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Face mask or no face mask?
Replies
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BrustMannEiner wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.
As a resolution I agree to disagree with your statement.
On any particular grounds? Just disliking masks?4 -
Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower.
The areas of the US that are having surges are areas that never had a first wave in the first place. Italy already had a first wave. So you really can't compare the two. Also, Italy has HIGHER deaths per million than the US (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/). I know the media loves to act like the US has a way higher death rate than any other country, but that's so untrue.The upturn in some European countries hit hard before suggests to me that they are not at herd immunity (which makes it unlikely Sweden is, although I agree its numbers look good currently), and thus that it was the lockdowns that got the numbers under control.
So the lockdowns just delayed cases and prolonged things, which was exactly my point. Even if Sweden doesn't have herd immunity, which remains to be seen, it still isn't doing much worse deaths-wise than a lot of places that locked down, and it also is doing much better economically and on second-order deaths and negative consequences.Reducing total cases until we understand more about the virus and hopefully have treatments that are more effective or a vaccine therefore seems like a good idea.
Until you consider that the lockdowns kill people too (check out all the sources I posted on my last post).IMO, the US has been economically hurt more because we didn't have a more strict lockdown/border closing and instead this is being prolonged with cases at a relatively high level in various places throughout the country.
Citation needed. We started closing borders in February before many other countries (and were vilified for it at the time).I think that was the main reason, but I also think reducing unnecessary deaths from the virus is a good policy. I would say a short lockdown for the purpose of getting cases low enough so that we could trace and quarantine so reduce spread that way (what they did in some other countries) would have been a good thing, but we haven't actually done that. Instead we did this half-kitten thing that is miserable but allows still for extensive community spread many new cases, and thus feels never ending.
But contact tracing and quarantining just prolongs the pandemic. If hospitals aren't overwhelmed, there isn't much reason to do it. Also, as I already posted, no country has really had a game-changing contact-tracing program. The success of South Korea, for example, probably has a lot more to do with their extremely low obesity rate, considering Japan also has been similarly successful.I don't think the difference between places is that alone, no. I think within places some percentage of people not complying is related to the numbers within that place -- people ignoring the rules and having giant house parties, for just one example, I think can cause superspreading events. But this whole X state/country is good, Y state/country is bad is, I think, not a good way to approach the issue.
And yet you see so many pro-lockdown people saying these kinds of things. You see so many people, even within the US, taking gleeful joy in trashing the US and acting like it's the worst, when factually speaking when you look at the data, it isn't. You see so many people acting like contracting a virus is a moral failing, and equating unknowingly spreading a virus to murder. I thought we got over this regressive and unhelpful behavior during the AIDS pandemic, but apparently not.Okay, fair, I was mixing their new cases up with one of the recent spikes in AU. but the fact remains that they have few enough cases that they can address these much more easily than the US can address our cases. I don't get the urge -- and honestly I think it makes the US look foolish -- to act like NZ has something to worry about. We have no hill to stand on here.
So how do you think NZ will get out of lockdown? Because they already tried eradication once and it failed. And even if they did somehow manage to eradicate it, they'd have to close their borders forever. Even if a vaccine comes, which could take years, no vaccine in history has ever been 100% effective.If they get fast and reliable tests, as we seem to have here (although not in adequate numbers right now, they seem mostly to be used for bigwigs, although U of IL is hoping to use them as part of its on campus efforts), then they could use those going forward and not be cutoff.
But they are testing already. Testing hasn't been a problem in any Western country for months.I realize that, and made it clear I was referring to our EARLY response although response time is way too long even now. If you reread what I said, I said that we needed to be doing that early on, when test and trace was still a possibility. Now it seems too late with the level of cases we currently have.
The thing is, studies indicate that COVID-19 was already community spreading in the US and Europe in November or December 2019, possibly even earlier. We didn't even know that COVID-19 existed until January 2020, and it took time to develop a test for it. There was no way that we could have tested and traced every case under the circumstances, because it was already widespread by the time we could feasibly develop a test, and because of asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic spread.Does it matter if Germany is missing a lot of cases if it's cases are as low as they are (as shown by deaths per capita -- a much better way to compare likely cases per country since everyone is missing lots of cases). They are in a position to safely open schools, it seems.
Well, it depends. If you're one of the pro-lockdown "if it prevents only one death!" type of people, then yeah, it does matter. I'm more of a "look at the situation in aggregate" type of person. And most public health experts believe schools should be reopened even in the US. There really hasn't been a sufficient explanation about why Germany has such a low death rate though. From what I've read, researchers don't really think contact tracing is a huge contributor to it.
This study took place from January to April. That was months ago. I'm talking about the lockdowns that are going on now.Also, the rules you are talking about are Stage 4 rules in place in discrete parts of AU with spiking cases
It's for the entire state of Victoria. Victoria has 1/4th of the population of Australia (about 6.5 million people out of a total population of about 25.5 million). Other areas are now coming under the same restrictions as well.but they are temporary, and for a much shorter time than the shutdowns that parts of the US have been dealing with
Hey, remember when the US lockdowns were supposed to be "for two weeks to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed"?I personally think that: (1) no more than 5 km from your house, and (2) no more than 1 hour outside make no sense (and may be counterproductive), but that doesn't hurt the economy more than the US style shutdowns would, I wouldn't think.
It hurts mental and physical health, promotes authoritarian overreach, and does absolutely nothing to stop spread. Especially as it promotes obesity which is one of the top risk factors for dying from COVID-19.
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I like Tea Tree face masks. It leaves my skin nice and glowing. It also smells really nice.
And for the 10 minutes it’s on, I feel like Kermit the Frog. 🐸5 -
slimgirljo15 wrote: »Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now.
No offense, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life. No public policy should ever be enacted without thinking of the long-term effects, especially one as historically unprecedented as this.
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laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now.
No offense, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life. No public policy should ever be enacted without thinking of the long-term effects, especially one as historically unprecedented as this.
No offense taken,you're entitled to your opinion of course, as am I.
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PaperDoll_ wrote: »I like Tea Tree face masks. It leaves my skin nice and glowing. It also smells really nice.
And for the 10 minutes it’s on, I feel like Kermit the Frog. 🐸
😂 thanks for the laugh2 -
PaperDoll_ wrote: »I like Tea Tree face masks. It leaves my skin nice and glowing. It also smells really nice.
And for the 10 minutes it’s on, I feel like Kermit the Frog. 🐸
I like how your skin tastes after the mask. Oh, and the way you call me Miss Piggy 🥰5 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »[I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.
So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here.
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.
Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?
Do you realise that is why there are sex toys and hands. You Don't have to have sex with others or just do it with your other half and not half of the town. lol0 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »AliciaHollywood wrote: »Here in California it’s a mandate to wear a mask and I’m glad! In the City of West Hollywood they are now fining people for not wearing a mask and I’m glad! All indoor dining in restaurants is closed but they allow outdoor dining with tables 6 feet apart where mask wearing is not mandated but even then I wear a face shield and have learned to eat under the face shield lol. When I go to the beach in a non-crowded area, I take it off, but that’s it. I think if everyone just wore the stupid mask for 14 days, stayed to themselves and didn’t cheat, we would have been over this months ago!
Matt Damon, put your mask on and keep your hands away from your face!2 -
They are to prevent any droplets coming out of you.5
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laurenq1991 wrote: »Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower.
The areas of the US that are having surges are areas that never had a first wave in the first place. Italy already had a first wave. So you really can't compare the two. Also, Italy has HIGHER deaths per million than the US (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/). I know the media loves to act like the US has a way higher death rate than any other country, but that's so untrue.
You are attributing stuff that annoys you in the media to me, which is unfair. Also, I think you are biased (assuming you are describing accurately what it is like around you) in that you are in one of the areas of the country where people may be verbally aggressive to those not wearing masks. Where I am, no one says anything, and it seems like (from what others have said) that in most areas of the country you are more likely to get mocked for wearing a mask.
Anyway, you also missed my point about Italy. You seem to be arguing (1) countries/states with low rates must have hit herd immunity, and (2) Italy has cases increasing now, so lockdowns don't work. If Italy doesn't have herd immunity (and the new cases don't seem to be in entirely different parts of Italy than that hit hard before), then we can't assume anyone does. I would agree there are weird things about the virus patterns that we don't understand yet, but that doesn't make me think I should insist that I know all and all precautions others think might help are dumb, as you seem to be claiming. Frankly, what went on in Italy and NYC metro was horrific, and I'd prefer to avoid it elsewhere.
What happened in Europe was that other countries saw what was happening in Italy and acted to try to prevent it from happening where they were. They were more and less successful -- some countries that were especially close or international or dense got hit anyway. In theory, other states here could have seen what was happening with the ones that got hit early and avoided it, and that's why people are saying the states getting hit now (I agree largely fir the first time) should have been more prepared.
Oh, and we didn't close borders with China in February, not even close, and we didn't do a thing about European flights or bother even testing or quarantining returning Americans until March. This was long after even just regular people like me were asking why we weren't quarantining, and spread from Europe seems to have been the biggest issue in the East and Midwest.But contact tracing and quarantining just prolongs the pandemic.
This is where we disagree. It seems to me that what we are doing now is what is prolonging the pandemic.And yet you see so many pro-lockdown people saying these kinds of things. You see so many people, even within the US, taking gleeful joy in trashing the US and acting like it's the worst, when factually speaking when you look at the data, it isn't. You see so many people acting like contracting a virus is a moral failing, and equating unknowingly spreading a virus to murder. I thought we got over this regressive and unhelpful behavior during the AIDS pandemic, but apparently not.
I am not saying any of the things you are arguing against.
I do think -- back on topic! -- that it's selfish not to wear a mask when you cannot social distance or in stores and other indoor spaces occupied by those not in your particular COVID bubble.So how do you think NZ will get out of lockdown?
Cases will die down again, as they did before. They are quite low compared with ours, and especially look at deaths per capita.Even if a vaccine comes, which could take years, no vaccine in history has ever been 100% effective.
No one is demanding 100% effectiveness.But they are testing already. Testing hasn't been a problem in any Western country for months.
There's a big difference between fast tests (like within a few hours or less, as they are apparently using some places--like for people who travel to Germany, for example--and among some in the US) and tests where you have to wait more than a week for a result, which seems to be a problem here now. The former could be used to really reduce spread.Well, it depends. If you're one of the pro-lockdown "if it prevents only one death!" type of people, then yeah, it does matter. I'm more of a "look at the situation in aggregate" type of person. And most public health experts believe schools should be reopened even in the US. There really hasn't been a sufficient explanation about why Germany has such a low death rate though. From what I've read, researchers don't really think contact tracing is a huge contributor to it.
You are strawmanning.
Schools being reopened in the US in a lot of places would probably lead to more community spread (that was an issue in Israel) because of the number of cases we currently have. And if they lead to even school-focused (students and teachers) outbreaks, the schools will be in a pattern of opening and closing, which is not helpful. I think it is important for schools to be open, as I am worried about the students not getting an education (or showing up at all), which is a problem in my local school district, but with the number of cases we have I don't think they would stay open, and I think we would have a spike. (The most recent studies seem to indicate that earlier beliefs that kids don't spread it are probably wrong.)Hey, remember when the US lockdowns were supposed to be "for two weeks to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed"?
But AU actually followed a different path than we did and so didn't have to close schools, etc. The idea that they have been living under this horribly oppressive regime all this time and stuck in their houses since March is really inaccurate.
Also, where I am and where you are, re-opening after two weeks would have likely resulted in hospitals being overwhelmed. My city/state flattened the curve and therefore we didn't end up having the problem with hospital/ICU space it initially looked like we might. But that process was not accomplished after 2 weeks, we weren't to the top of the curve until much later.8 -
Wearing a mask in public, for me, has become like wearing a seat belt. I feel naked without it. Plus it covers my teeth in case I didn't see the broccoli.11
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laurenq1991 wrote: »
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex.
In reality, the response of public health officials and heavily impacted communities in the early days of the HIV epidemic DID involve varying attempts to regulate sex, limit risky encounters, and motivate people to change behaviors. Nobody "banned sex," but in some cities bathhouses (popular venues for casual sex encounters) were closed. In others, certain activities were banned or discouraged, PPE was required, and signs reminding people of current safety guidelines were posted. Within the community, there were many working to encourage gay men to limit their sexual encounters -- especially in the days before it was exactly understood how the illness was being transmitted and there was no test. Some advocated for celibacy, some for monogamy, others for voluntarily limiting to sexual behaviors understood to be lower risk.
Did we "beat" HIV? No, but but people clearly understood that having LESS people infected is better than having MORE people infected. And with the combination of testing and improved treatment (and now anti-infection tools like pre-exposure drugs), the situation is dramatically different than it was in the 80s. There were some mis-steps, but all in all, is this such a terrible model for where we'd like to be someday with COVID-19?
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »AliciaHollywood wrote: »Here in California it’s a mandate to wear a mask and I’m glad! In the City of West Hollywood they are now fining people for not wearing a mask and I’m glad! All indoor dining in restaurants is closed but they allow outdoor dining with tables 6 feet apart where mask wearing is not mandated but even then I wear a face shield and have learned to eat under the face shield lol. When I go to the beach in a non-crowded area, I take it off, but that’s it. I think if everyone just wore the stupid mask for 14 days, stayed to themselves and didn’t cheat, we would have been over this months ago!
Matt Damon, put your mask on and keep your hands away from your face!
Canned footage, but that was clever
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »
While I doubt it will become as cultural here in the US as it is in some Asian countries, I hope it becomes normal to wear one when we have colds and flu.8 -
You are attributing stuff that annoys you in the media to me, which is unfair.
No I didn't. I said "the media" is inaccurately representing statistics. You claimed that Italy had a lower death rate than the US, and I corrected it, with sources.Also, I think you are biased (assuming you are describing accurately what it is like around you) in that you are in one of the areas of the country where people may be verbally aggressive to those not wearing masks. Where I am, no one says anything, and it seems like (from what others have said) that in most areas of the country you are more likely to get mocked for wearing a mask.
Well, I could just as well say you're biased for assuming that in "most" places you are likely to get mocked for wearing a mask. Most metropolitan areas are on the mask-shaming side of things, as are a lot of suburbs. That's not what I've seen online, either. There are videos online from all over the country of people getting yelled at and even beat up for not wearing a mask.If Italy doesn't have herd immunity (and the new cases don't seem to be in entirely different parts of Italy than that hit hard before), then we can't assume anyone does.
Yes, exactly. But my point is, even if Sweden doesn't have herd immunity, their death rate is still on par with many European countries that locked down, such as Italy. Even if they do have an increase in cases at some point, as is happening in Italy, France, etc. it's probably not going to be worse than whatever is happening in these other European countries that locked down, based on historical precedent and the fact they've been open the whole time and therefore likely had more spread so far than these locked-down countries.
And no matter how long a country locks down, it can't prevent the virus, it can only delay it. So there's no point locking down unless the hospital system is going to be overwhelmed, which, in Sweden, it never was.Frankly, what went on in Italy and NYC metro was horrific, and I'd prefer to avoid it elsewhere.
It hasn't happened anywhere else despite many places being reopened almost totally for months. NY/NJ's situation was obviously due largely to the nursing home mismanagement, as well as poor hospital quality in certain areas (Elmhurst Hospital, for example, is notoriously awful, and was in one of the hardest-hit areas). I don't know what happened in Italy considering they had to triage patients and even NYC didn't, but I know that their medical system gets overwhelmed by the seasonal flu every year, so, maybe it's just not that great.In theory, other states here could have seen what was happening with the ones that got hit early and avoided it, and that's why people are saying the states getting hit now (I agree largely fir the first time) should have been more prepared.
But they did. The case surges now are nothing compared to NYC or Italy. Don't believe the hype. (Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm)
Oh, and we didn't close borders with China in February, not even close,
Can you do me a favor and at least rudimentarily fact-check these assertions you keep making? Because you keep saying things that are just factually inaccurate. We did restrict travel from China in February, and were criticized for it and called racist at the time. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/politics/trump-super-bowl-interview-coronavirus.htmlThis is where we disagree. It seems to me that what we are doing now is what is prolonging the pandemic.
How? Can you explain exactly how you think contact tracing and quarantining is going to eliminate the virus, as opposed to just delaying its spread?I am not saying any of the things you are arguing against.
I never said you were.Cases will die down again, as they did before. They are quite low compared with ours, and especially look at deaths per capita.
Ok, so it dies down again, and then what? Everything reopens, cases go up, everything closes, repeat ad infinitum? That's the strategy? If so, what is the end game?No one is demanding 100% effectiveness.
Apparently they are, if entire countries are being shut down over a few hundred cases, and people are demanding shutdown until a vaccine and "if it saves only one life!" Do you think these "shut everything until a vaccine" people are going to accept "oh, wait, the vaccine is only 50 or 70% effective"?Schools being reopened in the US in a lot of places would probably lead to more community spread (that was an issue in Israel) because of the number of cases we currently have. And if they lead to even school-focused (students and teachers) outbreaks, the schools will be in a pattern of opening and closing, which is not helpful. I think it is important for schools to be open, as I am worried about the students not getting an education (or showing up at all), which is a problem in my local school district, but with the number of cases we have I don't think they would stay open, and I think we would have a spike. (The most recent studies seem to indicate that earlier beliefs that kids don't spread it are probably wrong.)
The question is, what is the tradeoff between leaving things open and possibly having a few deaths, and the longer-term health consequences of keeping schools closed? That's a controversial question but that's what officials have to ask. In the H1N1 pandemic, people died as a result of schools being open (someone at my college even did), and yet they mostly stayed open with only a few short-term, localized closures. Now it's considered to be anathema to even bring up the question. Also, it's important to note that countries that left schools open, like Sweden, didn't have much spread within schools. Norway's public health minister stated that she regretted not leaving the schools open and closed them out of "fear."But AU actually followed a different path than we did and so didn't have to close schools, etc. The idea that they have been living under this horribly oppressive regime all this time and stuck in their houses since March is really inaccurate.
When did I ever say they were living under lockdown since March? The lockdown they're living under now is horribly oppressive, but, no, it hasn't been going on since MARCH and I never said it did. However, I doubt they will be out of it anytime soon.Also, where I am and where you are, re-opening after two weeks would have likely resulted in hospitals being overwhelmed. My city/state flattened the curve and therefore we didn't end up having the problem with hospital/ICU space it initially looked like we might. But that process was not accomplished after 2 weeks, we weren't to the top of the curve until much later.
Then why did they tell people it was two weeks, when it was obvious to anyone with a brain that it was going to be longer?
In the NYC area we could have probably reopened in May or June and been fine. Meanwhile we still aren't reopened fully.
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I wear one where it is required and I always bring one with me. If I am going to be around a small group of people I ask what they all prefer. If even one person requests I wear the mask I will out of respect for them. I don't judge because I don't know everyone's situation so I just try to be respectful. However I refuse to wear one while hiking, mountain biking or doing any outdoor activities because that's just ridiculous.5
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janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
^^ I agree with this comment 100%.
I work in retail, unfortunately. I'm around hundreds of people during the week.
The people I've seen who refuse to wear masks claim medical issues like asthma, or they just plain refuse to wear a mask for 15-20 minutes. We have a state mandate that requires masks in all businesses, but some people don't care. I feel maskless people should be refused entry. If you have a medical issue, wear a face shield instead or have somebody else shop for you.
From my own experience, people refuse to wear masks because of denial and willful ignorance:
(1) People who won't read or listen to doctors and other qualified experts who say the masks DO reduce the droplets that carry the virus we expel when we talk, cough, and breathe -- and reduce what we breathe in when those droplets are still in the air. These qualified experts are on all the major news sites and channels, so there's no excuse for saying you don't know.
(2) Many people, especially young people, refuse to believe there's a serious pandemic going on. Their own grandmother hasn't come down with the disease, so it can't be real. People don't want to make small changes to their way of life.
OR people who say the economy is suffering, so the virus must be overblown -- these people are incapable of looking at a complicated issue that involves suffering with no easy fix.
(3) And plain old extreme selfishness -- many people only care about themselves. They're not sick, so that's the bottom line. They're too ignorant to know they could be asymptomatic and spread the disease, and they don't care as long as they can keep doing the things they enjoy.14 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »
This is why this conversation is so frustrating. You misread or misrepresent what others say. You said Italy was having a spike in cases. I said it was nothing like the spike in cases the US is having -- you use as if equivalent places with far lower current cases than the US. Then you change the topic entirely to total per capita cases being (so far) more in Italy (which I knew, I have been obsessing about all the different stats for ages now), and so I pointed out a conflict in your arguments. Then you claim that I said that Italy has few deaths per capita than the US, which I did not say. This is why I don't think you are serious about wanting to have a real discussion, and I am done. Too bad, as I think we do have some areas of agreement. I am not merely reiterating whatever media stuff you think is annoying and so choose to argue against.
Oh, before I am done, here is another doozy:
Me: Oh, and we didn't close borders with China in February, not even close, (And then went on to talk about the more significant issues re European travel and people coming home without being tested.
You: Can you do me a favor and at least rudimentarily fact-check these assertions you keep making? Because you keep saying things that are just factually inaccurate. We did restrict travel from China in February, and were criticized for it and called racist at the time.
Note the shifty change of claim. I said we did not close borders, as you claimed. Then you accuse me of being unaware that we "restricted travel" -- a different thing. This has all been talked about on the coronavirus thread at length, btw. The truth is that we cosmetically restricted travel from China (we were not the first to do so) but there were loopholes such that it was ineffective. In particular there were certain flights not limited, flights that went through various other countries were not limited, and of course US citizens were allowed to return (as they should have been), but there was no testing or quarantine in place. This was much more of an issue with Europe, as I said before, which was not restricted at all and people brought back from Italy without testing and quarantine even after Italy was clearly having a problem (as posters here from Italy were among those discussing).
Oh, and I live in a big city, as explained, and what you claim happens re masks -- people being mean and aggressive to those not wearing them -- does not happen. Mostly people fight on NextDoor about it, much like here, but wouldn't dream of saying something to someone in person, as we don't do that.12
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