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Face mask or no face mask?
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laurenq1991 wrote: »
The problem is that [utilizing PPE and good hygiene] never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.
I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry). But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Now here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
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will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.10 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »We don't know for sure, but likely, yes, there would have been more deaths without the lockdown (such as it was). Italy is a comparison, where it seems shutting down reduced the cases.
What is your evidence that shutting down Italy permanently reduced the cases, as opposed to just delaying them? Especially considering it's having an increase in cases right now: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-08-20/italy-sees-845-new-covid-19-cases-highest-since-end-of-lockdown-in-may
Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower. The upturn in some European countries hit hard before suggests to me that they are not at herd immunity (which makes it unlikely Sweden is, although I agree its numbers look good currently), and thus that it was the lockdowns that got the numbers under control. Reducing total cases until we understand more about the virus and hopefully have treatments that are more effective or a vaccine therefore seems like a good idea. I am not saying everyone should lockdown for months. IMO, the US has been economically hurt more because we didn't have a more strict lockdown/border closing and instead this is being prolonged with cases at a relatively high level in various places throughout the country.
But I will agree with you (maybe) that we should be humble about what we don't know yet, and assuming you know something we won't know for a year or 2 seems foolhardy.So then you agree with me, that the only reason to lock down would be to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed, not to permanently stop or eradicate cases?
I think that was the main reason, but I also think reducing unnecessary deaths from the virus is a good policy. I would say a short lockdown for the purpose of getting cases low enough so that we could trace and quarantine so reduce spread that way (what they did in some other countries) would have been a good thing, but we haven't actually done that. Instead we did this half-kitten thing that is miserable but allows still for extensive community spread many new cases, and thus feels never ending.
I think it should have been regional since if the borders had been shut between states, there was really no reason for some parts of the country to shut down early. And the longer a shut down drags on, the more people won't comply. More and more, where I am, people are just seeming to be over it, and I get it.Ok well this person who I was responding to, claimed that the spread of cases was due to "people not behaving."
I don't think the difference between places is that alone, no. I think within places some percentage of people not complying is related to the numbers within that place -- people ignoring the rules and having giant house parties, for just one example, I think can cause superspreading events. But this whole X state/country is good, Y state/country is bad is, I think, not a good way to approach the issue.They don't even know where these new cases in New Zealand came from, and even resorted to claiming they may have come from frozen food shipments. My guess is that there was likely low-level community spread that was undetected, considering how many cases of COVID-19 are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/new-zealand-baffled-by-new-covid-19-cases-eyes-frozen-food-packaging/
Okay, fair, I was mixing their new cases up with one of the recent spikes in AU. but the fact remains that they have few enough cases that they can address these much more easily than the US can address our cases. I don't get the urge -- and honestly I think it makes the US look foolish -- to act like NZ has something to worry about. We have no hill to stand on here.And if you don't get rid of it entirely, all it takes is a few cases and it will begin spreading again. We know they failed at totally eradicating it once already. Then, of course, even if you do eradicate it, then you're stuck being cut off from the rest of the world until a vaccine that may never come or may take years.
If they get fast and reliable tests, as we seem to have here (although not in adequate numbers right now, they seem mostly to be used for bigwigs, although U of IL is hoping to use them as part of its on campus efforts), then they could use those going forward and not be cutoff.The US is testing on par with other Western countries (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing). Lack of testing has not been a problem for us for months.
I realize that, and made it clear I was referring to our EARLY response although response time is way too long even now. If you reread what I said, I said that we needed to be doing that early on, when test and trace was still a possibility. Now it seems too late with the level of cases we currently have.Contact tracing, apart from having some serious privacy concerns, is also difficult to do when there is already established community spread. Even Germany's "successful" contact-tracing program is missing a lot of cases.
https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-why-testing-and-contact-tracing-isnt-a-simple-solution-137214
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/03/why-coronavirus-contact-tracing-apps-havent-been-a-game-changer.html
Does it matter if Germany is missing a lot of cases if it's cases are as low as they are (as shown by deaths per capita -- a much better way to compare likely cases per country since everyone is missing lots of cases). They are in a position to safely open schools, it seems.Huh? In parts of Australia people are not even allowed to travel more than 5km from their home or exercise outside for more than 60 minutes. And they are stopped and harassed by the police whenever they go outside. That sure sounds "closed" to me.
I have listened to interviews with people in Australia about the current situation (well, a month ago), and that is not at all what was said, so I would like the people here from Australia to weigh in: " In Australia, most schools have remained open during the first epidemic wave, albeit with reduced student physical attendance at the epidemic peak."
Here's one source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30251-0/fulltext
Similarly, before the latest (mini, compared to most countries) outbreak in NZ, they were on Level 2 by mid May (which is as open as "opening up" is here, basically just try to social distance as possible at workplaces and schools and no gatherings over 100 -- Sweden also bans large gatherings -- and then Level 1, which is basically back to normal with added vigilance in early June. Way better than what we've been stuck with during that same period.
Also, the rules you are talking about are Stage 4 rules in place in discrete parts of AU with spiking cases, but they are temporary, and for a much shorter time than the shutdowns that parts of the US have been dealing with, because they were in the past able to get cases under control. And because they have borders between states shut, other areas are not affected by those and can have less strict rules. I personally think that: (1) no more than 5 km from your house, and (2) no more than 1 hour outside make no sense (and may be counterproductive), but that doesn't hurt the economy more than the US style shutdowns would, I wouldn't think. IMO, it is far worse to have longer ineffective "shutdowns" than stricter short ones when needed.
I think generalizing about temporary rules in discrete parts of Australia as if they were what Australia in general had had since this all started is misleading, and part of the disconnect in this conversation, although I am not saying you were meaning to be intentionally misleading.5 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.
The problem is that it never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
You're literally making a smug post about how your country "behaved," in order to tell me that people in your country weren't acting smug about zero cases and claiming they "behaved."
Call me back in two years and let me know how it all turned out over there in the end. All you guys are doing is delaying cases.Also to laurenq1991. You do realise the people being kept in quarantine in Australia are staying in rather nice hotels? They aren't being forced to stay in a hell hole. It isn't that they are put in some jail. Yes maybe now they have to pay to stay now but it's not a bad place to be but they knew they would have to right now. Don't travel if you can't afford the stay in a nice hotel for two weeks. I have paid to stay in some of them for vacation so I don't care what it's called it's still nice hotels, you are just doing what you should be doing to stop the spread of the virus. It's not hard. You get meals delivered and all the mod cons lay back, watch TV or work from there if you can.. no big deal.
You mean like the people who were imprisoned in their low-income apartments in Melbourne with no food, medication, or baby formula? Yeah, this sure looks like a five-star hotel to me!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/14/police-presence-at-melbourne-towers-was-dehumanising-infectious-disease-doctor-says
https://au.news.yahoo.com/tower-lockdowns-spark-dozens-complaints-004300913--spt.html
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2020/07/06/public-housing-lockdown-coronavirus/
"Residents yelling for help from windows, friends turned away from dropping off care packages and masked police officers at the end of every corridor.
This is the scene for about 3000 residents trapped inside public housing towers brought under sudden lockdown in Melbourne."
"But the tense atmosphere outside a public housing block in Flemington tells a different story.
There, residents said they feel more like they’re in jail.
On Sunday, cries for help could be heard coming from the flats at 12 Holland Court.
A sign plastered onto a fifth-floor window read: ‘Treat us as humans, not caged animals’."
"In one instance, Mr Ige said it took the Department of Health and Human Services “at least 24 hours to deliver baby formula”.
Alkira Austin, a 27-year-old Gunditjmara woman, said one family had to wait 18 hours before they were delivered any food packages.
“And the food packages were so basic – just pasta and sauce, and no bread or milk,” Ms Austin told The New Daily."
And these nice hotels are so great, that the people in them want to kill themselves and "distressed children" are spreading human waste on the walls, and the guards ignore it.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/victorian-coronavirus-hotel-quarantine-inquiry-told-dhhs-staff-ignored-suicide-threats-lost-track-of-guests-at-parkroyal/ar-BB18aJMk
"Meanwhile, a Melbourne lawyer who stayed at the Rydges Hotel has revealed images showing the filthy room he and his family were asked to stay in, which included discarded gloves on the floor, scraps of food and a blood-stained doona."
"Jen said this resulted in daily welfare checks not being conducted on a family for a week.
"It was very obvious that DHHS were having a hard time keeping a track of who was in the hotel and when," she said."
"Another woman suffering "excruciating" pain from endometriosis was denied access to a kettle to boil water by DHHS staff, Jen said. The kettle was to be used to boil water to make herbal medicine that the woman regularly used while suffering the condition.
"They were in so much pain it was affecting their speech," Jen said."
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/kids-spread-human-waste-covid-hotel/4081360/
"It is thought the family's distressed children spread human waste in the room."
Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.13 -
Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.4 -
I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Wear your mask and save humanity.3 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.
Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now. I'm getting by day by day doing all I can to keep my loved ones safe. I don't believe eradication was on the agenda here just to do what we can to keep the cases as low as we can.
I can't speak for NZ but I think Australia is doing ok, try not to worry so much about us and our endgame.
Nobody can predict what life will be like anywhere in the world 5 years from now so I'm just doing what I need to to do my part and hope that life gets back to normalish.9 -
slimgirljo15 wrote: »
Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now. I'm getting by day by day doing all I can to keep my loved ones safe. I don't believe eradication was on the agenda here just to do what we can to keep the cases as low as we can.
I can't speak for NZ but I think Australia is doing ok, try not to worry so much about us and our endgame.
That has basically been my overall point. Hey, all youins across the US, we are doing fine, stop messing with us and worry about yourselves.2 -
BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.11 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.
Who, exactly, said there was "no way" COVID-19 could ever be spread during a protest where someone was wearing a mask? We're talking about reduced risk. I don't recall ever seeing someone saying that wearing a mask could eliminate the possibility of transmission.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Wear your mask and save humanity.
You're being deliberately ridiculous here. We're talking about risk reduction, not "saving humanity."
Although if you want to be part of the continuation of humanity, risk reduction -- in multiple areas of life -- is a pretty good idea.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.
As a resolution I agree to disagree with your statement.2 -
BrustMannEiner wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.
As a resolution I agree to disagree with your statement.
On any particular grounds? Just disliking masks?4 -
Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower.
The areas of the US that are having surges are areas that never had a first wave in the first place. Italy already had a first wave. So you really can't compare the two. Also, Italy has HIGHER deaths per million than the US (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/). I know the media loves to act like the US has a way higher death rate than any other country, but that's so untrue.The upturn in some European countries hit hard before suggests to me that they are not at herd immunity (which makes it unlikely Sweden is, although I agree its numbers look good currently), and thus that it was the lockdowns that got the numbers under control.
So the lockdowns just delayed cases and prolonged things, which was exactly my point. Even if Sweden doesn't have herd immunity, which remains to be seen, it still isn't doing much worse deaths-wise than a lot of places that locked down, and it also is doing much better economically and on second-order deaths and negative consequences.Reducing total cases until we understand more about the virus and hopefully have treatments that are more effective or a vaccine therefore seems like a good idea.
Until you consider that the lockdowns kill people too (check out all the sources I posted on my last post).IMO, the US has been economically hurt more because we didn't have a more strict lockdown/border closing and instead this is being prolonged with cases at a relatively high level in various places throughout the country.
Citation needed. We started closing borders in February before many other countries (and were vilified for it at the time).I think that was the main reason, but I also think reducing unnecessary deaths from the virus is a good policy. I would say a short lockdown for the purpose of getting cases low enough so that we could trace and quarantine so reduce spread that way (what they did in some other countries) would have been a good thing, but we haven't actually done that. Instead we did this half-kitten thing that is miserable but allows still for extensive community spread many new cases, and thus feels never ending.
But contact tracing and quarantining just prolongs the pandemic. If hospitals aren't overwhelmed, there isn't much reason to do it. Also, as I already posted, no country has really had a game-changing contact-tracing program. The success of South Korea, for example, probably has a lot more to do with their extremely low obesity rate, considering Japan also has been similarly successful.I don't think the difference between places is that alone, no. I think within places some percentage of people not complying is related to the numbers within that place -- people ignoring the rules and having giant house parties, for just one example, I think can cause superspreading events. But this whole X state/country is good, Y state/country is bad is, I think, not a good way to approach the issue.
And yet you see so many pro-lockdown people saying these kinds of things. You see so many people, even within the US, taking gleeful joy in trashing the US and acting like it's the worst, when factually speaking when you look at the data, it isn't. You see so many people acting like contracting a virus is a moral failing, and equating unknowingly spreading a virus to murder. I thought we got over this regressive and unhelpful behavior during the AIDS pandemic, but apparently not.Okay, fair, I was mixing their new cases up with one of the recent spikes in AU. but the fact remains that they have few enough cases that they can address these much more easily than the US can address our cases. I don't get the urge -- and honestly I think it makes the US look foolish -- to act like NZ has something to worry about. We have no hill to stand on here.
So how do you think NZ will get out of lockdown? Because they already tried eradication once and it failed. And even if they did somehow manage to eradicate it, they'd have to close their borders forever. Even if a vaccine comes, which could take years, no vaccine in history has ever been 100% effective.If they get fast and reliable tests, as we seem to have here (although not in adequate numbers right now, they seem mostly to be used for bigwigs, although U of IL is hoping to use them as part of its on campus efforts), then they could use those going forward and not be cutoff.
But they are testing already. Testing hasn't been a problem in any Western country for months.I realize that, and made it clear I was referring to our EARLY response although response time is way too long even now. If you reread what I said, I said that we needed to be doing that early on, when test and trace was still a possibility. Now it seems too late with the level of cases we currently have.
The thing is, studies indicate that COVID-19 was already community spreading in the US and Europe in November or December 2019, possibly even earlier. We didn't even know that COVID-19 existed until January 2020, and it took time to develop a test for it. There was no way that we could have tested and traced every case under the circumstances, because it was already widespread by the time we could feasibly develop a test, and because of asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic spread.Does it matter if Germany is missing a lot of cases if it's cases are as low as they are (as shown by deaths per capita -- a much better way to compare likely cases per country since everyone is missing lots of cases). They are in a position to safely open schools, it seems.
Well, it depends. If you're one of the pro-lockdown "if it prevents only one death!" type of people, then yeah, it does matter. I'm more of a "look at the situation in aggregate" type of person. And most public health experts believe schools should be reopened even in the US. There really hasn't been a sufficient explanation about why Germany has such a low death rate though. From what I've read, researchers don't really think contact tracing is a huge contributor to it.
This study took place from January to April. That was months ago. I'm talking about the lockdowns that are going on now.Also, the rules you are talking about are Stage 4 rules in place in discrete parts of AU with spiking cases
It's for the entire state of Victoria. Victoria has 1/4th of the population of Australia (about 6.5 million people out of a total population of about 25.5 million). Other areas are now coming under the same restrictions as well.but they are temporary, and for a much shorter time than the shutdowns that parts of the US have been dealing with
Hey, remember when the US lockdowns were supposed to be "for two weeks to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed"?I personally think that: (1) no more than 5 km from your house, and (2) no more than 1 hour outside make no sense (and may be counterproductive), but that doesn't hurt the economy more than the US style shutdowns would, I wouldn't think.
It hurts mental and physical health, promotes authoritarian overreach, and does absolutely nothing to stop spread. Especially as it promotes obesity which is one of the top risk factors for dying from COVID-19.
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I like Tea Tree face masks. It leaves my skin nice and glowing. It also smells really nice.
And for the 10 minutes it’s on, I feel like Kermit the Frog. 🐸5 -
slimgirljo15 wrote: »Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now.
No offense, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life. No public policy should ever be enacted without thinking of the long-term effects, especially one as historically unprecedented as this.
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laurenq1991 wrote: »slimgirljo15 wrote: »Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now.
No offense, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life. No public policy should ever be enacted without thinking of the long-term effects, especially one as historically unprecedented as this.
No offense taken,you're entitled to your opinion of course, as am I.
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PaperDoll_ wrote: »I like Tea Tree face masks. It leaves my skin nice and glowing. It also smells really nice.
And for the 10 minutes it’s on, I feel like Kermit the Frog. 🐸
😂 thanks for the laugh2 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »[I don't know enough about all the science and stuff but going back to some of your earlier posts about police in Australia being more forceful than perhaps they should be. I don't know if they were over the top or what happened in each case but I would only like to chime in on if people aren't doing anything wrong then tell the police where or what you are doing and then they don't need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Tell them where you are going etc... Show you are where you are supposed to be and don't lie. How hard is that??? Then we are all helping to get this sorted. I'm in Queensland and not seen some of the stuff you say happen either like slimgirlJo in NSW. Yeah ok maybe it's not on the news. Who knows but do the right thing and we'll get over this crap sooner.
So you aren't concerned, at all, about the authoritarian overreach that made it illegal to go outside and to make a living, in a matter of weeks, with zero due process? That really doesn't bother you, even a tiny bit?In order for this to turn around in a major way, compliance has to be 100% and that just isn't going to happen here.
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex. It just goes against human nature, and the longer it goes on, the less possible it becomes for people to continue. (Which is why suicides and drug overdoses are way up this year!)rheddmobile wrote: »Yeah, I have a liberal arts degree. They taught me basic math and physics, though, which is why I think it’s bizarre to say that New Zealand is doing worse than we are. You have 133 times the chance of being dead if you live here versus New Zealand. They may have deaths tomorrow, but... physics... a lot can happen between now and tomorrow, while the people in America who are already dead are not suddenly going to come alive again.
Maybe you should actually read and comprehend the multiple posts I've already made on why New Zealand's strategy is problematic, then. How do you think they are going to get out of this lockdown?
Do you realise that is why there are sex toys and hands. You Don't have to have sex with others or just do it with your other half and not half of the town. lol0 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »AliciaHollywood wrote: »Here in California it’s a mandate to wear a mask and I’m glad! In the City of West Hollywood they are now fining people for not wearing a mask and I’m glad! All indoor dining in restaurants is closed but they allow outdoor dining with tables 6 feet apart where mask wearing is not mandated but even then I wear a face shield and have learned to eat under the face shield lol. When I go to the beach in a non-crowded area, I take it off, but that’s it. I think if everyone just wore the stupid mask for 14 days, stayed to themselves and didn’t cheat, we would have been over this months ago!
Matt Damon, put your mask on and keep your hands away from your face!2 -
They are to prevent any droplets coming out of you.5
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laurenq1991 wrote: »Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower.
The areas of the US that are having surges are areas that never had a first wave in the first place. Italy already had a first wave. So you really can't compare the two. Also, Italy has HIGHER deaths per million than the US (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/). I know the media loves to act like the US has a way higher death rate than any other country, but that's so untrue.
You are attributing stuff that annoys you in the media to me, which is unfair. Also, I think you are biased (assuming you are describing accurately what it is like around you) in that you are in one of the areas of the country where people may be verbally aggressive to those not wearing masks. Where I am, no one says anything, and it seems like (from what others have said) that in most areas of the country you are more likely to get mocked for wearing a mask.
Anyway, you also missed my point about Italy. You seem to be arguing (1) countries/states with low rates must have hit herd immunity, and (2) Italy has cases increasing now, so lockdowns don't work. If Italy doesn't have herd immunity (and the new cases don't seem to be in entirely different parts of Italy than that hit hard before), then we can't assume anyone does. I would agree there are weird things about the virus patterns that we don't understand yet, but that doesn't make me think I should insist that I know all and all precautions others think might help are dumb, as you seem to be claiming. Frankly, what went on in Italy and NYC metro was horrific, and I'd prefer to avoid it elsewhere.
What happened in Europe was that other countries saw what was happening in Italy and acted to try to prevent it from happening where they were. They were more and less successful -- some countries that were especially close or international or dense got hit anyway. In theory, other states here could have seen what was happening with the ones that got hit early and avoided it, and that's why people are saying the states getting hit now (I agree largely fir the first time) should have been more prepared.
Oh, and we didn't close borders with China in February, not even close, and we didn't do a thing about European flights or bother even testing or quarantining returning Americans until March. This was long after even just regular people like me were asking why we weren't quarantining, and spread from Europe seems to have been the biggest issue in the East and Midwest.But contact tracing and quarantining just prolongs the pandemic.
This is where we disagree. It seems to me that what we are doing now is what is prolonging the pandemic.And yet you see so many pro-lockdown people saying these kinds of things. You see so many people, even within the US, taking gleeful joy in trashing the US and acting like it's the worst, when factually speaking when you look at the data, it isn't. You see so many people acting like contracting a virus is a moral failing, and equating unknowingly spreading a virus to murder. I thought we got over this regressive and unhelpful behavior during the AIDS pandemic, but apparently not.
I am not saying any of the things you are arguing against.
I do think -- back on topic! -- that it's selfish not to wear a mask when you cannot social distance or in stores and other indoor spaces occupied by those not in your particular COVID bubble.So how do you think NZ will get out of lockdown?
Cases will die down again, as they did before. They are quite low compared with ours, and especially look at deaths per capita.Even if a vaccine comes, which could take years, no vaccine in history has ever been 100% effective.
No one is demanding 100% effectiveness.But they are testing already. Testing hasn't been a problem in any Western country for months.
There's a big difference between fast tests (like within a few hours or less, as they are apparently using some places--like for people who travel to Germany, for example--and among some in the US) and tests where you have to wait more than a week for a result, which seems to be a problem here now. The former could be used to really reduce spread.Well, it depends. If you're one of the pro-lockdown "if it prevents only one death!" type of people, then yeah, it does matter. I'm more of a "look at the situation in aggregate" type of person. And most public health experts believe schools should be reopened even in the US. There really hasn't been a sufficient explanation about why Germany has such a low death rate though. From what I've read, researchers don't really think contact tracing is a huge contributor to it.
You are strawmanning.
Schools being reopened in the US in a lot of places would probably lead to more community spread (that was an issue in Israel) because of the number of cases we currently have. And if they lead to even school-focused (students and teachers) outbreaks, the schools will be in a pattern of opening and closing, which is not helpful. I think it is important for schools to be open, as I am worried about the students not getting an education (or showing up at all), which is a problem in my local school district, but with the number of cases we have I don't think they would stay open, and I think we would have a spike. (The most recent studies seem to indicate that earlier beliefs that kids don't spread it are probably wrong.)Hey, remember when the US lockdowns were supposed to be "for two weeks to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed"?
But AU actually followed a different path than we did and so didn't have to close schools, etc. The idea that they have been living under this horribly oppressive regime all this time and stuck in their houses since March is really inaccurate.
Also, where I am and where you are, re-opening after two weeks would have likely resulted in hospitals being overwhelmed. My city/state flattened the curve and therefore we didn't end up having the problem with hospital/ICU space it initially looked like we might. But that process was not accomplished after 2 weeks, we weren't to the top of the curve until much later.8 -
Wearing a mask in public, for me, has become like wearing a seat belt. I feel naked without it. Plus it covers my teeth in case I didn't see the broccoli.11
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laurenq1991 wrote: »
Literally no public health effort ever predicts 100% compliance. It's just not possible. Especially considering what we're asking people to give up -- the things that make us human, like social interaction and work. Trying to beat COVID-19 with lockdowns is like trying to beat the HIV epidemic by banning sex.
In reality, the response of public health officials and heavily impacted communities in the early days of the HIV epidemic DID involve varying attempts to regulate sex, limit risky encounters, and motivate people to change behaviors. Nobody "banned sex," but in some cities bathhouses (popular venues for casual sex encounters) were closed. In others, certain activities were banned or discouraged, PPE was required, and signs reminding people of current safety guidelines were posted. Within the community, there were many working to encourage gay men to limit their sexual encounters -- especially in the days before it was exactly understood how the illness was being transmitted and there was no test. Some advocated for celibacy, some for monogamy, others for voluntarily limiting to sexual behaviors understood to be lower risk.
Did we "beat" HIV? No, but but people clearly understood that having LESS people infected is better than having MORE people infected. And with the combination of testing and improved treatment (and now anti-infection tools like pre-exposure drugs), the situation is dramatically different than it was in the 80s. There were some mis-steps, but all in all, is this such a terrible model for where we'd like to be someday with COVID-19?
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »AliciaHollywood wrote: »Here in California it’s a mandate to wear a mask and I’m glad! In the City of West Hollywood they are now fining people for not wearing a mask and I’m glad! All indoor dining in restaurants is closed but they allow outdoor dining with tables 6 feet apart where mask wearing is not mandated but even then I wear a face shield and have learned to eat under the face shield lol. When I go to the beach in a non-crowded area, I take it off, but that’s it. I think if everyone just wore the stupid mask for 14 days, stayed to themselves and didn’t cheat, we would have been over this months ago!
Matt Damon, put your mask on and keep your hands away from your face!
Canned footage, but that was clever
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Theoldguy1 wrote: »
While I doubt it will become as cultural here in the US as it is in some Asian countries, I hope it becomes normal to wear one when we have colds and flu.8 -
You are attributing stuff that annoys you in the media to me, which is unfair.
No I didn't. I said "the media" is inaccurately representing statistics. You claimed that Italy had a lower death rate than the US, and I corrected it, with sources.Also, I think you are biased (assuming you are describing accurately what it is like around you) in that you are in one of the areas of the country where people may be verbally aggressive to those not wearing masks. Where I am, no one says anything, and it seems like (from what others have said) that in most areas of the country you are more likely to get mocked for wearing a mask.
Well, I could just as well say you're biased for assuming that in "most" places you are likely to get mocked for wearing a mask. Most metropolitan areas are on the mask-shaming side of things, as are a lot of suburbs. That's not what I've seen online, either. There are videos online from all over the country of people getting yelled at and even beat up for not wearing a mask.If Italy doesn't have herd immunity (and the new cases don't seem to be in entirely different parts of Italy than that hit hard before), then we can't assume anyone does.
Yes, exactly. But my point is, even if Sweden doesn't have herd immunity, their death rate is still on par with many European countries that locked down, such as Italy. Even if they do have an increase in cases at some point, as is happening in Italy, France, etc. it's probably not going to be worse than whatever is happening in these other European countries that locked down, based on historical precedent and the fact they've been open the whole time and therefore likely had more spread so far than these locked-down countries.
And no matter how long a country locks down, it can't prevent the virus, it can only delay it. So there's no point locking down unless the hospital system is going to be overwhelmed, which, in Sweden, it never was.Frankly, what went on in Italy and NYC metro was horrific, and I'd prefer to avoid it elsewhere.
It hasn't happened anywhere else despite many places being reopened almost totally for months. NY/NJ's situation was obviously due largely to the nursing home mismanagement, as well as poor hospital quality in certain areas (Elmhurst Hospital, for example, is notoriously awful, and was in one of the hardest-hit areas). I don't know what happened in Italy considering they had to triage patients and even NYC didn't, but I know that their medical system gets overwhelmed by the seasonal flu every year, so, maybe it's just not that great.In theory, other states here could have seen what was happening with the ones that got hit early and avoided it, and that's why people are saying the states getting hit now (I agree largely fir the first time) should have been more prepared.
But they did. The case surges now are nothing compared to NYC or Italy. Don't believe the hype. (Source: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm)
Oh, and we didn't close borders with China in February, not even close,
Can you do me a favor and at least rudimentarily fact-check these assertions you keep making? Because you keep saying things that are just factually inaccurate. We did restrict travel from China in February, and were criticized for it and called racist at the time. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/us/politics/trump-super-bowl-interview-coronavirus.htmlThis is where we disagree. It seems to me that what we are doing now is what is prolonging the pandemic.
How? Can you explain exactly how you think contact tracing and quarantining is going to eliminate the virus, as opposed to just delaying its spread?I am not saying any of the things you are arguing against.
I never said you were.Cases will die down again, as they did before. They are quite low compared with ours, and especially look at deaths per capita.
Ok, so it dies down again, and then what? Everything reopens, cases go up, everything closes, repeat ad infinitum? That's the strategy? If so, what is the end game?No one is demanding 100% effectiveness.
Apparently they are, if entire countries are being shut down over a few hundred cases, and people are demanding shutdown until a vaccine and "if it saves only one life!" Do you think these "shut everything until a vaccine" people are going to accept "oh, wait, the vaccine is only 50 or 70% effective"?Schools being reopened in the US in a lot of places would probably lead to more community spread (that was an issue in Israel) because of the number of cases we currently have. And if they lead to even school-focused (students and teachers) outbreaks, the schools will be in a pattern of opening and closing, which is not helpful. I think it is important for schools to be open, as I am worried about the students not getting an education (or showing up at all), which is a problem in my local school district, but with the number of cases we have I don't think they would stay open, and I think we would have a spike. (The most recent studies seem to indicate that earlier beliefs that kids don't spread it are probably wrong.)
The question is, what is the tradeoff between leaving things open and possibly having a few deaths, and the longer-term health consequences of keeping schools closed? That's a controversial question but that's what officials have to ask. In the H1N1 pandemic, people died as a result of schools being open (someone at my college even did), and yet they mostly stayed open with only a few short-term, localized closures. Now it's considered to be anathema to even bring up the question. Also, it's important to note that countries that left schools open, like Sweden, didn't have much spread within schools. Norway's public health minister stated that she regretted not leaving the schools open and closed them out of "fear."But AU actually followed a different path than we did and so didn't have to close schools, etc. The idea that they have been living under this horribly oppressive regime all this time and stuck in their houses since March is really inaccurate.
When did I ever say they were living under lockdown since March? The lockdown they're living under now is horribly oppressive, but, no, it hasn't been going on since MARCH and I never said it did. However, I doubt they will be out of it anytime soon.Also, where I am and where you are, re-opening after two weeks would have likely resulted in hospitals being overwhelmed. My city/state flattened the curve and therefore we didn't end up having the problem with hospital/ICU space it initially looked like we might. But that process was not accomplished after 2 weeks, we weren't to the top of the curve until much later.
Then why did they tell people it was two weeks, when it was obvious to anyone with a brain that it was going to be longer?
In the NYC area we could have probably reopened in May or June and been fine. Meanwhile we still aren't reopened fully.
2 -
I wear one where it is required and I always bring one with me. If I am going to be around a small group of people I ask what they all prefer. If even one person requests I wear the mask I will out of respect for them. I don't judge because I don't know everyone's situation so I just try to be respectful. However I refuse to wear one while hiking, mountain biking or doing any outdoor activities because that's just ridiculous.5
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janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
^^ I agree with this comment 100%.
I work in retail, unfortunately. I'm around hundreds of people during the week.
The people I've seen who refuse to wear masks claim medical issues like asthma, or they just plain refuse to wear a mask for 15-20 minutes. We have a state mandate that requires masks in all businesses, but some people don't care. I feel maskless people should be refused entry. If you have a medical issue, wear a face shield instead or have somebody else shop for you.
From my own experience, people refuse to wear masks because of denial and willful ignorance:
(1) People who won't read or listen to doctors and other qualified experts who say the masks DO reduce the droplets that carry the virus we expel when we talk, cough, and breathe -- and reduce what we breathe in when those droplets are still in the air. These qualified experts are on all the major news sites and channels, so there's no excuse for saying you don't know.
(2) Many people, especially young people, refuse to believe there's a serious pandemic going on. Their own grandmother hasn't come down with the disease, so it can't be real. People don't want to make small changes to their way of life.
OR people who say the economy is suffering, so the virus must be overblown -- these people are incapable of looking at a complicated issue that involves suffering with no easy fix.
(3) And plain old extreme selfishness -- many people only care about themselves. They're not sick, so that's the bottom line. They're too ignorant to know they could be asymptomatic and spread the disease, and they don't care as long as they can keep doing the things they enjoy.14
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