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Height-ism?
Replies
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So, I had heard this was a thing, but had not encountered it myself until recently.
A couple of months ago, I decided to dip my toe into the world of online dating. And it didn't take long to see women's profiles where height isn't just a preference, but an absolute (dis)qualifier ("Under 5'10", do not message"; "Must be tall"; "No one under 6' please" etc.).
This strikes me as odd. I could never and would never write something like "BMI < 25 only." And yet, height is completely out of a person's control, whereas weight is not.
I understand we all have preferences. I have preferences. But I like to think none of my preferences are absolute, binary statements. As in, I would never date this particular person because of this one characteristic. I might prefer a slim person, yet I married an overweight person -- because she was funny, smart, creative - basically she checked almost all my boxes, and I try to look at a person in their totality. To put it another way, I might be attracted to X, but that doesn't rule out Y or Z.
In my own profile, I try to imply my preferences rather than lead with them ("looking for someone to go on runs with me..."). I think this is much better.
And I assure you, I write all of this without bitterness. It's more a curiosity of why this form of discrimination is seemingly socially acceptable. Or at least, acceptable in the dimension of online dating.
It goes both ways. Short guys and tall girls...
Not true for everyone of course. But I've heard enough complaints.0 -
I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.1
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I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
Are there any studies or statistics on this? What happens to all the short men or tall women out there?
If gay men all prefer partners taller than them, what finally happens to the taller one in the partnership??7 -
I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
It hardly seems necessary for it to be a genetic predisposition in the vast majority of women, given that women on average are shorter than men.
ETA: I'm almost smack dab exactly average height for a woman in the U.S. I rarely meet an adult male who is shorter than me.4 -
I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
. . . and to add to Lynn's comment, why is it only the women who in your view are "genetically programmed"? It's been pretty clear from some women who've commented in the thread that at least some men don't appreciate dating a woman who's taller than they are. If there's "genetic programming", it could be symmetric, with very short men and very tall women both more likely to be left out in the cold, amongst the hetero set.
(But I have no relevant personal experienced, being midsized. While I can recall feeling attraction to men shorter than I, I don't remember whether it'ss ever gone beyond that; and the guy I was married to was taller than me, though I don't recall that having been one of my selection criteria. (I was nice to have someone around to reach stuff from tall shelves, though.)5 -
I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.1 -
psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...1 -
I will add that in a previous post I talked about tournament species vs pair bonding species. In a tournament species, we see much larger Males compared to females. Most likely dt size showing superior genetics and the ability to defend a groups of females. In pair bonding, both male and females are roughly the same size. Humans are an little different. We are mostly pair bonding, but still caring some of the traits of a tournament species particularly because men tend to be larger than women. So, is there a sexual selection for taller men. I think so. The biggest selection bias for pair bonding tends to be resources and child rearing capabilities mostly, there is an high rate of cuckolding in pair bonding that we dont see in tournament species. This could be females trying to make sure they are getting the best genetics for their offspring. Men might stray because of the part of us that are tournament species. Looking for maximum chance of our offspring living. This does not excuse adulatory. We do have rational brains.janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.0 -
psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...
I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...
I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.
Even if attractiveness "standards" change, we still see general associations of what men and women look at.0 -
I think society as a whole is taller because we have more cathedral ceilings on the whole.
Back when they had tiny sod houses, it would be better to be small so it would be easier to move around in that tiny dwelling.
Now that houses have 8 foot ceilings, we can grow tall ... And now that we have multi thousand square foot homes, we can be wider too! Lol8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...
I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.
These aren't things that are operating at the conscious attraction level of "oooh he/she is hot", these are mate selection criteria that are biologically driven -- produce lots of offspring with higher chances of survival.
As far as I recall, the waist-hip ratio study was repeated 10? 20? years later and it was still the main criteria for female attractiveness but the ratio had decreased slightly. Again, this was not something identified by the subjects themselves, it was a variable derived from statistical analysis of the results. All the men did was choose between pictures.1 -
Yep, this has always bothered me as well. Weight is much easier to control, but I get a lot of hate if I say I want someone to be fit. However, it's perfectly acceptable for women to say they won't date a man under a specified height. Why the double standard? Either we all have physical preferences and that is alright or we are scum if we won't date someone that doesn't meet a particular physical standard. Why would it be one way for men and different for women?1
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janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I truly believe that the vast majority of women are genetically programmed to not date men shorter than them. The proportion of male/female couples where the man is shorter than the woman is so small, much smaller than if random mixing occurred. Which begs the inevitable question: how do lesbians cope? Anyway, I happened to read a paper and it says that gay men prefer a partner who is slightly taller than them.
I have no idea why we're going with the idea that women are "genetically programmed" (yuck, by the way!) here. Why isn't it that men are "genetically programmed" to be attracted to women who are shorter than them?
If the relevant data you have on height preferences involves gay men, this would tend to support the thesis that MALE desires that are potentially relevant here too. Given that only one man can be taller than the other in a gay relationship, why aren't you wondering how they're coping instead of lesbians given that there is no data that lesbians even HAVE height preferences (which kind of knocks the women are "genetically programmed" theory into the water).
I think there might be something to that notion, although I'd say "biologically predisposed" over genetically programmed.
I remember reading something (long ago) about studies showing men seemed hardwired to subconsciously judge female attractiveness based on waist-hip ratio, which had something to do with indicating childbearing potential. Women likely have similar wiring to select mates for height, which should produce taller offspring, probably with higher chance of survival.
So there's biological programming in both sexes, just for different criteria. Both based on reproduction, however. Survival of the species and all that.
I have less objection to the idea that people are generally predisposed to prefer certain traits (with a wide latitude for normal human variations) than the statement that women are somehow "genetically programmed." It just sounds very demeaning.
There has to be an evolutionary advantage for people getting taller. Why would an species decide to create more animals that require more calories to survive. So, I assert that there could be a sexual preference in women for taller men. Life is turning calories into kids.
** edit** I read your post wrong and had to correct myself.
I'm not arguing that sexual preferences don't exist, I just bristle at attributing them exclusively to women (why can't it also be the fact that men may also prefer women who are smaller than them?) and using terms like "programming," which seem awfully dehumanizing.
Programmed is a great word to use imho. What else is the brain but a giant super computer? It's making many calculations all at once and directing our actions. I think there are certain things a man is programmed to look at in a mate physically. The Paleolithic Venus statues are great examples. They are thought to be fertility totems. They are over exaggerations of things a man looks at in a potential mate. Large hips, buttocks, breast, and stomach. In the times of our ancient ancestors, a women who had these characteristics was more likely to be able to carry a child to term in times when food availability was uncertain. There are reasons why women may choose to exaggerate certain body features. Aka... push up bras, high heels, high waisted pants. They may think they are "doing it for themselves", but it's an old brain response. We have the old brain and the new brain. The neocortex is the high brain. It makes rational decision making selections. Then we have the old brain. Basically our subconscious. It drives us to do certain things that we rationalize with the new brain. When a man's eye shoots to a gal in tight pants rear end, it's an old brain response. Now that doe not excuse staring because that Is a rational choice. The initial look... all old brain. So, yes WE ARE programmed...
I don't know that we're that far apart, I just think that "programmed" is a stronger word than I would use. I would go with "generally attracted to." And even within the context of saying that men *tend* to be attracted to certain features in women (at least the men who are attracted to women) and that women *tend* to be attracted to certain features in me (at least the women who are attracted to men), I think we can all think of people who are indifferent to relatively popular features. And we also have examples of how standards of attractiveness fluctuate over time, both of which are not what we would expect to see if we were literally programmed to find certain things attractive.
These aren't things that are operating at the conscious attraction level of "oooh he/she is hot", these are mate selection criteria that are biologically driven -- produce lots of offspring with higher chances of survival.
As far as I recall, the waist-hip ratio study was repeated 10? 20? years later and it was still the main criteria for female attractiveness but the ratio had decreased slightly. Again, this was not something identified by the subjects themselves, it was a variable derived from statistical analysis of the results. All the men did was choose between pictures.
I'm not arguing that our decisions about who and who isn't attractive are operating at the conscious level, I'm arguing that it is more complicated than women being programmed to choose tall men. The truth is that many women do find size to be appealing, but there are also women for whom it is irrelevant and women who are able to prioritize other things than height.
I'm not arguing against the waist-hip ratio study either. I would argue that choosing which picture one finds more attractive is worlds away from the complex and sometimes lengthy process of choosing a long-term mate, the subject of the OP. The person I find abstractly most attractive may or may not be my choice for a dating partner, sexual companion, or mate.8 -
I'm following this discussion but am wondering...
In these arguments, what is defined as tall?
Is it taller the the other person, or is it taller than average but not necessarily taller than the other person?
There is a difference between preferring someone who is taller than you (ie woman is 5' and partner is 5'2) vs preferring someone who is 6'3" regardless of how tall you are.3 -
T1DCarnivoreRunner wrote: »Yep, this has always bothered me as well. Weight is much easier to control, but I get a lot of hate if I say I want someone to be fit. However, it's perfectly acceptable for women to say they won't date a man under a specified height. Why the double standard? Either we all have physical preferences and that is alright or we are scum if we won't date someone that doesn't meet a particular physical standard. Why would it be one way for men and different for women?
"Fit" as in performance level is something different than weight, but I think both could be legitimate preferences for a mate -- either for men or women. Is someone arguing that women should have the option to screen partners for height and weight, but men shouldn't? Or that nobody should be screening for weight? I'm trying to understand where the double standard comes in between men and women, because women are absolutely screening for weight in partners, both online and in real life situations.1
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