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COVID19 - To Vaccinate or To Not Vaccinate
Replies
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frecklesandkale wrote: »I had COVID-19 in January.
(Age 29/female) - 2 weeks of bedrest and feeling horrible.
Based on the fact that I recently had it and I am not in a high-risk group, I will be waiting to decide whether or not I will get it. Currently leaning towards....no. Let me explain!
Many women my age are hesitant due to the lack of info regarding the longterm effects the vax could have on fertility/pregnancies/newborns who are breast-feeding, etc. Anyone know any recent studies on this? Many Australian virologists are urging women in their child-bearing years to refrain from receiving it.
...<snip>...
It seems unrealistic for scientists to suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for women longterm when we haven't even seen it run its course for a year yet.
Sadly, we cannot even freely discuss it without being labeled ANTI-VAX. We aren't allowed to ask questions. What a world.
P.S. We just want more info. Don't cancel me! Let's discuss it.
Would you know or have easy access to one or two names of Australian virologists who are saying women of child bearing age shouldn't get any of the covid vaccines? I've heard nothing like that and a googling turned up nothing and I'd like to research it.
I am guessing the "many Australian virologists" come from an anti-vax site. This has already been debunked.
https://www.aap.com.au/covid-19-vaccine-whistleblower-information-sounds-a-lot-like-an-unrelated-study-from-1989/7 -
healthyhannah__ wrote: »I am a nurse and received the vaccine last week.
To say I was not hesitant would be a lie. Many nurses in my department has similar concerns. Luckily we were assured that all was well, but not everyone has access to medical journals like we do.
Most people just have Google, which we all know can be dangerous. People forget how powerful online articles and word-of-mouth can be. I have had several women recently inquire about the vaccine in regards to fertility. Many have declined it for now. This is an ongoing issue.
While most claims continue to be debunked, you really cannot blame young people for thinking twice.
This is coming from someone who fully supports the Covid-19 vaccine.
I believe @kermit124 was attempting to address claims that they heard, which is a quality I see in many patients. I feel like they are being brought down for having these concerns, which is equally ineffective.
The rumors with Gardasil are still ongoing for their demographic. Once the word got out that there "could be a link between the HPV vaccine and fertility" it spread like wildfire. I believe @kermit124 was laying out those articles to show which information their generation has been receiving. I have seen one of those articles shared on Instagram recently. I hate to say it, but it is true. They are really being told that they might not be able to have children. I don't think reprimanding them for their concerns is productive, but I also am used to hearing this.
Allow room for this conversation to happen since many of you may be hearing similar thoughts from your young loved ones looking to conceive.
It's a tough time in this world of over-information to sift out fact and fiction. Let's work together with grace!!!
Without getting into language that would violate the site rules, I don’t know what is wrong with people, but it’s clear from the past several years that polite conversation isn’t helping, and in fact seems to facilitate the spread of the poison. People who have deliberately detached themselves from scientific authority and attached themselves to crazy rumor-mongering and conspiracy theories are not just theoretically dangerous, they are actually dangerous.
I also find someone saying they “are just a young person thinking about starting a family who wants input” to be ingenuous. A person of normal intelligence, functioning normally, who really felt that way would be asking a doctor about her fertility, not trying to spread rumors online.
My husband had this sort of conversation with his father recently and had to tell him that if he didn’t stop being ridiculous (he is in his 80s, a lung cancer survivor with very little lung left, and would almost certainly die if he got Covid) and get the vaccine, he was not going to visit him. I have another friend who had to tell her mother - who is an RN and currently a nurse for terminally ill children! - that if she didn’t lay off the QAnon and get the vaccine, she was certainly not welcome to travel out of state to see her grandchildren.
The situation is scary, and pretending that these unfounded, nonsensical “concerns” are based in normal thinking or are a form of normal behavior is not something I’m going to do. The people doing it need to be aware that it’s dangerous and they are hurting people, just like someone who goes out drunk driving every day needs to be stopped.25 -
Source - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56440139
A review by the EU's medicines regulator has concluded the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine is "safe and effective".
The European Medicines Agency (EMA) investigated after 13 EU states suspended use of the vaccine over fears of a link to blood clots.
It found the jab was "not associated" with a higher risk of clots.
Still can't get my head around why so many EU states that are in a desperate situation of rising infection rates are so keen to suspend one of the key vaccines when no causal link was indicated.7 -
Source - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56440139
A review by the EU's medicines regulator has concluded the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine is "safe and effective".
The European Medicines Agency (EMA) investigated after 13 EU states suspended use of the vaccine over fears of a link to blood clots.
It found the jab was "not associated" with a higher risk of clots.
Still can't get my head around why so many EU states that are in a desperate situation of rising infection rates are so keen to suspend one of the key vaccines when no causal link was indicated.
Same here. I just don't get the pile on. A simple comparison of incidence rates between vaccine recipients & gen pop makes it almost impossible for the vaccine to be responsible, and that's without any sophisticated inquiry. And the start-then-stop, safe-questionable-safe messaging.... I just don't get it. Seems so harmful.3 -
Apparently they've been believing their facebook feeds too. So now facebook is doing their survey to determine how much conspiracy stuff they'll allow on their platform. Such a slippery slope.
The internet has really made us question reality in ways we never have been able to before. Maybe we need a new topic/new thread going down that rabbit hole.
I mean, it's a free-for-all for every whackadoo opinion and no one source is immune to over-reacting it seems.
5 -
As to the concern that the vaccines were created so quickly... The long timeline typical for vaccine development isn't spent creating the vaccine, it's spent getting money and permissions to conduct trials and ramp up production. Most of the years involved are spent applying for and waiting for grants, and applying for and waiting for authorizations. Because the entire world was on hold, money was thrown at any research and trials immediately, and requests for permissions were moved to the front of the line. The corners cut were mostly bureaucratic, though the trial times were shortened a little.
The technology and ingredients in the mRNA vaccines have been worked on for years, they were just waiting for someone with deep pockets willing to pay for the final steps. And the J&J vaccine is basically the ebola vaccine they have been administering for a decade, with the virus protein (I think I'm using the right term there) switched out. Both are the culmination of years of work, not hastily thrown together experiments.
Work on the COVID-19 vaccine began in 2003 during the first SARS outbreak. That's how they knew to target the spike protein this time around.12 -
rheddmobile wrote: »healthyhannah__ wrote: »I am a nurse and received the vaccine last week.
To say I was not hesitant would be a lie. Many nurses in my department has similar concerns. Luckily we were assured that all was well, but not everyone has access to medical journals like we do.
Most people just have Google, which we all know can be dangerous. People forget how powerful online articles and word-of-mouth can be. I have had several women recently inquire about the vaccine in regards to fertility. Many have declined it for now. This is an ongoing issue.
While most claims continue to be debunked, you really cannot blame young people for thinking twice.
This is coming from someone who fully supports the Covid-19 vaccine.
I believe @kermit124 was attempting to address claims that they heard, which is a quality I see in many patients. I feel like they are being brought down for having these concerns, which is equally ineffective.
The rumors with Gardasil are still ongoing for their demographic. Once the word got out that there "could be a link between the HPV vaccine and fertility" it spread like wildfire. I believe @kermit124 was laying out those articles to show which information their generation has been receiving. I have seen one of those articles shared on Instagram recently. I hate to say it, but it is true. They are really being told that they might not be able to have children. I don't think reprimanding them for their concerns is productive, but I also am used to hearing this.
Allow room for this conversation to happen since many of you may be hearing similar thoughts from your young loved ones looking to conceive.
It's a tough time in this world of over-information to sift out fact and fiction. Let's work together with grace!!!
Without getting into language that would violate the site rules, I don’t know what is wrong with people, but it’s clear from the past several years that polite conversation isn’t helping, and in fact seems to facilitate the spread of the poison. People who have deliberately detached themselves from scientific authority and attached themselves to crazy rumor-mongering and conspiracy theories are not just theoretically dangerous, they are actually dangerous.
I also find someone saying they “are just a young person thinking about starting a family who wants input” to be ingenuous. A person of normal intelligence, functioning normally, who really felt that way would be asking a doctor about her fertility, not trying to spread rumors online.
My husband had this sort of conversation with his father recently and had to tell him that if he didn’t stop being ridiculous (he is in his 80s, a lung cancer survivor with very little lung left, and would almost certainly die if he got Covid) and get the vaccine, he was not going to visit him. I have another friend who had to tell her mother - who is an RN and currently a nurse for terminally ill children! - that if she didn’t lay off the QAnon and get the vaccine, she was certainly not welcome to travel out of state to see her grandchildren.
The situation is scary, and pretending that these unfounded, nonsensical “concerns” are based in normal thinking or are a form of normal behavior is not something I’m going to do. The people doing it need to be aware that it’s dangerous and they are hurting people, just like someone who goes out drunk driving every day needs to be stopped.
I think the current drop in childhood vaccination rates due to unfounded concerns about autism really demonstrates that simply pointing out that a claim is evidence-free or even contradicted by current evidence doesn't do much to slow it down.
You're right that the whole "just asking questions" thing is too often bogus.11 -
healthyhannah__ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »healthyhannah__ wrote: »
I'm not sure what you mean by "allow room for this conversation to happen." The conversation WAS happening. People responded to the inaccurate information with accurate information. Allowing a conversation to happen doesn't require validating fears that are not grounded in reality. In instances where there is no information to support a particular set of claims, that can and should be pointed out.
I don't think anyone is denying that anti-vax information isn't out there and it isn't causing some people to avoid medical treatments that will save lives. We obviously know it is out there and we know that people are being harmed by it. It's obvious that people are being told stuff like this.
I just skimmed the thread and from the replies I thought Kermit was telling people to not get the vaccine.
She was suggesting it was not safe or that people who might otherwise get the vaccine should be concerned that it is unsafe: "It seems unrealistic for scientists to suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for women longterm when we haven't even seen it run its course for a year yet."
Also, the "just asking question" thing is a very common approach to anti vax arguments, as is the "these other people say" or "experts claim" (with no legitimate supporting evidence provided) or the like, and those were all present.
I am curious about who these AU researchers are, as that seems somewhat specific. Not that I really care. My own problem is that I would like to get vaccinated and probably won't even have the opportunity for some time. If people are trying to push the vaccine on Kermit, she can give hers to me (yes, I know that's not possible).11 -
As to the concern that the vaccines were created so quickly... The long timeline typical for vaccine development isn't spent creating the vaccine, it's spent getting money and permissions to conduct trials and ramp up production. Most of the years involved are spent applying for and waiting for grants, and applying for and waiting for authorizations. Because the entire world was on hold, money was thrown at any research and trials immediately, and requests for permissions were moved to the front of the line. The corners cut were mostly bureaucratic, though the trial times were shortened a little.
The technology and ingredients in the mRNA vaccines have been worked on for years, they were just waiting for someone with deep pockets willing to pay for the final steps. And the J&J vaccine is basically the ebola vaccine they have been administering for a decade, with the virus protein (I think I'm using the right term there) switched out. Both are the culmination of years of work, not hastily thrown together experiments.
This is something that I'm surprised more people aren't aware of. Not only have mRNA vaccines been worked on for years, all kinds of vaccine research for various things is continuously ongoing...and a lot comes down to $$$ for funding.
I have a high school friend who works on this kind of stuff in Chicago (I think that's where he is now...he always seems to be moving around)...I remember when people first started talking about the vaccine and how it could take years and he was like, "nah...we have the science...we just don't have the money."15 -
healthyhannah__ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »healthyhannah__ wrote: »
I'm not sure what you mean by "allow room for this conversation to happen." The conversation WAS happening. People responded to the inaccurate information with accurate information. Allowing a conversation to happen doesn't require validating fears that are not grounded in reality. In instances where there is no information to support a particular set of claims, that can and should be pointed out.
I don't think anyone is denying that anti-vax information isn't out there and it isn't causing some people to avoid medical treatments that will save lives. We obviously know it is out there and we know that people are being harmed by it. It's obvious that people are being told stuff like this.
I just skimmed the thread and from the replies I thought Kermit was telling people to not get the vaccine.
She was suggesting it was not safe or that people who might otherwise get the vaccine should be concerned that it is unsafe: "It seems unrealistic for scientists to suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for women longterm when we haven't even seen it run its course for a year yet."
Also, the "just asking question" thing is a very common approach to anti vax arguments, as is the "these other people say" or "experts claim" (with no legitimate supporting evidence provided) or the like, and those were all present.
I am curious about who these AU researchers are, as that seems somewhat specific. Not that I really care. My own problem is that I would like to get vaccinated and probably won't even have the opportunity for some time. If people are trying to push the vaccine on Kermit, she can give hers to me (yes, I know that's not possible).
IMO, someone who is telling others that "many" unnamed experts are recommending a certain course of action is going beyond "just asking questions."11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »healthyhannah__ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »healthyhannah__ wrote: »
I'm not sure what you mean by "allow room for this conversation to happen." The conversation WAS happening. People responded to the inaccurate information with accurate information. Allowing a conversation to happen doesn't require validating fears that are not grounded in reality. In instances where there is no information to support a particular set of claims, that can and should be pointed out.
I don't think anyone is denying that anti-vax information isn't out there and it isn't causing some people to avoid medical treatments that will save lives. We obviously know it is out there and we know that people are being harmed by it. It's obvious that people are being told stuff like this.
I just skimmed the thread and from the replies I thought Kermit was telling people to not get the vaccine.
She was suggesting it was not safe or that people who might otherwise get the vaccine should be concerned that it is unsafe: "It seems unrealistic for scientists to suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for women longterm when we haven't even seen it run its course for a year yet."
Also, the "just asking question" thing is a very common approach to anti vax arguments, as is the "these other people say" or "experts claim" (with no legitimate supporting evidence provided) or the like, and those were all present.
I am curious about who these AU researchers are, as that seems somewhat specific. Not that I really care. My own problem is that I would like to get vaccinated and probably won't even have the opportunity for some time. If people are trying to push the vaccine on Kermit, she can give hers to me (yes, I know that's not possible).
IMO, someone who is telling others that "many" unnamed experts are recommending a certain course of action is going beyond "just asking questions."
This is true too.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »As to the concern that the vaccines were created so quickly... The long timeline typical for vaccine development isn't spent creating the vaccine, it's spent getting money and permissions to conduct trials and ramp up production. Most of the years involved are spent applying for and waiting for grants, and applying for and waiting for authorizations. Because the entire world was on hold, money was thrown at any research and trials immediately, and requests for permissions were moved to the front of the line. The corners cut were mostly bureaucratic, though the trial times were shortened a little.
The technology and ingredients in the mRNA vaccines have been worked on for years, they were just waiting for someone with deep pockets willing to pay for the final steps. And the J&J vaccine is basically the ebola vaccine they have been administering for a decade, with the virus protein (I think I'm using the right term there) switched out. Both are the culmination of years of work, not hastily thrown together experiments.
This is something that I'm surprised more people aren't aware of. Not only have mRNA vaccines been worked on for years, all kinds of vaccine research for various things is continuously ongoing...and a lot comes down to $$$ for funding.
I have a high school friend who works on this kind of stuff in Chicago (I think that's where he is now...he always seems to be moving around)...I remember when people first started talking about the vaccine and how it could take years and he was like, "nah...we have the science...we just don't have the money."
I know you know this, Wolfman, but I’m commenting for the general conversation.
Another factor in the speed of the Covid trials is that there’s so much infection in so many places, i.e., it’s a pandemic.
Normally, a vaccine goes through some safety testing in vitro (tested on cells in dishes) or something of that nature, then small-scale safety tests on humans. The large scale tests are mainly for effectiveness.
At that stage, many people sign up for the trial, and they’re split in two groups. One group gets the vaccine, the other gets the placebo (looks the same, even the people giving the shot don’t know which is which).
Then the researchers have to wait until there are enough cases in the trial group to see that there’s a statistically significant difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated subgroups, in infection, severity or both.
If the vaccine is for a virus that’s uncommon or geographically unpredictable, that can take a really long time of waiting and monitoring. With Covid, in a pandemic, there are enough cases in enough places that the cases stack up quickly, so statistically significant differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated subgroups show up much faster.
There are multiple reasons this vaccine has been fast: New mRNA technology (years in the making), scientists in adjacent fields getting involved in development and dropping their other work to do so, international collaboration between companies that usually compete and keep secrets, vast infusions of money, and the differences in the trial speed because it's a pandemic . . . among others, probably.
IMO, all this costs us is the possibility of finding out about really tiny, specialized bad reactions in sub-populations (small numbers of unusual people), or very long term side effects. It's not common for vaccines to have long term side effects - highly unusual, in fact. But we do have indications that the disease itself will have long-term side effects, and higher mortality for some fairly common subgroups (elderly, diabetic, etc.). We're balancing what is believed to be a small risk (long term or unknown small-group consequences of vaccine), with a much bigger risk (long term and moderate-sized group consequences of the disease)..10 -
cmriverside wrote: »
I mean, it's a free-for-all for every whackadoo opinion and no one source is immune to over-reacting it seems.
Sadly, yes.
When I first got exposed to the internet (roughly 1998ish) my impression was that it was a giant platform for selling stuff, and for convincing people to buy stuff they didn't know they needed if they weren't already looking for it. It's only gone downhill since then, IMO.
I have a very good former friend who went full rabbit hole last year. There were some pre-existing tendencies that found ample fertilizer on the internet and my friend came completely unhinged.5 -
5
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I am curious, how do you convince someone who refuses to get the vaccine, because they believe “it really isn’t a vaccine”? Not me, I am fully vaccinated.1
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RetiredAndLovingIt wrote: »I am curious, how do you convince someone who refuses to get the vaccine, because they believe “it really isn’t a vaccine”? Not me, I am fully vaccinated.
Why bother trying to convince anyone? There isn’t enough to go around, let someone who wants it have it.7 -
With all the talk about vaccine safety in pregnant women, I thought that this was good news and a good link to share.
First baby in U.S. born with antibodies against COVID-19 after mom receives dose of Moderna vaccine while pregnant - CBS News
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-moderna-baby-born-antibodies/8 -
I had COVID-19 in January.
(Age 29/female) - 2 weeks of bedrest and feeling horrible.
Based on the fact that I recently had it and I am not in a high-risk group, I will be waiting to decide whether or not I will get it. Currently leaning towards....no. Let me explain!
Many women my age are hesitant due to the lack of info regarding the longterm effects the vax could have on fertility/pregnancies/newborns who are breast-feeding, etc. Anyone know any recent studies on this? Many Australian virologists are urging women in their child-bearing years to refrain from receiving it.
I have talked to about 20 women ages 25-32 and none of them plan on getting the vax. Keep in mind we are the generation that was pressured to get the Gardisal vaccine during our teens. We received them in gym class in 9th grade. Three painful shots to prevent HPV.
10-12 years later there are multiple studies on its link to infertility, etc. We are a worried bunch!
https://vaccineimpact.com/2018/study-hpv-gardasil-vaccine-linked-to-decline-in-fertility-rates-in-u-s-women-aged-25-29/
https://pregnant.sg/articles/link-between-hpv-vaccine-and-infertility/
https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/prescription-drugs/gardasil-lawsuit/gardasil-deaths/
I have 2 great friends that received Gardisal in 2008-2009 and have not been able to conceive. This was a vaccine that was HIGHLY encouraged by the CDC for all teens.
It seems unrealistic for scientists to suggest that the COVID-19 vaccine is safe for women longterm when we haven't even seen it run its course for a year yet.
Sadly, we cannot even freely discuss it without being labeled ANTI-VAX. We aren't allowed to ask questions. What a world.
P.S. We just want more info. Don't cancel me! Let's discuss it.
None of those "articles" are peer reviewed articles. The link is tenuous at best, and correlation does not mean causation.
HPV can, and often does, cause cervical cancer. My kids are definitely getting the vaccine.10 -
cmriverside wrote: »I am super surprised for instance that @Theo166 didn't have the basic understanding of the mRNA vaccine technology until yesterday. This thing (Covid) has stopped the world in its tracks and will affect the world's economy (i.e. YOU) for the next ten years minimum ....and people haven't taken an hour or so of their past year's isolation to learn about this vaccine? It's mind-boggling to me.
As far as the HPV vac, at least you have to have sex to catch it so there is some personal control. The SARS virus(es) are way too easily transmitted for us to be safe without a majority being vaccinated.
The anti-vaxx crap sadly doesn't surprise me even though I think it's a very dangerous stance - for all of us. I mean, people believe all kinds of scary stuff. Or are they just trolling us in a long game?
My uncle used to say, "Well, it will thin the herd."
I don't get your faux outrage at me, didn't you read my post?
- I already had COVID so I didn't really need the vaccine urgently. I was donating plasma for COVID therapy up to Jan, so I knew I still had some protection. I read up on everything related to treatment before I got COVID (well before vaccines were coming out), but after I recovered it was no longer a priority.
- My friends and family are pro-vaccine, no need to second guess the intricoes of the various vaccines being developed.
maybe you should reflect on your anger before posting.3 -
If the facts behind this story are correct, this is why the vaccine is important/necessary https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/triplets-orphaned-as-mum-dies-from-covid-dad-killed-in-car-crash/news-story/f87f771619228401707387dece7715050
This discussion has been closed.
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