today our supreme court is hearing oral arguments on the governor's extension of his order from April 24 to May 26. So we will see.
2. We've had a new spike in cases, partly b/c of an election being required to be held in person (the Supreme Court, then as now, meets virtually to consider these cases), b/c of some protests, and b/c of an outbreak in a packing plant. The overall number hasn't been too bad--voters practiced social distancing, and protest numbers were very small, generally speaking, among those who actually violated social distancing orders. Our governor's order is broadly supported and it's a small group of angry, noisy people who are making a fuss.
The bigger issue here--as in many places--is simple noncompliance. I'm seeing a lot more masks in stores, but the number of people out and about skyrocketed with the good weather this past weekend. Cooler and wet today, so I suspect folks won't be out as much. It's a crapshoot, if you are at risk and *must* go out.
Wearing a mask is an act of compassion. Let's not forget that.6 -
Wearing a mask is the law in IL.3
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We are also required to wear masks in Italy and almost everyone is complying. Some older people (usually men) either won't wear one or wear it exposing their nose--useless. They say "I can't breathe". I just think "What do you think will happen if you wind up on a respirator?" Then you'll see what difficulty breathing really is. It's a small sacrifice to make until a vaccine is produced.8
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A thing I'm finding interesting - and wondering who specifically** is behind - are the items circulating on social media with articles/photos that turn out to be false in some way. As a non-party centrist politically, it interests me that these are on both sides of the "great divide": Some supporting and circulated by the "gimme freedom" anti-restriction protestors, some supporting and circulated by the "stay at home, no matter what" continue-restrictions side. Some of them are quite localized and specific.
An example (one of many): A recent photo of a restaurant patio in (name of specific familiar-to-me small town deleted), showing what was purported to be people eating their carryout-only meals without masks on that patio. Not a packed patio, but not at no-mask distance either. Completely plausible . . . until people who actually live in (small town deleted) say "that restaurant has no furniture on their patio yet this year". So, who, and why?
** I know, trolls or troll farms, of one sort or another - but it would be interesting to know the specific source of each item. Grassroots manipulation? Astroturf manipulation? Near source? Distant source?9 -
Thank you to everyone who answered my questions about mask wearing in restaraunts and in general and about rationale for re opening in various areas of US.
It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
South Australia are relaxing restrictions much more gradually
although admittedly they werent as tight in the first place as many other places, including other states of Australia - not due to any political difference between premiers (the equivalent of your state governors, I think) but due to our case load being much less.
Somebody mentioned your federal directive for relaxing restrictions being 14 days of reducing cases - yet restrictions being relaxed despite no states reaching that yet.
Time will tell if that proves safe or not (sadly I suspect not)
In comparison we have had reducing cases for quite a few weeks and that from much lower case levels in first place (state total of active cases now only 5) and no new cases for 13 days - yet restrictions relaxed slightly only yesterday.
I get somebody's point about testing levels - but our low case numbers are certainly not a result of low testing - the opposite- testing has been at increased numbers and anyone with so much as a tiny sniffle can be tested
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I'm curious as to what winter will bring in the southern hemisphere...we are certainly expecting another surge come our cold and flu season, but our health care system should be more prepared and capable by then...hopefully.
yes that is probably part of the reason for caution here - however we are almost into winter now and so far our influenza numbers are way down on this time last year (which was a very bad year for influenza numbers) - no doubt a result of MUCH less social interaction, especially by flu vulnerable people.
People have been encouraged to have flu vaccinations and uptake has been higher than usual.
Here in SA coronavirus is almost extinct now - if we keep our borders closed (expect for essential travellers/returnees who have to isolate for 14 days) then I think that will remain so for the winter season.
All of Australia is seeing reducing coronavirus numbers - but eastern states are still having mini spikes and do have active community transmission.5 -
paperpudding wrote: »It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
(1) It varies a bunch by state (we aren't opening here in IL).
(2) You (AU) got more notice before having lots of cases from what I can see vs the US or Europe, so there's more pressure to open up too early here.
(3) Some states/counties in the US don't have lots of cases (and they are the ones, unlike mine, that the president likes) -- this is a problem, as he blames the ones with lots of cases as if it were our fault although that's ridiculous, but it's part of not taking responsibility and calling anyone concerned "sheeple" as some in the country seem to be doing.11 -
paperpudding wrote: »Thank you to everyone who answered my questions about mask wearing in restaraunts and in general and about rationale for re opening in various areas of US.
It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
South Australia are relaxing restrictions much more gradually
although admittedly they werent as tight in the first place as many other places, including other states of Australia - not due to any political difference between premiers (the equivalent of your state governors, I think) but due to our case load being much less.
Somebody mentioned your federal directive for relaxing restrictions being 14 days of reducing cases - yet restrictions being relaxed despite no states reaching that yet.
Time will tell if that proves safe or not (sadly I suspect not)
In comparison we have had reducing cases for quite a few weeks and that from much lower case levels in first place (state total of active cases now only 5) and no new cases for 13 days - yet restrictions relaxed slightly only yesterday.
I get somebody's point about testing levels - but our low case numbers are certainly not a result of low testing - the opposite- testing has been at increased numbers and anyone with so much as a tiny sniffle can be tested
I don't want to oversell this (i.e., not trying to say "we're smarter than you think", because I don't think that
), but I think the situation may be somewhat nuanced, even in places that are trying to do the right thing.
States - some of 'em - are pretty big, and quite diverse. Some of those "opening up" are not - IMU - necessarily doing all the same things statewide. Some things are regionalized in one way or another, either by the state, or by allowing mayors (or other smaller-granularity officials) some power to regulate what happens. In some cases, there are criteria-based, conditional orders (like businesses in category X may reopen if they put in place measures A, B, C . . . ).
Things are pretty much statewide orders here still in Michigan, but part of the source of fractiousness here is that we have a huge outbreak in Detroit (though not exclusively there), and there are other parts of the state literally many hours' drive away that have no confirmed cases at all. (Yes, testing has a role in this, but the incidence rates let alone raw numbers are very different. In some places, contact tracing and firm quarantine can probably still work.)
If you look at the state as a whole, there are 43,950 cases and 4,135 deaths. Wayne county (Detroit metro area) has 17,391 cases and 1,945 deaths. Oakland county (also Detroit metro area) has 7,522 cases and 772 deaths. That's over half the known incidence , in two counties. Some of the other counties in that region, and some others within a couple hours away also have a few hundred or more cases, and proportional deaths.
There are 83 counties in the state. Four have zero confirmed cases. Around 20 have single digits of cases, and most of those have zero deaths. They're mainly up in the upper peninsula, Northwest part of the state, mostly rural or quite small towns, remote, and 8-9 hours drive from Detroit (which is in the Southeast corner, more or less). I'm sure some of this had to do with testing, but some of these counties are truly that remote and that thinly populated.
I'm not saying fractiousness from distant counties is necessarily justified, I'm not saying they should just go on about their business as if nothing is happening, but I don't think it's irrational to think that at some point, the rules for Keewenaw County or Iron County might rationally be different from the rules in Wayne or Oakland counties. So, reports that states are opening up or relaxing restrictions . . . may look different on the ground than it sounds, as the situation evolves.9 -
paperpudding wrote: »Thank you to everyone who answered my questions about mask wearing in restaraunts and in general and about rationale for re opening in various areas of US.
It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
South Australia are relaxing restrictions much more gradually
although admittedly they werent as tight in the first place as many other places, including other states of Australia - not due to any political difference between premiers (the equivalent of your state governors, I think) but due to our case load being much less.
Somebody mentioned your federal directive for relaxing restrictions being 14 days of reducing cases - yet restrictions being relaxed despite no states reaching that yet.
Time will tell if that proves safe or not (sadly I suspect not)
In comparison we have had reducing cases for quite a few weeks and that from much lower case levels in first place (state total of active cases now only 5) and no new cases for 13 days - yet restrictions relaxed slightly only yesterday.
I get somebody's point about testing levels - but our low case numbers are certainly not a result of low testing - the opposite- testing has been at increased numbers and anyone with so much as a tiny sniffle can be tested
I don't want to oversell this (i.e., not trying to say "we're smarter than you think", because I don't think that ), but I think the situation may be somewhat nuanced, even in places that are trying to do the right thing.
States - some of 'em - are pretty big, and quite diverse. Some of those "opening up" are not - IMU - necessarily doing all the same things statewide. Some things are regionalized in one way or another, either by the state, or by allowing mayors (or other smaller-granularity officials) some power to regulate what happens. In some cases, there are criteria-based, conditional orders (like businesses in category X may reopen if they put in place measures A, B, C . . . ).
Things are pretty much statewide orders here still in Michigan, but part of the source of fractiousness here is that we have a huge outbreak in Detroit (though not exclusively there), and there are other parts of the state literally many hours' drive away that have no confirmed cases at all. (Yes, testing has a role in this, but the incidence rates let alone raw numbers are very different. In some places, contact tracing and firm quarantine can probably still work.)
If you look at the state as a whole, there are 43,950 cases and 4,135 deaths. Wayne county (Detroit metro area) has 17,391 cases and 1,945 deaths. Oakland county (also Detroit metro area) has 7,522 cases and 772 deaths. That's over half the known incidence , in two counties. Some of the other counties in that region, and some others within a couple hours away also have a few hundred or more cases, and proportional deaths.
There are 83 counties in the state. Four have zero confirmed cases. Around 20 have single digits of cases, and most of those have zero deaths. They're mainly up in the upper peninsula, Northwest part of the state, mostly rural or quite small towns, remote, and 8-9 hours drive from Detroit (which is in the Southeast corner, more or less). I'm sure some of this had to do with testing, but some of these counties are truly that remote and that thinly populated.
I'm not saying fractiousness from distant counties is necessarily justified, I'm not saying they should just go on about their business as if nothing is happening, but I don't think it's irrational to think that at some point, the rules for Keewenaw County or Iron County might rationally be different from the rules in Wayne or Oakland counties. So, reports that states are opening up or relaxing restrictions . . . may look different on the ground than it sounds, as the situation evolves.
I am seeing this in my area as well. I’m in a Southern medium size metro area (suburb), and my county is either #1 in the state or #2 (we’re up and down with one of the counties around one of the states other big cities) for Covid cases. But my whole state has fewer than the small (geographically) county I grew up in in NE NJ.
2 hrs away in a neighboring state, we have relatives chafing at any restrictions bc their very rural area has few cases and is in a very different situation to our urban/suburban area. They have about as many in their whole (“big”) town as in one of our high schools.
And we are in a far different situation than my relatives where I grew up in NE NJ. I can go walking and see few people and easily move 10-20’ away from them, and yesterday at Target I was in the same aisle as another person maybe once. Meanwhile a relative in NJ spent 2 full hours waiting in line IN THE STORE to pay for groceries during senior hours, bc there are just so so many more people and not enough stores to keep them as spread out as we can be here. So my town is opening slowly, but other areas of the state are already more open, and my relatives’ neighboring state is pretty much open already, but NJ is clearly not.2 -
gradchica27 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Thank you to everyone who answered my questions about mask wearing in restaraunts and in general and about rationale for re opening in various areas of US.
It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
South Australia are relaxing restrictions much more gradually
although admittedly they werent as tight in the first place as many other places, including other states of Australia - not due to any political difference between premiers (the equivalent of your state governors, I think) but due to our case load being much less.
Somebody mentioned your federal directive for relaxing restrictions being 14 days of reducing cases - yet restrictions being relaxed despite no states reaching that yet.
Time will tell if that proves safe or not (sadly I suspect not)
In comparison we have had reducing cases for quite a few weeks and that from much lower case levels in first place (state total of active cases now only 5) and no new cases for 13 days - yet restrictions relaxed slightly only yesterday.
I get somebody's point about testing levels - but our low case numbers are certainly not a result of low testing - the opposite- testing has been at increased numbers and anyone with so much as a tiny sniffle can be tested
I don't want to oversell this (i.e., not trying to say "we're smarter than you think", because I don't think that ), but I think the situation may be somewhat nuanced, even in places that are trying to do the right thing.
States - some of 'em - are pretty big, and quite diverse. Some of those "opening up" are not - IMU - necessarily doing all the same things statewide. Some things are regionalized in one way or another, either by the state, or by allowing mayors (or other smaller-granularity officials) some power to regulate what happens. In some cases, there are criteria-based, conditional orders (like businesses in category X may reopen if they put in place measures A, B, C . . . ).
Things are pretty much statewide orders here still in Michigan, but part of the source of fractiousness here is that we have a huge outbreak in Detroit (though not exclusively there), and there are other parts of the state literally many hours' drive away that have no confirmed cases at all. (Yes, testing has a role in this, but the incidence rates let alone raw numbers are very different. In some places, contact tracing and firm quarantine can probably still work.)
If you look at the state as a whole, there are 43,950 cases and 4,135 deaths. Wayne county (Detroit metro area) has 17,391 cases and 1,945 deaths. Oakland county (also Detroit metro area) has 7,522 cases and 772 deaths. That's over half the known incidence , in two counties. Some of the other counties in that region, and some others within a couple hours away also have a few hundred or more cases, and proportional deaths.
There are 83 counties in the state. Four have zero confirmed cases. Around 20 have single digits of cases, and most of those have zero deaths. They're mainly up in the upper peninsula, Northwest part of the state, mostly rural or quite small towns, remote, and 8-9 hours drive from Detroit (which is in the Southeast corner, more or less). I'm sure some of this had to do with testing, but some of these counties are truly that remote and that thinly populated.
I'm not saying fractiousness from distant counties is necessarily justified, I'm not saying they should just go on about their business as if nothing is happening, but I don't think it's irrational to think that at some point, the rules for Keewenaw County or Iron County might rationally be different from the rules in Wayne or Oakland counties. So, reports that states are opening up or relaxing restrictions . . . may look different on the ground than it sounds, as the situation evolves.
I am seeing this in my area as well. I’m in a Southern medium size metro area (suburb), and my county is either #1 in the state or #2 (we’re up and down with one of the counties around one of the states other big cities) for Covid cases. But my whole state has fewer than the small (geographically) county I grew up in in NE NJ.
2 hrs away in a neighboring state, we have relatives chafing at any restrictions bc their very rural area has few cases and is in a very different situation to our urban/suburban area. They have about as many in their whole (“big”) town as in one of our high schools.
And we are in a far different situation than my relatives where I grew up in NE NJ. I can go walking and see few people and easily move 10-20’ away from them, and yesterday at Target I was in the same aisle as another person maybe once. Meanwhile a relative in NJ spent 2 full hours waiting in line IN THE STORE to pay for groceries during senior hours, bc there are just so so many more people and not enough stores to keep them as spread out as we can be here. So my town is opening slowly, but other areas of the state are already more open, and my relatives’ neighboring state is pretty much open already, but NJ is clearly not.
As someone who lives in your state, on the same side of the state, and in a rural area that is very different culturally than your area; I believe things are very different here. There seems to be a whole lot of hoarding, but yet very little concern about actually getting sick. Maybe 5% of people I see in stores are wearing face coverings and nobody is social distancing (I admit I struggle with it too). But we also have fewer cases (so far) than your area.
Why I struggle with social distancing is because it just seems impossible to go to stores or anywhere else without having to get within 6 feet. For example, was at Dollar General last weekend. I noticed 2 women in the aisle where I needed to go and they were just chatting. I wandered around back and forth in nearby aisles for several minutes and they didn't leave. So finally, rather than be stuck there all day or have to leave and come back later, I finally just went by them and grabbed what I needed. I was wearing a mask, neither of them were.8 -
I have been asking people to move (I've been trying to be polite, but c'mon) in the stores when they are blocking aisles or standing in the middle. No one has gotten rude about it. But I'm in nicey-nicey Washington.
8 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »gradchica27 wrote: »paperpudding wrote: »Thank you to everyone who answered my questions about mask wearing in restaraunts and in general and about rationale for re opening in various areas of US.
It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
South Australia are relaxing restrictions much more gradually
although admittedly they werent as tight in the first place as many other places, including other states of Australia - not due to any political difference between premiers (the equivalent of your state governors, I think) but due to our case load being much less.
Somebody mentioned your federal directive for relaxing restrictions being 14 days of reducing cases - yet restrictions being relaxed despite no states reaching that yet.
Time will tell if that proves safe or not (sadly I suspect not)
In comparison we have had reducing cases for quite a few weeks and that from much lower case levels in first place (state total of active cases now only 5) and no new cases for 13 days - yet restrictions relaxed slightly only yesterday.
I get somebody's point about testing levels - but our low case numbers are certainly not a result of low testing - the opposite- testing has been at increased numbers and anyone with so much as a tiny sniffle can be tested
I don't want to oversell this (i.e., not trying to say "we're smarter than you think", because I don't think that ), but I think the situation may be somewhat nuanced, even in places that are trying to do the right thing.
States - some of 'em - are pretty big, and quite diverse. Some of those "opening up" are not - IMU - necessarily doing all the same things statewide. Some things are regionalized in one way or another, either by the state, or by allowing mayors (or other smaller-granularity officials) some power to regulate what happens. In some cases, there are criteria-based, conditional orders (like businesses in category X may reopen if they put in place measures A, B, C . . . ).
Things are pretty much statewide orders here still in Michigan, but part of the source of fractiousness here is that we have a huge outbreak in Detroit (though not exclusively there), and there are other parts of the state literally many hours' drive away that have no confirmed cases at all. (Yes, testing has a role in this, but the incidence rates let alone raw numbers are very different. In some places, contact tracing and firm quarantine can probably still work.)
If you look at the state as a whole, there are 43,950 cases and 4,135 deaths. Wayne county (Detroit metro area) has 17,391 cases and 1,945 deaths. Oakland county (also Detroit metro area) has 7,522 cases and 772 deaths. That's over half the known incidence , in two counties. Some of the other counties in that region, and some others within a couple hours away also have a few hundred or more cases, and proportional deaths.
There are 83 counties in the state. Four have zero confirmed cases. Around 20 have single digits of cases, and most of those have zero deaths. They're mainly up in the upper peninsula, Northwest part of the state, mostly rural or quite small towns, remote, and 8-9 hours drive from Detroit (which is in the Southeast corner, more or less). I'm sure some of this had to do with testing, but some of these counties are truly that remote and that thinly populated.
I'm not saying fractiousness from distant counties is necessarily justified, I'm not saying they should just go on about their business as if nothing is happening, but I don't think it's irrational to think that at some point, the rules for Keewenaw County or Iron County might rationally be different from the rules in Wayne or Oakland counties. So, reports that states are opening up or relaxing restrictions . . . may look different on the ground than it sounds, as the situation evolves.
I am seeing this in my area as well. I’m in a Southern medium size metro area (suburb), and my county is either #1 in the state or #2 (we’re up and down with one of the counties around one of the states other big cities) for Covid cases. But my whole state has fewer than the small (geographically) county I grew up in in NE NJ.
2 hrs away in a neighboring state, we have relatives chafing at any restrictions bc their very rural area has few cases and is in a very different situation to our urban/suburban area. They have about as many in their whole (“big”) town as in one of our high schools.
And we are in a far different situation than my relatives where I grew up in NE NJ. I can go walking and see few people and easily move 10-20’ away from them, and yesterday at Target I was in the same aisle as another person maybe once. Meanwhile a relative in NJ spent 2 full hours waiting in line IN THE STORE to pay for groceries during senior hours, bc there are just so so many more people and not enough stores to keep them as spread out as we can be here. So my town is opening slowly, but other areas of the state are already more open, and my relatives’ neighboring state is pretty much open already, but NJ is clearly not.
As someone who lives in your state, on the same side of the state, and in a rural area that is very different culturally than your area; I believe things are very different here. There seems to be a whole lot of hoarding, but yet very little concern about actually getting sick. Maybe 5% of people I see in stores are wearing face coverings and nobody is social distancing (I admit I struggle with it too). But we also have fewer cases (so far) than your area.
Why I struggle with social distancing is because it just seems impossible to go to stores or anywhere else without having to get within 6 feet. For example, was at Dollar General last weekend. I noticed 2 women in the aisle where I needed to go and they were just chatting. I wandered around back and forth in nearby aisles for several minutes and they didn't leave. So finally, rather than be stuck there all day or have to leave and come back later, I finally just went by them and grabbed what I needed. I was wearing a mask, neither of them were.
It’s hard to get a read on my area. We have a lot who want to open up right now and who question the benefit of wearing masks in public/see it as an assault on their freedom, but we have another large contingent who are not convinced we’ve quarantined long enough and who are publicly shaming anyone seen breaking the social distancing rules (someone called code enforcement on a taco truck planning to come to a local neighborhood bc people might show up and eat there). So I really can’t tell if people are still scared or are indifferent and champing at the bit to get back to normal.
I can definitely see the issue w social distancing, why it seems impossible/unworkable—I think I happened to be at Target at a freakishly off hour (about 2 hrs bf closing on a night that was threatening major storms), so I might be singing a different tune if I had gone to Kroger at 10 am. I’ve been sending my husband to Costco since he can go to the front of the line as a healthcare worker (plus...4 kids. I’m alone all day and am not taking them near a store).
There was a small checkout line when I arrived, so I just walked around in an empty area to kill time until things died down further. I’ll estimate 2/3 of people were wearing masks (me included). I appreciated not feeling like a total weirdo with my mask.
The hoarding is real, though. No TP or paper towels again (absolutely zero) and only a few weirdly flavored or unusual meat items available at Target. Friends with 5 kids (3 girls!!) have been buying single rolls at Trader Joe’s. When the Walmart TP I ordered 5 weeks ago comes in this week I’ll bring some to them.3 -
paperpudding wrote: »It seems to me that you (US as a whole) are opening up far more quickly in comparison to case load than we are here.
(1) It varies a bunch by state (we aren't opening here in IL).
(2) You (AU) got more notice before having lots of cases from what I can see vs the US or Europe, so there's more pressure to open up too early here.
(3) Some states/counties in the US don't have lots of cases (and they are the ones, unlike mine, that the president likes) -- this is a problem, as he blames the ones with lots of cases as if it were our fault although that's ridiculous, but it's part of not taking responsibility and calling anyone concerned "sheeple" as some in the country seem to be doing.
Yes it varies by state here too - although not within a state. Except in an area of a specific cluster where short term orders will apply - schools in that area only closed, for example.
Yes it did help that it came here later.
Also helped that leaders of the country took it seriously and implemented orders early. Nobody thought it was a hoax by their political opponents.
Has been bipartisan support here, not political division, that has helped too.
And I think more compliance from majority of population - no protests, or organised rebellious behaviour
7 -
corinasue1143 wrote: »In Oklahoma, over 1/2 the cases and over 1/2 the deaths are in 3 cities. If you count the metro area, it is closer to 3/4, but harder to count. The rest of the cases are spread out over a large area, and mostly in clusters, like nursing homes. In one county, the count went from 9 one day to 61 2 days later when they checked all residents and employees of one nursing home.
When outsiders look at our numbers, they may think they’re going up, but when we look at them, we also look at the number of tests given. 10 positive with 10 tests given is a worse number than 20 positive with 400 tests given.
Not necessarily. It also matters who is being tested. If 10 of 10 is when we were only testing people displaying classic symptoms who are sick enough to be hospitalized, but 20 of 400 is random testing of the nonhospitalized, largely asympomatic population, I'd say all we've done is finally establish a baseline to compare next week's sample to, and then we can decide whether things are getting better or not.8 -
paperpudding wrote: »Genuine questions.
How do people eat/drink in a restaruant if they have to wear masks??
Mask wearing hasnt been a big thing in Australia - people can choose to wear them if they want of course and a few do - but most people are not and we are not being encouraged, let alone mandated, to do so.
Question 2 - are the easing of restrictions in US being done as a result of numbers dropping enough to be considered safe to do so? - or are they just being eased because authorities think they have been there for long enough./ people wont adhere anyway/ , the economy needs them to reduce??
yes i know US is a big place and different locations might be doing things differently - but answer for your specific location or area as a whole.
Restrictions are being gradually eased here in South Australia - and that is in response to massive drop in COVID numbers
Our restrictions weren't as tight in first place as many other places - but in comparison to what still seems high numbers in US, we are only now re opening outdoor playgrounds, - gyms/restaraunts are still closed (open for takeaway only) and gatherings are still restricted to 10 people.
This with a state of 5 remaining active cases in whole state (all in home or hospital quarantine, of course) and zero new cases for nearly 2 weeks.
.
State borders are still closed except for essential travellers/returnees who have to self isolate for 14 days.
In superrvised hotel accomodation, in case of overseas returnees.
I think it is very safe for us to move forward, although we are still doing it very gradually.
My state has no timeline yet for reopening, because we don't have an established downward trend yet. So we can't even say if things continue on this trajectory, we could reopen in two weeks. Oddly, we're also one of the few states that hasn't definitively called off school for the rest of the year, even though in the best case scenario (start the downward trend tomorrow), we'd have a max of three weeks and a half weeks of in-school learning.
As someone else said, customers wouldn't wear masks in reopened dine-in restaurants, just employees. Generally (obviously rules vary from place to place) restaurants would be required to reduce seating to maintain at least six feet between tables, plexiglass barriers are going up between tables, reusable menus are being replaced with paper menus or apps for customers to order on their phones, condiments will be single-serve, possibly tableware will be disposable ... *ETA: also have seen restrictions on the number of people in a party (varying in different jurisdictions from four to 10) and prohibitions on dining out with people who aren't from the same household.
I've read and seen interviews with a number of restauranteurs in different cities saying they're going to continue to rely largely or entirely on carryout and delivery. Some of the more innovative ones in my area are offering groceries (fresh produce, dairy, eggs, baking ingredients, every meat and poultry), nonedible household staples (TP!), meal kits, etc., as well as their regular menus (or reduced menus, either to focus on dishes that suffer least from delays in serving or to reduce kitchen staff -- I'm thinking part of that may be that in a normal dine-in restaurant kitchen, people are working cheek-by-jowl at a variety of stations, and the only way to maintain social distance in the kitchen is to eliminate certain stations, and hence eliminate any dishes that require that cooking technique).
3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Re: neighborhood parties to celebrate the lifting of restrictions. I feel like people’s brains have broken. Not one number suggests the situation now is less dangerous than when lockdown started. Every single number suggests there is far more community transmission and the risk of getting covid locally is higher by a factor of ten. On Saturday Tennessee had its highest day of new cases, almost 1200. But since the powers that be are easing restrictions, people look at that and think, “Yay, it’s over, it’s safe now!”
Guys. It’s not safe. It’s just lawmakers are starting to panic about riots if people aren’t allowed to earn enough money to feed themselves and pay rent. So they are trying to allow everyone to do those things while trying to mitigate the risks as much as possible. That doesn’t work unless everyone tries to mitigate the risk.
There was an article about restaurants reopening on Friday. They are supposed to take temperatures and ask questions about symptoms before allowing customers in, and the staff are supposed to wear masks. I wrote a post at the time saying this would not happen, and lo and behold, the reporters say it isn’t happening. One restaurant in Atoka did make an attempt to check temperatures until a customer pointed out the thermometer they were using was intended for finding studs in walls and not accurate on people. The others just shrugged and said, yeah, that would make our customers uncomfortable, not doing it. Waiters are not even wearing masks. There is not and was never planned to be enforcement - the governor has said he intends people to “take the Tennessee pledge” to do the right thing. But the thing is, when asking people to do something novel and weird, you have to require them to do it. That way everyone does it and no one feels weird. And they can point at the law and say, “Yeah, sorry, I think it’s stupid too but we can’t be open if we don’t do it.” Tell everyone it’s optional and no one will do it!
I read that the Ohio governor mandated masks worn in all stores, and after a couple of days of store employees being treated poorly for trying to enforce it the governor took it back. People are seriously yelling about their civil rights being violated by mask requirements of all things smh. What's sad is many of these people won't get sick themselves, they'll pass it on to more vulnerable people and probably never even know they did.
Something similar happened in Stillwater, OK (home of Oklahoma State University).
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-city-ends-face-mask-rule-shoppers-after-store-employees-n1198736
And a store security guard was shot and killed in Michigan for trying to enforce a face-mask requirement.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/police-probe-killing-store-security-guard-virus-mask-70492980
Oh wow. People have gone crazy. My nephew lives in Dallas Texas and said there was a party at the beach, around 20 young people, no masks or anything safe, an officer came and said I'm going to have to cite you if you don't all leave. He got thrown into the lake. I tell ya, I wouldn't want to be in any kind of enforcement or healthcare career right now.
On the upside, I went with my sister to the VA ER yesterday and they were so very good about everything. Lots of pre- questions before you can even enter the parking lot. Then more as you enter the building and they direct you to very isolated places, get you right into an individual room, etc., etc. They also said there were currently no Covid cases within the hospital and amazingly every single medical person(and there were LOTS)we came into contact with was very kind, and helpful, and completely efficient. I expected to see overly-frazzled, irritated, short-on-staff type of environment. They have clearly done all they can to keep people distanced and isolated. But thankfully we live in a less populated state whose biggest city population doesn't top 100K so it's a whole different look than NY or CA, etc.
I read a news story on that. They said someone had been arrested and charged with attempted assault on an officer (not sure why it's just attempted) and attempted (not sure if that was the word -- risking?) destruction of public property (the officer's radio, which I guess was at risk from the water.4
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