Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.

Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.

(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)

I've read this site, but I can never find where they site their sources Shame.

I had an argument with some people recently about the way vegans/vegetarians and meat eaters view eachother. A girl had posted a long list of 'stupid stuff meat eaters say', which included a lot of arguments for why people can and do eat meat. While I, after a lot of thinking, can see their side of the argument, they refuse to accept that meat eating is a choice and that 'there is no excuse for it'. She would list lots of research which has shown why we don't need meat, why we're not designed for digesting it, the vegan foods that contain more iron etc than meat, how meat is only bad for our health, etc. etc. These people I spoke to would also go on to say that meat eaters are angry towards vegetarians and vegans because we 'can't accept the truth', whereas it's their forceful opinion and absolute certainty that they are right that annoys me. Surely there are benefits to eating meat? Otherwise 95% of the population wouldnt' be eating it.
While I agree that the way we harvest meat is unethical, I personally wouldn't stop eating it simply because I like eating meat and fish.

I'd like to hear what other meat eaters / vegans have to say about this argument. I'm also wondering if there really ARE any actual benefits of meat that we truly can't get from anything else.

You really have to define the argument you want to talk about more carefully. There are several possibilities:

Are humans carnivores? Answer No. we are herbivores. This is demonstrated by our physiology, dentition and history. Can we eat meat? Yes, a wolf or a tiger can also eat berries. That does not make them herbivores. As for whether we are omnivores, virtually all animals are omnivores in the sense that they CAN eat both meat and vegetables. Omnivore is not a valid classification in my opinion.

Does eating meat harm you? There are many many stufies that show that eating meat can cause occlusion of the arteries, obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health problems. There is not one single study that shows that eating vegetables can harm you. None. Nada Nichts

Are there moral issues? Of course. If you believe in the Golden Rule, then you are a hypocrite if you eat dead animals. If you claim you are an environmentalist, you are a hypocrite unless you are vegetarian. If you claim you like animals then....well you get the picture.

So do you want to talk about health issues, moral issues, scientific evidence or whatever? Define what you want to discuiss.

Everything and anything surrounding this issue. Talking with the people I spoke to a few days ago brought a LOT of things to my attention that i'd never even thought about before. And this is exactly the example I posted a few minutes ago (the example post of why humans aren't omnivores)

I'd just like to point out that machines used in agriculture kills thousands of animals a year. I know a lot of people are vegan because they don't want to harm animals, but the truth is that unless you grow all of your food yourself and harvest it in a way that doesn't kill anything (hand picking it, basically), you're harming animals.

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I am a proud vegetarian myself, I don't push it onto people I just don't feel like something should die for me to eat when it doesn't need to. I love educating people though when they ask questions

Aren't you killing that plant when you're chewing on it?

Another frequent discussion amongst vegans / meat-eaters. Their argument is that plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain etc. etc.

I read an article a few weeks back that said they've determined that peas communicate, and therefore could be considered sentient. I rolled my eyes. People have to eat SOMETHING. Please don't freak out the vegans and vegetarians by telling them peas are sentient.

Yeah, sure. I also heard that grass clippings are a warning sign to blades of grass to protect themselves.

Yep, the smell of freshly cut grass is grass calling out a warning. Plants don't have nervous systems like animals, but they do have their own versions. Look at how some plants respond to touch, touch a plant consistently on one side, and it will start growing more on the other side to get away from the obstruction. Some plants sense dowels and trellises to wrap around and climb up. Some are able to rotate and turn themselves toward light sources, and some respond to sounds. They also breathe. Plants are just as much alive as any animal.

Actually, it takes less resources and space to farm veggies than animals.

It would take alot of space if you wanted EVERYONE to go on a vegan diet, plus you would have to find land suitable to cultivate. That is one of the great things with an animal like a cow, it can be placed on land that wouldn't be suitable to cultivate and so then you're able to use a space that wasn't useable as a food resource.

Raising animals for food requires lots more land than growing crops. That's because animals eat a lot more food than they provide as meat. It takes 16 pounds of grain to make one pound of beef. That's 94% more land. And 94% more pesticides. All told, livestock eat 70% of all the grain we produce. They're food factories in reverse.

Animal farming wastes huge amounts of land. The point is that going meatless requires far, far less land and other resources than our normal eating habits do.

(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html)

Yes, but again, if you stop raising those animals for food, and decide to use the land used for their food source to feed humans, you've just effectively exterminated an entire species of animal. Where do you think the billions of cattle will go if the ranchers stop raising them? Won't they still need all that food to survive? Won't that lead to widespread destruction of farm land anyway? Vegans like to throw out the quick statistics like that, but, usually fail to think all the way through to the end result. Either the farmed animals would all go extinct, or all the land we'd supposedly save by not farming the animals would go to the animals anyway to keep them alive. Doesn't that basically negate the entire vegan don't kill animals argument?

Agreed!!! Some form of animal products is need in our diet but it doesn't have to be meat. It can be milk, egg, cheese, yogurt etc that will fulfill Vitamin B12 requirement

There are no benefits of meat. The reason vegans cannot "accept" your lifestyle is because it promotes murder, rape, and torture of living beings for the sole purpose of selfish human desire for taste. That is something I cannot and will not ever condone. Meat eating is cultural and that is why people get so defensive and feel under attack when all the evidence points to the lack of ethics in the choice to eat animal products. Scientific studies prove that humans do not need meat to survive and live a healthy lifestyle. Millions of vegans prove this by simply living their lives. Carnists view animals as objects and property, not creatures with thoughts or feelings or lives of their own. Carnists lack empathy and compassion, which in itself is inhuman.

Aaaaaaaand there we go. This conversation was going just fine without hyperbole, stereotypes, and assumptions.

I don't know what you're talking about. If you condone the murder of living creatures so you can say "yum, what a great steak" that's selfish and lacking empathy. No hyperbole here. Just because you're personally uncomfortable does not mean I'm wrong.

I'm quite comfortable. Nobody's attacking vegans here. It's a conversation. For every scientific study that says humans don't need meat, there's another that says we do. It all depends on the researcher and what they want to prove. Who knows which side is right?

If you don't eat meat for moral reasons, then really, that's awesome. I'm glad that you feel strongly about something and stand up for what you believe is right. But just as I'm not going to go around telling everybody who isn't Christian that they're heathens and going to hell, you might want to think about your tone when talking to people about this particular matter. You want to convert people? Awesome! Go for it. But do it with love. People aren't often swayed by confrontational language.