I find myself becoming very judgemental

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Replies

  • Dimplybutt
    Dimplybutt Posts: 123 Member
    It must be exhausting for some of you worrying about other peoples' lives, trying to get them to live how you think they should live, trying to get them to look how you feel they should look, trying to get them to think how you think, etc...

    ^ ^ This ^ ^
  • ItsMeRebekah
    ItsMeRebekah Posts: 909 Member
    Okay, I'm sorry, some of the replies here are really pissing me off. I have been extremely heavy, and I'm still moderately heavy, and I have had to deal with a ton of crap from people in public.

    It is impossible to tell from looking at someone what their lifestyle is. Even when I was at my heaviest (300+ lbs) I still worked out and tried to eat healthy--I was a vegan! I have a medical condition and am on medication that makes weight loss almost impossible (which is why my doctor recommended a gastric bypass, which helped but didn't magically fix). When moving hurt, I still made time to exercise in a healthy way, and I was able to keep my blood pressure and sugar levels in a good range (a better indicator of health than pant size). Weight is incredibly complex...experts and studies confirm that it is so, so much more than "eat less/exercise more." Genetics, medication, health conditions, and past lifestyle choices all play a huge part. And heavy people have often been on many, many diets...most of which, studies show, fail, and then cause excessive weight gain and slow metabolism later in life. The assumption that someone who is overweight doesn't take care of themselves, or if they just worked at it they could lose weight, is FALSE and fed by our weight-obsessed society.

    Class and money play a huge role. Have you ever tried eating a healthy diet on food stamps? It's almost impossible. My mother tried to feed a family of six on a food budget of a couple hundred dollars...she would have loved to have fresh fruits and veggies in the house, but when a package of Top Ramen is cheaper than an apple, and will actually satisfy the hunger of her children (an apple is a great snack, but doesn't cut it for dinner), she'll chose the item that doesn't make her kids go to bed starving. Processed food is terrible for you and causes weight gain, but that's what poor people buy, because a) it's cheaper, b) it lasts, and c) it's quick to make, and when you're working 2-3 jobs (as my mom was), you don't have time to cook healthy dinners. So please don't judge the mom whose shopping cart is filled with items you personally disapprove of; you have no idea what they're going through.

    And you really don't know what someone's lifestyle is like based on a quick glance in the grocery store. A couple years ago, my mom sent me the store to pick up candy and other desserts for a church party that eveneing. While standing in line, the person in front turned around and sneered, "You'll never lose weight if you keep eating like that." Well, considering the food all had milk in it, I wasn't planning on eating ANY of it. And she seriously thought I was gonna take 15 bags of candy home to eat? Is that really what people think fat folks do, sit around all day eating bags of candy?

    When I was the low girl on the work totem pole, my boss sent me out to get food from Costco for everyone. So I was getting several hotdogs and snacky things. When I was walking back, a woman said, "No wonder you're fat." Yeah, like I was gonna eat four hotdogs on my own, and anyway, it's none of her business! I was a lot less confident then, so I was in tears by the time I got back to work, and told my boss I couldn't do the food runs anymore (she was pissed on my behalf and totally agreed...they never made me go again). I was so hurt. It takes courage to go out and try to be happy when you're very heavy, and it just takes a little comment, someone reminding you that to the rest of the world you're hideous, to make you want to go home and slit your wrists or never go outside again.

    I have on several occassions been used by mothers to fat-shame their children. It's horrible on two levels...1) because they're talking about me like I'm disgusting and the worst thing someone could be, which is SO dehumanizing and hurtful, and 2) because they are using me to scare and shame their daughters, passing on the torch of body hatred, and teaching their kids that it's okay to make rude comments about someone's weight, because FAT IS THE WORST THING EVER. Quick example: when I was a cashier, a girl was bugging her mom for M%M's. The mom said to her daughter, "Do you want to end up fat like HER?" (pointing at me). I quickly finished ringing her up, then had to take a break because I started crying. (I'm a lot tougher now, but I used to be more sensetive about my weight.) This is just one example of many over the years.

    It's the reason I always made my little sister get her own popcorn at the theatre...she (skinny girl that she is) likes a lot of extra butter. I told her that I just can't deal with the looks (if not the comments) that I get as a fat girl ordering extra butter. It hurts; I'm not going to put myself in that position. Or if I was celebrating a special occassion or was at a restruant I really liked and wanted a dessert...sometimes I just didn't order (or made my mom or friend order) because I couldn't stand the looks I would get. People didn't know it was something I rarely did. They just assummed that, hey, fat girl orders cake=she must eat cake all day long and that's why she's big. Even if I ordered the same thing my skinny friends ordered.

    I have struggled with starving myself (worst thing you can do to lose weight; it just made me unhealthy and more fat), with self-injury (taking out my body hatred on my stomach with a knife), with depression, with social anxiety. Some of it can be traced to the terrible things people have said to me during my life. I'm stronger now, I understand that the people who say and do those things are really just ignorant and scared (they don't understand the complexity of weight loss; they are scared of gaining weight themselves). But it took a lot of therapy and education for me to get to this place, and I still struggle with disordered eating and self-injury.

    In conclusion: you don't know what someone's lifestyle is by just looking at them, and you don't know what medical conditions might be the cause of their weight. And you don't know how hurtful even your non-verbal actions can be. Get educated, and have some compassion. Pant size is a terrible indicator of someone's value as a human being.

    this gave me tears =(
  • I eat healthy but my husband has been complaining because I never buy any junk. As he says, I only buy snack food for me i.e. fruit. I got sick of hearing this and went to the grocery and bought him a pile of junk! I put it on the top pantry shelf and told him it was his shelf with his junk.
  • auticus
    auticus Posts: 1,051 Member
    this gave me tears =(

    But so true and spot on. We turn humans into bags of meat that we judge based on it's value in terms of "attraction, how it thinks like us, how it talks like us, how it looks like us" that it *is* dehumanizing, it *is* disgusting, and it *is* rehensible.

    Treating people like objects *is* rehensible. Treating people like property *is* rehensible. Judging someone's worth based on their clothing size *is* rehensible.

    In my opinion, it makes you more like a diseased animal knocking its head into a tree over and over.

    If you want to judge people off of things that you stereotype and have no real actual understanding on other than "ew that person is fat and ugly and I am terrified of becoming that/going back to that", let's go ahead and lay the one judging out on the plinth of shame as well. I guaran-effing-tee you that we can find a good dozen things to judge you back on.

    There is not a person alive that can walk around judging others and not have their own issues that could be ripped out in the open and shamed with. It just so happens that being fat is an outward visible thing.

    Being pretty on the outside is short term and fleeting. Time, disease, genetics all take their toll on a human body. And when you can't fall back on your looks anymore and only have that toxic diseased core which is 100x uglier than an obese person in the grocery store carting the ice cream around, you'll find out the true meaning of what being unhealthy is.

    Health is a combination of not just physical appearance, but your intellectual and inner core as well. You may be hot as hell on the outside and ugly and toxic as hell on the inside... except eating makeup isn't going to make you prettier there.
  • hotmama1174
    hotmama1174 Posts: 109 Member
    Don't feel bad AT ALL!!! What I have recognized is exactly what you said....it is easy to lose weight if you put your mind and effort to it...as my girlfriend says' you gotta mean it!!!'. You mean it and are dong what you need to do to be healthier and when you see people making decisions that are not what you are doing , you have the right to feel the way you do. I could go on and on about this but I will stop there!

    Keep up the good work everyone!!!
  • I concur with thebonesyouremadeof; I couldn't care less if I see an overweight adult chowing down on something less than healthy, its their choice, but I DO get really sad and a little 'judgy' when I see an entire chubber's family with vastly overweight children macking down on trash. Its like the little's don't even have a chance...

    I mean kids can have 'treats' a couple times a week, but if your kid is twice the size his age is supposed to be I'm going to need you to cut off box meals, burgers and candy, mmmkay?

    I understand some parents just don't have resources/knowledge, yada yada yada, but I know plenty of low income families who know how to make a pot of lentil chili or low fat banana bread. ::sigh::
  • kateroot
    kateroot Posts: 435
    I'm sure some of this has been said already, I haven't read the whole thread... OP, nothing is wrong with you. You've worked hard to get where you are, and you notice when people around you are of poor health. As long as you're not outwardly expressing your thoughts to these people, it's okay to have them. We all make judgments about the people around us, it's human nature.

    Rather than "judging" really overweight people, I find myself sad for them. I know how awesome it feels to be fit and healthy, and I want everyone to be able to feel that way.

    That said, try to keep in mind that a lot of people struggle with losing weight due to physical disabilities or illness. Sure, the vast majority of people could just eat healthier and exercise and their weight problems would be solved, but for some it's truly not that simple. I try to remind myself of that when I make a snap judgment about someone's appearance.
  • dlwyatt82
    dlwyatt82 Posts: 1,077 Member
    I mean kids can have 'treats' a couple times a week, but if your kid is twice the size his age is supposed to be I'm going to need you to cut off box meals, burgers and candy, mmmkay?

    That's where you'd be crossing the line. You're not wrong about the people's situation, or what's happening to the kids, but you have no business trying to impose your own will onto another family, which is what it sounds like you're referring to with that "I'm going to need you to <whatever>" comment. If some random person actually said that to me, I might wind up punching them right there in the grocery store.

    That's why I can't stand politics... bunch of self-righteous jerks telling other people how they should live their lives (on the right or the left, doesn't matter).
  • CookieCrumble
    CookieCrumble Posts: 221 Member
    i work in a grocery store and i get so annoyed when i see families come through and spend maybe £100+ (i live in the UK) on a food shop and the only fresh thing they've bought it milk! especially when you can see that the parents and the children are overweight/obese. it really grinds on me though when those same people will buy food because it has the 'weightwatchers' label on it but they are seemingly incapable of buying ANY fruit and veg at all. and when you see the same customers come in week after week after week (some of the customers i've seen for the past 4 years i've worked this job) and there has been no change, it just baffles me. if a parent wants to eat nothing but junk then that is fine, but when they are feeding the children the same food and encouraging those habits in them, i get very judgemental. and yes, i do talk to the customers so i know for a fact that they aren't simply buying fruit or veg anywhere. i mean, i am all for eating everything in moderation but i can't stop myself getting judgemental in cases like that.

    Yes, you can stop it. If you spoke to me about what was in my trolley or somebody elses, I'd report you. Mind your own business. Who the heck do you think you are?
  • tequila09
    tequila09 Posts: 764 Member
    I've always been this way but I'm not rude or anything and I'm sure people judge me for whatever reason. What really makes me sad is seeing overweight parents with very overweight children :(
  • escloflowneCHANGED
    escloflowneCHANGED Posts: 3,038 Member
    I really try not to judge because I know if I go to a fast food place and treat myself(like I earned the right to!) I will be judged the same way! I will be the fat guy getting a burger but little do they know that my diet and workout routine is better then theirs even if they are skinny.
  • FitLink
    FitLink Posts: 1,317 Member
    Don't feel bad AT ALL!!! What I have recognized is exactly what you said....it is easy to lose weight if you put your mind and effort to it...as my girlfriend says' you gotta mean it!!!'. You mean it and are dong what you need to do to be healthier and when you see people making decisions that are not what you are doing , you have the right to feel the way you do. I could go on and on about this but I will stop there!

    Keep up the good work everyone!!!

    It was easy for me to quit smoking too. I know it isn't easy for everyone, or everyone would quit. The same is true of weight. It was easy for you? FIne. It's so hard for some people they can't do it. Why? Because it's harder for them, thats' why, just like it's harder for most people to quit smoking than it was for me. I have no right to say everyone should do it because it's easy, and neither do you. MYOB.
  • taramaureen
    taramaureen Posts: 569 Member
    Don't feel bad AT ALL!!! What I have recognized is exactly what you said....it is easy to lose weight if you put your mind and effort to it...as my girlfriend says' you gotta mean it!!!'. You mean it and are dong what you need to do to be healthier and when you see people making decisions that are not what you are doing , you have the right to feel the way you do. I could go on and on about this but I will stop there!

    Keep up the good work everyone!!!

    No, it's not easy to lose weight. If it were easy everyone would be slender. I have several medical conditions that make it very hard for me to lose weight. Like, the scale hasn't budged in a year kinda thing.

    I'm training for an event called Tough Mudder and I met up with another one of my teamates so we could train together this morning. She was so super sweet and nice but because of my size I could see she was treating me differently than had I been her size. She assumed I couldn't do certain exercises and kept commenting on my weight. Very innocent like. She didn't have a clue until I told her that I had completed a half marathon just a few days ago.
  • ster81
    ster81 Posts: 249
    I personally dont feel like I have the right to judge nobody, especially random people that I dont know... For one, you dont really know the full story of why someone is obese. Could be anything, some have medical conditions, maybe an injury, or maybe they just like the way they are. Either way, I just focus on myself and do me.
  • nothing's wrong... we just need to remember that it took us some time to get where we are right now and it may take them a bit longer ...
  • aftergypsies
    aftergypsies Posts: 248 Member
    I can't judge but I have on occasion and then I think, dude, you were eating that a year ago. Then I shut my mind off of that and feel bad. It's not fair especially when I don't know them. Mostly, I feel empathy.
  • FitLink
    FitLink Posts: 1,317 Member
    I get frustrated by excuses. Particularly when someone complains about their weight, and then makes a million excuses for why they "can't" do anything about it. And if they say something like "Well, if I were lucky like you and had [____], I'd be able to do it to," then I want to smack them. I'm not lucky, I work hard for my health and my body.

    Judgemental? Not in my opinion. I just don't like complainers who don't do anything about their situations.

    Also, I was judgemental because my health insurance premium went up this year. A cited cause? Increase in obesity of employees. Ugh.

    Of course it's not judgmental "in your opinion." But you really don't have any idea how easy or hard anything is for anyone but you. I quit smoking in 2005, and even though I'd smoked for 25 years, it was EASY PEASY! When I finished the pack I was on, I just...quit. I chewed two pieces of Nicorette, because I expected it to be hard, but Nicorette tastes AWFUL and quitting was so easy I just gave away the rest of the Nicorette. Never wanted another cigarette, never missed them. It would be easy for me to decide that people who try to quit and fail just didn't try as hard as I did. But you know what? I'M LUCKY in that regard. I didn't 'work hard for my health..." I was LUCKY! I'm not BETTER than anyone, just LUCKY! I don't care how hard you think you work for your health and your body, you DO NOT know you work harder than anyone else.

    In my opinion, I'm not being judgmental of you, I just hate people who think they're better than other people. See how that opinion thing can be inaccurate sometimes?

    Also, I don't believe "increased obesity of employees" was the stated reason for your insurance premium increase. And what were the other "cited causes?" Does even one of them apply to you in any way?

    I'm not really sure what the first part of your response has anything to do with what I posted. I said I don't like people who complain about their situation, make excuses, and do nothing. As though someone is supposed to make them fit without them having to do the work. Which is totally different than what you are referencing, but hey, good for you and congrats on your success quitting smoking! That's awesome!

    I don't really care if you believe it was a stated reason or not. I'm pretty sure you weren't staring at the slide presentation with me? Anyway...

    I'm not really sure what part of my post upset you so much, so good luck and many successes to you!

    You claimed you weren't "lucky" as claimed by others but you only got your weight & health by hard work, and that's why you could judge them. I'm saying I could easily say I'm better than all those people who say they can't quit smoking because I just stopped one day. And I know, in my heart, if it was as easy for them as it was for me, they would have too. And you don't know that the reason the people who you say complain about their situation don't work HARD. You don't know what they're doing, or how hard the work they're doing is for them. I lost around 100 pounds before coming to MFP, and I really, truly believe that if the overweight people I see around me could lose their weight they would. For some reason, they weren't blessed with whatever it is in me that allowed me to do that. No one has the right to judge, because no one knows how difficult it is for someone else.

    I said I could judge them because I work hard? Where? I didn't. In fact, I never stated that I could or should judge anyone. I said, " I just don't like complainers who don't do anything about their situations."

    You're putting words in my mouth. If you re-read my post, I never said any of the things you are claiming and I made sure to explain that my frustration was geared towards a very specific type of situation.

    The whole premise of your disdain is unfounded. Go hammer on someone else.

    "I'm not lucky, I work hard for my health and my body." "I was judgemental because..." Those came from the post I replied to. I thought it was yours. If it wasn't, I apologize, and I will go through the thread and figure out who it should have gone to. Everything I said, I stand behind 100%, but apparently I mixed up whose post I was replying to. I intended it for the person who said "I'm not lucky, I work hard for my health and my body." and "I was judgemental because..." because no one can know how hard something is for someone else, or know they weren't luckier than someone else was and it's just easier for them. As a result, no one has the right to judge.

    I am sorry.
  • valeriebpdx
    valeriebpdx Posts: 497 Member
    I could judge you for not knowing how to spell judgmental. I think, "It's not hard to pick up a dictionary."

    Everyone is at different points of the weight loss experience. Maybe somebody else thinks you're weak for having put on any excess weight in the first place--do they have the right to judge you? We're all here to improve ourselves, and we're supposed to be supportive as part of the MFP community. You don't have the right to judge someone else "yet" or ever, and posting about it, trying to make it acceptable by pretending to be concerned about your judgmental nature, is irritating--be ashamed of it and keep it to yourself if you truly believe it's wrong.
  • Shock_Wave
    Shock_Wave Posts: 1,573 Member
    Hmmm. You're projecting? When I eat something like ice cream in public, like I did the other day, I feel awkward, because I worry I'm being judged.

    But you might consider that some of these folks have planned for their splurge, as some of us on MFP do. Or we count it and move on, even if we're over our calories for the day.

    Ok. One of the instances that pissed me off. I was at a texmex place, on my spike day, eating queso, a huge burrito, etc. This family walks in (Husband, wife, about a 7 year old, and a 1 year old) They were all over weight. Parents were obese. They sat next to us, and when they got their food, the man *****ed at the waiter because he ordered 2 lbs of fajita meat. TWO FREAKING POUNDS!!!! And she said "oh, when you said two, I thought you meant you wanted fajitas for two." He wanted to eat enough meat for 4 freaking people. WHY!?!?!



    Not to be mean but I think some people need to mind their own business. Some people are just happy with the way they live whether they are eaters, smoker, drinkers. Sure people are entitled to their opinions but when you start passing judgment then you need to back off and live and concentrate on your own life instead. You have no right to say some thing is wrong with people just because you dont like it. If people are happy then live and let live.

    Romans 2:1


    New International Version (©1984)
    You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.

    Even if you dont believe this is still a good motto and well said.
  • Shock_Wave
    Shock_Wave Posts: 1,573 Member
    I could judge you for not knowing how to spell judgmental. I think, "It's not hard to pick up a dictionary."

    Everyone is at different points of the weight loss experience. Maybe somebody else thinks you're weak for having put on any excess weight in the first place--do they have the right to judge you? We're all here to improve ourselves, and we're supposed to be supportive as part of the MFP community. You don't have the right to judge someone else "yet" or ever, and posting about it, trying to make it acceptable by pretending to be concerned about your judgmental nature, is irritating--be ashamed of it and keep it to yourself if you truly believe it's wrong.

    x2
  • marvelscale
    marvelscale Posts: 135
    I could judge you for not knowing how to spell judgmental. I think, "It's not hard to pick up a dictionary."

    Everyone is at different points of the weight loss experience. Maybe somebody else thinks you're weak for having put on any excess weight in the first place--do they have the right to judge you? We're all here to improve ourselves, and we're supposed to be supportive as part of the MFP community. You don't have the right to judge someone else "yet" or ever, and posting about it, trying to make it acceptable by pretending to be concerned about your judgmental nature, is irritating--be ashamed of it and keep it to yourself if you truly believe it's wrong.

    Off topic, but both spellings of the word are correct.
  • tinamatteson
    tinamatteson Posts: 125 Member
    I do this, too. Mainly towards my family. I love them so much and I do not want them to harm their health. It makes me sad because getting healthy is not as hard as i assumed it would be

    "Getting healthy is not as hard as I assumed it would be." Exactly! I have been on my new lifestyle plan for 2 months now and the weight is coming off on a regular basis and I'm so excited... I wish I'd known it would work this well! I always assumed it would be a difficult, awful, horrible process... and although it IS a lot of work, and does require discipline. it's definitely not as bad as I thought. And once you see the weight coming off you feel so encouraged. I don't ever want to go back.
  • JaySpice
    JaySpice Posts: 326 Member
    I guess you know it all know huh?

    I think a lot of people do this and I find it annoying. As soon as people 'know better' they think they can look down on the people who were just like them months ago. :grumble:

    BUT if that's how you feel who am I tell you anything else.
  • tinamatteson
    tinamatteson Posts: 125 Member
    I just try to remember that I was them once.

    Ouch! So true.
  • valeriebpdx
    valeriebpdx Posts: 497 Member
    I could judge you for not knowing how to spell judgmental. I think, "It's not hard to pick up a dictionary."

    Off topic, but both spellings of the word are correct.

    Not in America, but because this is a worldwide site I will accept the charge of ethnocentricity.
  • sunsetwest
    sunsetwest Posts: 199 Member
    this has been especially difficult for me because my mother-in-law has such an unhealthy perspective on food and she recently had a cancer scare. i thought she would try to eat better and take care of herself, but she still says things like, "well, and apple doesn't taste like a donut. too bad." and keeps little debbies in the fruit basket. so sad. i try to be more compassionate and, once they get me started on food or fitness, i'll tell them as much as they want to know! i love to spread the [healthy] word.
  • jedibunny
    jedibunny Posts: 321
    This is a great topic - and I have a few thoughts. I hope I'm not repeating much because I honestly didn't read all 10 pages, lol.

    I'm having these same sort of thoughts with my own FAMILY (and my bf, who used to work out hardcore but stopped after losing his job and now refuses to go back because he "doesn't have time" with the new job--which is BS). My family, though, are wonderful people who have no clue about nutrition even though they're vegetarian... they're part of the reason I was/am overweight. Carbs all day every day.

    Yesterday I went to dinner at my mom's, and had a nice salad with homemade croutons... and then, scalloped potatoes. A huge massive plate of just scalloped potatoes was set in front of everyone. I refused about half of the portion, but took some home because I knew my mother worked hard to cook it (and it did taste good). Then, she gave us homemade brownies. Again, SO GOOD, but I couldn't eat more than a half of one. She sent me home with two more. I haven't eaten them... but I'm sure by now my bf has.

    It's incredibly frustrating. My family doesn't really know better, but my bf definitely does, and yet he'll scarf down a half a pizza and three Red Bulls for dinner. No matter what I say or how I visibly change my diet/actions, it's ultimately HIS decision whether or not to join me in this. As for my family, maybe they'll start asking when they notice I'm dropping pounds and toning up, and then we'll see what happens.

    Me point is: be frustrated, but remember that it's not up to you to save the world - only yourself.
  • rainedragon
    rainedragon Posts: 7 Member
    I find that I am when people get into my personal space. For example, I ride a bus to work, and when someone overweight crams themselves into the seat next to me so that they are partially sitting on me, I get really irritated. I take up less than a whole seat, sure, but if you take up more than 1.3 seats, that doesn't give you the right to sit on me. Plus, while being sat on, one can't really leave and get a different seat. So I'm left with either telling someone they are too big for the space (and risk physical harm given the environment) or just deal with being sat on for up to an hour.

    That's when I get judgy about weight.

    People can be whatever weight they want; It's none of my business; but really, they need to accept that they take up a certain amount of space and accommodate themselves.
  • tequila09
    tequila09 Posts: 764 Member
    I find that I am when people get into my personal space. For example, I ride a bus to work, and when someone overweight crams themselves into the seat next to me so that they are partially sitting on me, I get really irritated. I take up less than a whole seat, sure, but if you take up more than 1.3 seats, that doesn't give you the right to sit on me. Plus, while being sat on, one can't really leave and get a different seat. So I'm left with either telling someone they are too big for the space (and risk physical harm given the environment) or just deal with being sat on for up to an hour.

    That's when I get judgy about weight.

    People can be whatever weight they want; It's none of my business; but really, they need to accept that they take up a certain amount of space and accommodate themselves.

    oh my goodness how rude of someone to partially sit on you!! i would definitely not be nice in that situation.
  • Zarebeth
    Zarebeth Posts: 136 Member
    I would love my 75-year old mother to quit smoking and lose weight. It kills me that she won't. But it isn't any of my damn business. And it sure the heck isn't yours. Mind your own business. Besides, you are just using it to make yourself feel superior, because you think you are better than them.

    Everyone is fighting a battle of some sort. Be kind to people because you just don't know what it is. I may be fat right now, but I will be thin soon enough. You will always be mean.
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