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Face mask or no face mask?

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Replies

  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,837 Member
    edited August 2020
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.

    Statement A is said to be required (even though it's really not been stated that way by those making the request).
    Statement A in misstated form is not true.
    Therefore throw the whole thing out, and anything even close to misstated Statement A is false too on anything else said.

    Sadly there are many local news stories about people doing just that and acting on it.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/02/man-who-went-party-warned-people-not-be-an-idiot-like-me-day-before-dying-covid-19/

    Of course that's from a news source - so it gets thrown out too.
  • laurenq1991
    laurenq1991 Posts: 384 Member
    edited August 2020
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    We don't know for sure, but likely, yes, there would have been more deaths without the lockdown (such as it was). Italy is a comparison, where it seems shutting down reduced the cases.

    What is your evidence that shutting down Italy permanently reduced the cases, as opposed to just delaying them? Especially considering it's having an increase in cases right now: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-08-20/italy-sees-845-new-covid-19-cases-highest-since-end-of-lockdown-in-may
    Like I said, I personally think we should have responded more regionally (on a formal basis).

    So then you agree with me, that the only reason to lock down would be to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed, not to permanently stop or eradicate cases?
    No, that's an oversimplification. No one is saying higher deaths is always about compliance. It seems to me obvious, in the US and Europe, that it has a lot more to do with other things too, like testing and tracing, population density, and how early the virus hit your area (i.e., extent to which you are an international hub with lots of travel). Also, things like reliance on public transit and extent of multi-generational families. I could likely come up with a whole lot more, but those seem like big things. Within communities, though, you can certainly see examples of non-compliance leading to outbreaks (and those events are similar to ones that led to outbreaks before we all knew better -- there are obvious likely super-spreader events, and we are seeing it now with college kids and parties).

    Ok well this person who I was responding to, claimed that the spread of cases was due to "people not behaving."
    NZ's cases were from abroad. NZ has been generally open, because they managed to shut the border, quarantine those coming in, and thus have no community spread. What that means is that they should be able to get the current (very small, vs the US, it's crazy you seem to think we have any grounds to say they are not doing well) number of cases down to 0 pretty quickly, as they have a system in place and few enough cases that they can do real contact tracing and quarantine.

    They don't even know where these new cases in New Zealand came from, and even resorted to claiming they may have come from frozen food shipments. My guess is that there was likely low-level community spread that was undetected, considering how many cases of COVID-19 are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/new-zealand-baffled-by-new-covid-19-cases-eyes-frozen-food-packaging/

    And if you don't get rid of it entirely, all it takes is a few cases and it will begin spreading again. We know they failed at totally eradicating it once already. Then, of course, even if you do eradicate it, then you're stuck being cut off from the rest of the world until a vaccine that may never come or may take years.
    But to answer the question -- I think a hard lockdown combined with getting testing really up to speed early on would have allowed us to get cases down to a low enough number that we could be testing and tracing and could open schools (here stores are already open and restaurants for outside service, so schools are the main thing that I am concerned about being closed).

    The US is testing on par with other Western countries (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing). Lack of testing has not been a problem for us for months.

    Contact tracing, apart from having some serious privacy concerns, is also difficult to do when there is already established community spread. Even Germany's "successful" contact-tracing program is missing a lot of cases.
    https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-why-testing-and-contact-tracing-isnt-a-simple-solution-137214
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/03/why-coronavirus-contact-tracing-apps-havent-been-a-game-changer.html

    "In May, a report said Iceland had achieved the largest penetration of any virus-tracking app, with 38% of its 364,000 inhabitants installing it. But the Iceland app, which collected people’s GPS data, “wasn’t a game changer,” according to Gestur Pálmason, the deputy chief inspector of Iceland’s Covid-19 tracing team. "
    They aren't closed. They are merely closed to other countries, but for those quarantining. As it gets more in control in the rest of the world, that will change, and yes part of all this depends on whether we can get good vaccine or treatments.

    Huh? In parts of Australia people are not even allowed to travel more than 5km from their home or exercise outside for more than 60 minutes. And they are stopped and harassed by the police whenever they go outside. That sure sounds "closed" to me.
    I think you've been reading some bad sources, because Australia has had schools open, and is certainly not entirely shut down. That people WITH the illness are quarantined doesn't mean everyone must stay indoors.

    Bad sources? The Guardian is a "bad source"?

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/19/victoria-stage-4-restrictions-melbourne-lockdown-rules-covid-19-stage-four-metropolitan-metro-explained-what-you-need-to-know
  • cgvet37
    cgvet37 Posts: 1,189 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.

    I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.

    It really isn't though. All the campaigns I have seen make it pretty clear that the effort is to help those around you and it''s delivered as a really simple thing that you can do that might help.

    Such a simple thing, that many people can't even wear a mask properly. I guess they think the virus can't enter through their noses. Or know anything about cross contamination. There is plastic on the keypad, I'm safe.
  • jamloche
    jamloche Posts: 109 Member
    edited August 2020

    The problem is that [utilizing PPE and good hygiene] never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.

    I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry). But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.

    Now here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
  • BrustMannEiner
    BrustMannEiner Posts: 360 Member
    Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".

    I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.

    Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
  • laurenq1991
    laurenq1991 Posts: 384 Member
    jamloche wrote: »
    I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.

    Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?
    Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).

    Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."
    But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.

    Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.

    The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!

    However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
    https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
    https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
    https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
    https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.html
    Now here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly

    The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.
    No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.

    Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.
    Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.

    This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.

    Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.
  • cgvet37
    cgvet37 Posts: 1,189 Member
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    cgvet37 wrote: »
    Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

    If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.

    I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.

    No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.

    Wear your mask and save humanity.
  • BrustMannEiner
    BrustMannEiner Posts: 360 Member
    edited August 2020

    Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now. I'm getting by day by day doing all I can to keep my loved ones safe. I don't believe eradication was on the agenda here just to do what we can to keep the cases as low as we can.
    I can't speak for NZ but I think Australia is doing ok, try not to worry so much about us and our endgame.

    That has basically been my overall point. Hey, all youins across the US, we are doing fine, stop messing with us and worry about yourselves.
  • BrustMannEiner
    BrustMannEiner Posts: 360 Member
    Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".

    I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.

    Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.

    If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.

    As a resolution I agree to disagree with your statement.
This discussion has been closed.