Coronavirus prep
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Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
The world of creatures has a value beyond those whom you might or might not personally miss.21 -
It’s a, What came first, the chicken or the egg?, theory. Bats eat mosquitoes. They both carry diseases to humans, and other species. It is extremely arrogant to think the human species deserves existence over other species. It’s natural order and evolution. There’s far and away the vast majority of population concentrated between Asia and Africa. Should there be responsibility for advising other countries of outbreaks? Of course. But leadership needs to be honest with people from the start and not tell us “it’s no big deal”.
It wasn’t something intentional and is no one’s fault. We need to pull together with worldwide effort and cooperation to get through this with the least amount of fatalities.9 -
It looks like Major League Baseball might be close to done. The Marlins are still down 18 or 19 players who tested positive and now the St Louis Cardinals have a big outbreak.
So much of the talk to get sports back playing was that young healthy multi millionaires wouldn't be taking on that much risk. But several of these positive tests are "staff" so like coaches, locker room attendants. These people could be older, might not be in athletic shape, and most aren't making millions. And there is a 27 yr old Red Sox pitcher who is out for at least this season with heart inflammation post-covid , which they "assume" will clear up.
Luckily neither the NBA or the NHL has had any positive cases of a person after they are in the bubble yet. The whole bubble thing might actually work for these one or two month tournaments. I doubt you could actually expect all those people to stay put through months of an entire season though.6 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
I personally like bats and don't care for wolves. Which is exactly why the value of a species cannot be determined by anyone's individual, personal like or dislike of them.14 -
It's not bragging if it's true. I grew up with the grizzly bear, brown and black bear, bison, bats, badgers, moose, elk, deer, antelope. I'm a FFA and 4H country girl and my family still raises livestock. Grizzlies and humans are the top of the food chain out here. Our mileage will always vary because we travel in different packs and move with different herds.
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It looks like Major League Baseball might be close to done. The Marlins are still down 18 or 19 players who tested positive and now the St Louis Cardinals have a big outbreak.
So much of the talk to get sports back playing was that young healthy multi millionaires wouldn't be taking on that much risk. But several of these positive tests are "staff" so like coaches, locker room attendants. These people could be older, might not be in athletic shape, and most aren't making millions. And there is a 27 yr old Red Sox pitcher who is out for at least this season with heart inflammation post-covid , which they "assume" will clear up.
Luckily neither the NBA or the NHL has had any positive cases of a person after they are in the bubble yet. The whole bubble thing might actually work for these one or two month tournaments. I doubt you could actually expect all those people to stay put through months of an entire season though.
I think that all sports leagues are keeping a very close eye on MLB to see what happens when there's no "bubble".
The NFL will be next up in this experiment.
Both the NBA and NHL are talking about starting next season sometime in December...in their home arenas, probably no fans at least at the start.
But all those plans could change if baseball shuts down.3 -
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/04/livonia-nuns-convent-coronavirus-catholic-felician-sisters/5572473002/
Thirteen have lost their lives. 8 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
I admit that I have a small amount of both kangaroo and python meat that I am saving for a special occasion.2 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
So, in the beginning of Covid-19 a lot of info came into the news about it originating from eating bats. Then many news articles pooh-poohed that idea. With all the unknowns about this virus I just assumed nobody really know how it all started or what truths to listen to. Are you telling me(maybe I missed it somewhere?) that it did indeed originate from wet markets?
Doesn't every country have intelligent doctors telling people not to eat this or that? It's probably a very bad idea? They pull things from being sold when something is known to be uhhh....deadly?
I know I'm very naive but sometimes I gotta wonder how/why the world works the way it does.4 -
Redordeadhead wrote: »Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
I personally like bats and don't care for wolves. Which is exactly why the value of a species cannot be determined by anyone's individual, personal like or dislike of them.
I've been meaning to put up a "house" for bats. Would love to have those mosquito-eaters around!13 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
So, in the beginning of Covid-19 a lot of info came into the news about it originating from eating bats. Then many news articles pooh-poohed that idea. With all the unknowns about this virus I just assumed nobody really know how it all started or what truths to listen to. Are you telling me(maybe I missed it somewhere?) that it did indeed originate from wet markets?
Doesn't every country have intelligent doctors telling people not to eat this or that? It's probably a very bad idea? They pull things from being sold when something is known to be uhhh....deadly?
I know I'm very naive but sometimes I gotta wonder how/why the world works the way it does.
I'm not sure whether it originated from eating bats or not. It's a form of coronavirus, which is known to be zoonotic, and it is believed to have originated in Wuhan where there are wet markets. I'm not sure if anything more substantial than that exists. I've not visited any such wet markets, but the video footage I've seen is quite disgusting. If they have health inspectors, they must be getting paid to stay away because a legitimate health inspector would be shutting that place down just based on how poorly the food is stored and handled.6 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
So, in the beginning of Covid-19 a lot of info came into the news about it originating from eating bats. Then many news articles pooh-poohed that idea. With all the unknowns about this virus I just assumed nobody really know how it all started or what truths to listen to. Are you telling me(maybe I missed it somewhere?) that it did indeed originate from wet markets?
Doesn't every country have intelligent doctors telling people not to eat this or that? It's probably a very bad idea? They pull things from being sold when something is known to be uhhh....deadly?
I know I'm very naive but sometimes I gotta wonder how/why the world works the way it does.
I’ve read a bunch of different theories but apparently where it stands now is that the virus is similar to one found in bats and one found in pangolins, with the theory being that two viruses swapped genes at some point. The origin of the virus has become a political thing so it’s difficult to get accurate information.
I don’t know about eating bats but I am completely opposed to eating pangolins since they are a) endangered b) one of the most trafficked animals and c) adorable. The practice of trafficking endangered wild animals for traditional “medicine” that doesn’t actually do anything makes me angry.
Megachiroptera are also adorable. Big bats are lovely and charming.
One reason not to murder animals just because you don’t personally care for them is that we can learn from them. At this moment scientists are studying why bats are able to carry coronaviruses without getting sick themselves. This avenue of study may someday lead to new treatments or drugs not just for Covid 19 but also for coronaviruses that humans didn’t get from bats.18 -
There was NIH funded "gain-of-function" research on bat coronavirus as the Wuhan lab. I would not reject the idea that pangolin and bat coronaviruses may have been mixed, but I would suspect knowing the research was going on that it was not by nature.
I haven't seen any proof (not that it would be released), but it is a well reported fact that the exact type of research was going on. It was controversial research because of the exact outcome we have going on right now.
I see no need to vilify animals.5 -
Diatonic12 wrote: »Oooo, no. If you start taking out the bats where does it end. Humans have managed to wipe out many of the species at an alarming rate. Back in the day, they took out the wolf, the grizzly bear and black bear and buffalo/bison . It's been a slow process to bring them back.
Find your balance. It's all about balance. Humans and wild critters. Everyone of them has a purpose and value. Blue whale, elephant, gorilla, rhino and bees. Panda, sea turtle....the list goes on forever.
All of these beautiful animals are a great loss to our planet, undoubtedly.
I would not miss rats, bats, mosquitoes or rattlesnakes, and possibly water moccasins myself. Nor would I miss Ebola or any of the Sars viruses.
I like bobcats, lynx and wolves. But I feel sad when little goat kids and lambs get maimed by them. They cry so hard and it sounds almost human. I dn't like it when a chicken coop gets attacked by badgers either. So sad.
That is really silly.
Ecological systems don't depend on whether we think little cute animals gettting killed by bigger predators is sad.
You would miss a balanced nature - and randomly removing one species because we don't like it would not end well.
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Bats in Africa and China are significantly large compared to the puny N. American species.
Not an ingredient I would consider for soup! or a pet.
Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
Get rid of bats and you'll have more mosquitos.10 -
paperpudding wrote: »Myself, I'm not going to complain if the gov starts a campaign to illiminate mosquitoes, rattlesnakes and bats.
Humans need to be safe first. I believe nature will adapt and survive without those three killers.
I would.
ecological systems depend on creatures we might not like too - like bats, rattlesnakes, mosquitoes.
Humans need to respect that.
and how do you expect the government would be able to do this anyway??
most every other man made interference with nature has ended badly - I dont think this one would end well either
Well, some countries are:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/spain-to-cull-nearly-100000-mink-in-coronavirus-outbreak
Both Spain and the Netherlands are killing minks.
Mink are not bats, mosquitos, rattlesnakes.
Culling farmed mink is not going to play havoc with ecosystem the way that attempting to exterminate an entire species in the wild wood.
You are moving the goal posts.9 -
Yes, I did read that information. Did you know that there are rat farms in Vietnam? That the demands of the cuisine in China and elsewhere mean that there are bat and rat farms in asia? What do you think about the fact that there are many Sars type viruses that live in bats and they are sold in open markets in Asia every day?
I'm not here to demand anything or condemn anyone, just would like to know if your philosophy for animal species extends to the extreme circumstances of asia and its effect on the coming possiblilty of mor Pandemic virus infection?
So, in the beginning of Covid-19 a lot of info came into the news about it originating from eating bats. Then many news articles pooh-poohed that idea. With all the unknowns about this virus I just assumed nobody really know how it all started or what truths to listen to. Are you telling me(maybe I missed it somewhere?) that it did indeed originate from wet markets?
Doesn't every country have intelligent doctors telling people not to eat this or that? It's probably a very bad idea? They pull things from being sold when something is known to be uhhh....deadly?
I know I'm very naive but sometimes I gotta wonder how/why the world works the way it does.
Nothing I have seen ever suggested transmission came from eating bats. Rather transmission came from being in close proximity to live bats (or some other animal that theoretically was an intermediary in the transmission process). I'm assuming people are not eating live bats.1 -
I have changed my thinking on eliminating a species.
I had a cat who killed mice and another one who caught birds. My dog chased a rabbit until it died of fright and chased a deer until it got lost. Probably the most serious predetor and killer so far as making critters extinct is the human, but I don't know for sure if that's true.I read that mosquitoes have killed more people than any other living thing.
I do believe Nature will take care of itself in one way or another.
Thanks for the conversation all.
I apologize if I caused anyone fear or anger.
To the one who called me silly.
Yes, sometimes I am silly for sure. 🤓
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I didn't mean to call you yourself silly.
I meant the argument you put up was silly.
Which it seems you have realised yourself if you have now re thought your wish to exterminate a species.
Always good to see when ones initial thought was in fact not as worthwhile as it first seemed.
Cheers.6 -
ExistingFish wrote: »There was NIH funded "gain-of-function" research on bat coronavirus as the Wuhan lab. I would not reject the idea that pangolin and bat coronaviruses may have been mixed, but I would suspect knowing the research was going on that it was not by nature.
I haven't seen any proof (not that it would be released), but it is a well reported fact that the exact type of research was going on. It was controversial research because of the exact outcome we have going on right now.
I see no need to vilify animals.
But we have an emotional need to deny the "gain-of-function" research activity.1 -
ExistingFish wrote: »There was NIH funded "gain-of-function" research on bat coronavirus as the Wuhan lab. I would not reject the idea that pangolin and bat coronaviruses may have been mixed, but I would suspect knowing the research was going on that it was not by nature.
I haven't seen any proof (not that it would be released), but it is a well reported fact that the exact type of research was going on. It was controversial research because of the exact outcome we have going on right now.
I see no need to vilify animals.
We are always messing with viruses and have been doing that for a long time. And if you look into that, you'll see that they get out of the lab and cause trouble. We're messing with the flu right now to study it and making strains that are more virulent, all to try to improve treatment. But the viruses do get out. We just don't hear about it.
I've read reports that COVID-19 was def NOT engineered.
Well, that's the internet for you. Whatever you want to be true, you'll find someone confirming it. Now that's not to say that though it's a natural virus that the Chinese weren't messing with it, or we weren't involved with that particular messing, but the report I read said that it's equally likely that it jumped species due to the nasty wet markets.
But it doesn't matter whether or not they were messing with the virus or we were; it very well may have gotten out. As I said, we (humanity) are messing around with viruses all the time. Escapes happen. It may or may not have happened this time, but it will happen again. Maybe humans should learn to be more careful when they play with dangerous things. Maybe China needs to get onto those wet markets. China did suppress the news of the virus outbreak. And that caused it to get out of China in a greater number than it would have otherwise. So that's their fault ffs. Still, how did the U.S. handle it once we knew about the outbreak? Once we did know, the fallout from the decisions made, actions taken or not taken, and the resulting consequences are all on the U.S. and no one else.
So there are multiple sources of culpability to be addressed in this debacle.
IMO, currently we are experiencing a massive epidemic of "unable to put aside politics and learn" in this country that is prolonging the mitigation of this virus and the resulting damage. The picture history will be forced to paint isn't going to be flattering.
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GaleHawkins wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »There was NIH funded "gain-of-function" research on bat coronavirus as the Wuhan lab. I would not reject the idea that pangolin and bat coronaviruses may have been mixed, but I would suspect knowing the research was going on that it was not by nature.
I haven't seen any proof (not that it would be released), but it is a well reported fact that the exact type of research was going on. It was controversial research because of the exact outcome we have going on right now.
I see no need to vilify animals.
But we have an emotional need to deny the "gain-of-function" research activity.
My understanding (and the understanding of most scientists that don't give into conspiracy theories) is that the NIH was over there trying to anticipate new viruses before they infect millions. It used to be a normal thing for countries to cooperate on preventing Pandemics. Had it not been for going over to Africa to stop Ebola, it might have been a lot worse for the US. And we pulled the plug on the research meant to protect us all. Sort of like getting rid of the pandemic team at the CDC.
You all are getting really close to spreading outright, really out there conspiracy theories on here. Just my opinion. Please leave the dissemination of misinformation on Facebook. You are going down the rabbit hole of "it's all a Bill Gates, Fauci and Obama caused" conspiracy path on here. I, for one, don't appreciate it. It's just BS.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-admin-wuhan-lab-grant/
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GaleHawkins wrote: »ExistingFish wrote: »There was NIH funded "gain-of-function" research on bat coronavirus as the Wuhan lab. I would not reject the idea that pangolin and bat coronaviruses may have been mixed, but I would suspect knowing the research was going on that it was not by nature.
I haven't seen any proof (not that it would be released), but it is a well reported fact that the exact type of research was going on. It was controversial research because of the exact outcome we have going on right now.
I see no need to vilify animals.
But we have an emotional need to deny the "gain-of-function" research activity.
On the contrary, it's obvious from the current discourse in this country that many have a deeply rooted emotional need to believe stuff like this.9 -
On a brighter note: three people in my building wear masks to descend and ascend the incredibly tight late 19th century wooden staircase that our doors all open off of. At least my husband won't feel so threatened now whenever he goes down to put out the garbage.
Never mind the other 18 people in the building using the stairs, at least its a start.8 -
I have 2 kids going back to college & 1 teaching in a middle school. Here's how their schools are preparing:
1) The larger public institution has ramped up its own in-house lab testing capacity and is testing in 2 tracks:
--people with symptoms (insurance will be billed; university pays if no insurance; either way, no OOP); 3 rapid test machines can do 100/day (15 min) plus "several hundred"/day saliva tests. It contracted with an outside lab for overflow testing.
--5k/week asymptomatic people in 3 tracks: randomly selected, targeted by community (e.g. dorm section), and targeted by profession (e.g. health worker, day care worker, researcher, etc). You can't ask to participate in asymptomatic testing so as not to skew results. It's voluntary & free.
--The university has been doing contact tracing all summer and had increased the staff of experienced tracers.
While they have communicated the testing & contact tracing plan, I'm unsure where a student goes if they're sick & positive and have roommates.
2) The smaller private institution has partnered with Quest. About 2 weeks before school starts, everyone returning to campus was FedEx-ed a self-test to be shipped back to Quest same day as sampled. People testing positive are asked to delay their return to campus (with specific criteria for return). The school owns a nearby hotel, and it cancelled all reservations through year end to use as a quarantining facility. What happens to students testing positive once school starts depends on where they live. Students who live within 300 miles of campus are asked to return home & continue classes online until return criteria met. Students living farther away have to figure out a different plan, which might include the quarantine hotel depending on specific circumstances, case-by-case. They will prioritize isolation for students in dorms over off-campus housing.
The smaller school is asking students not to travel once arriving on campus (unless sick), and both are asking students to decamp at Thanksgiving to finish semester remotely.
3) Other than delaying the start of school, we have no idea what the preparations have been or will be for the public middle school. Our state education authority has been making the job of ISDs much harder by not issuing guidelines (and reimbursement formula) in a fashion timely enough to allow any plan at all AND contradicting/undermining local health authorities on whom ISDs have been relying for guidance in the absence of a coordinated state response. Terrible state leadership. (Also terrible infection rates -- Texas had 6 of the top 10 hotspots in the country this week per https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/23/upshot/five-ways-to-monitor-coronavirus-outbreak-us.html)
Who knows how well the university plans will work. I guess that largely rests in the hands of 18-22 year olds with not fully developed prefrontal cortexes. But at least they have plans. The ISD's appear to be having a much harder time.7 -
I guess that largely rests in the hands of 18-22 year olds with not fully developed prefrontal cortexes.
I will just say when I was that age I thought I was good at assessing risks and making reasonable choices. I would have been very annoyed with anyone who told me that I wasn't.
I'm now 41 and look back on things I did and realize that in many ways, it's like having a whole new brain.
I would not have said things like "partying is worth [x consequence]" or "getting to spend time with this guy is worth [x consequence], but my choices absolutely reflected that on some level I thought it was.
Maybe I was the bad egg, but I don't have a great feeling overall about the abilities of at least a portion of college students to make decisions about socializing versus the risk of COVID-19.
(Obviously, even some older people are failing this test now too!).
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Right there with you on all points, Janejellyroll.2
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Yep. I graduated a year ago, and my heart really aches for the college students. I can really see them, myself included, going ”well, I’m young and healthy, flus come and go, I’m not visiting any hospitals or nursing homes so it’s not that likely I would be the only person risking others, but college/freshman year/senior year/whatever only happens once”.
During the last few months I’ve had to constantly remind myself that I’m not missing out on any once-in-a-lifetime events or celebrations and there will be others. It was still hard. I can imagine how heart-wrenching it is for those who actually miss out on stuff that can only happen once, and I can definitely see them caving in.6 -
My granddaughter graduated high school this year. No graduation. Once in a lifetime. She’s ok. No senior prom. Once in a lifetime. She’s ok. No state softball tournament. It’s hard, but she’ll be ok. No all state softball tournament. Once in a lifetime for her. She’s heartbroken.11
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