Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

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This is why we have cutting teeth in our mouths (to rip appart meat) and a pancreas (producing enzymes to break down raw meat). Also, our eyes point forward instead of to the side which classifies us as predators rather than prey.... We also have molars and such for grinding and mashing vegatation.

Soooooooo...... If you really want to get technical we are Omnivores. If one group wants to eat more/all of a particular side of the spectrum more power to them. For me... I like to keep things balanced.

"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology

Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?

Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.

I've never seen a deer sweat or sip it's water. What a load of nonsense, lol. Maybe it's just me, but I have a mix of grinding and sharp teeth.

I suppose the deer you've seen have claws as well.

Koala Bear. Sloth. Panda. Claws are related to how you need to access your food source.

Agreed. Physical characteristics are part of climate and the evolutionary process in relation to natural and sexual selection. You can't group everything into 3 categories.

VegesaurusRex · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

jg627 · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

My food poops on your food. So there.

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

Can we view your stance on killing insects?

SandyAnnP · May 2012

I think the decision to eat or not eat meat is a personal one.
Our family have always been meat eaters, but my husband and I are now trying to have a couple of meat-free meals each week.
There are heaps of absolutely delicious vegetarian recipes out there, so we do not feel deprived in any way.
To each his own...................................

Dragonwolf · May 2012

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Cows need to be milk and get stressed if they are not, its a relief for them when they are milked.

SERIOUSLY?

Cows provide milk for baby cows. When the baby stops drinking milk, the cows stop producing milk.

Just like a woman who has a child doesn't breastfeed for the rest of her life and have to pump every day. A cow that births a calf doesn't need to produce milk once that calf is weaned.

Milking a cow in a dairy farm is torture, pure and simple. The cows nipples are chafed and raw. They are uncomfortable and crowded into tiny spaces and hooked up to metal robot arms to milk them. For a dairy cow to get milked it is anything but a relief.

SERIOUSLY!

Wouldn't it be ridiculous if mammals did NEED to be milked! How grumpy would us ladies be then?!

Have either of you two ever breastfed? Before the milk dries up, when the tanks get full, it's downright painful and relieving the pressure (either through feeding or pumping) can be nearly orgasmic in the relief it brings. Additionally, being overfull can lead to infection if not taken care of properly. So yes, in a sense, we do "need" to be milked, at least until we wean (which is generally done slowly).

Now, whether the cows should be put in such a position in the first place (which they shouldn't if their calves aren't taken away from them, and they're not pumped full of hormones to increase milk production), is a different debate altogether, which I won't get into.

bcattoes · May 2012

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you post something like that. If nothing else, the intent is different. While hunting may go bad and cause torture at times, the intent is to kill quickly. Driving down the road in my car may accidentally cause torture to an animal accidentally. That doesn't mean there is no difference between driving a car and torturing animals

Rhea30 · May 2012

Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.

Your statement about vitamin C is very false. Most animals produce their own vitamin C, only a handful don't which include some primates, humans, guinea pigs. I guess a goat is a carnivore now since it produces its own vitamin C.

hallie_b · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

More recently, Karla Homolka is identified as a "serial killer" and she does not have a history of animal abuse.

_VoV · May 2012

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Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.

If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.

It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.

I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.

I think this makes a good point. Morals are very dependent on the individual.

To take it a step forward, I personally believe a vegan diet is the most compassionate one around. It's not totally cruelty-free, but it aims to reduce animal suffering as much as possible. This is not saying that *I*, as a vegan, am more compassionate in other areas in my life (see above), or even the most compassionate person here, even if we could agree on how we could determine that. So please don't think vegans think they are *better* than other people, even if they think they have it going on in that area of their lives.

Not to worry. I've definitely seen on here that a LOT of vegans and vegetarians made their lifestyle food choices for their own reasons and not based on what they want everyone to be doing.
Although we never REALLY answered the main question of this thread. Which is 'Do we as humans benefit at all from eating meat or does it cause more health concerns than it does good?' I don't think we will know for another few decades...

I'm sorry. I just don't argue the health benefits of vegetarianism vs. meat-eating. I personally think that eating small amounts of meat along with a well-selected plant diet is superior to being a junk-food vegan, who subsists on chips, cupcakes and French fries. But, to me, the ideal diet for optimal health is whole food vegan--veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains, and nuts. But, my motivation is ethics, so even if it were less healthful than eating meat, I would still do it.

VegesaurusRex · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

Elizabeth Bathory

Since she was born in 1560, there is no record of her early life, other than that she killed and tortured little girls. It is quite probable that she started with animals, algthough I cannot prove that and you cannot prove the contrary.

doorki · May 2012

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again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

You inability to support your claims in any intellectual way make any point you may be trying to make null and void.

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

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Cows need to be milk and get stressed if they are not, its a relief for them when they are milked.

SERIOUSLY?

Cows provide milk for baby cows. When the baby stops drinking milk, the cows stop producing milk.

Just like a woman who has a child doesn't breastfeed for the rest of her life and have to pump every day. A cow that births a calf doesn't need to produce milk once that calf is weaned.

Milking a cow in a dairy farm is torture, pure and simple. The cows nipples are chafed and raw. They are uncomfortable and crowded into tiny spaces and hooked up to metal robot arms to milk them. For a dairy cow to get milked it is anything but a relief.

SERIOUSLY!

Wouldn't it be ridiculous if mammals did NEED to be milked! How grumpy would us ladies be then?!

Have either of you two ever breastfed? Before the milk dries up, when the tanks get full, it's downright painful and relieving the pressure (either through feeding or pumping) can be nearly orgasmic in the relief it brings. Additionally, being overfull can lead to infection if not taken care of properly. So yes, in a sense, we do "need" to be milked, at least until we wean (which is generally done slowly).

Now, whether the cows should be put in such a position in the first place (which they shouldn't if their calves aren't taken away from them, and they're not pumped full of hormones to increase milk production), is a different debate altogether, which I won't get into.

Clearly I had no idea. I don't know why i've never heard this before considering the amount of 'breastfeeding' topics that come up on here.

VegesaurusRex · May 2012

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She worked in a pet shop and a veterinary clinic. Duh.

again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

More recently, Karla Homolka is identified as a "serial killer" and she does not have a history of animal abuse.

Karla Homolka used drugs she obtained working in a veterinary clinic. Where do you suppose she got the idea?

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

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Ridiculous. Vegans just by virtue of who they are do far more than any hunter for the environment. Hunting is barbaric. Albert DeSalvio Jeffery Dommers, all the great serial killers started as hunters and animal torturers. Hunting is the antithesis of civilization.

If you are wanting to prove a case of morals that way, here is some news for you: Hitler was a vegetarian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_vegetarianism

Hitler was also a dejected art student...what is your point? Should we be worried about art students?
Please don't comapre me to Hitler because of what I eat. My in-laws are Jewish and I am kind of offended.

It was a very drastic, and yes offensive statement to make. This person was TRYING to say that just because someone is a vegetarian/vegan, doesn't make them a better person than someone who eats meat.

I am going a bit out on a limb here on this issue of moral superiority to say some behaviors are more laudatory than others. Some examples: The volunteer fireman who risks his life to save people from disaster: Way better than me in assuming personal risk to help others and showing amazing civic responsibility. The teacher who devotes extra time after her school to struggling students: way better than me in caring for those who struggle acquiring new knowledge. The person who sits with a hospice patient and listens to their hard realities: way better than me in suspending her fear of death to help another person. Are these people 'better' than me? I think in those discrete ways they are.

I think this makes a good point. Morals are very dependent on the individual.

To take it a step forward, I personally believe a vegan diet is the most compassionate one around. It's not totally cruelty-free, but it aims to reduce animal suffering as much as possible. This is not saying that *I*, as a vegan, am more compassionate in other areas in my life (see above), or even the most compassionate person here, even if we could agree on how we could determine that. So please don't think vegans think they are *better* than other people, even if they think they have it going on in that area of their lives.

Not to worry. I've definitely seen on here that a LOT of vegans and vegetarians made their lifestyle food choices for their own reasons and not based on what they want everyone to be doing.
Although we never REALLY answered the main question of this thread. Which is 'Do we as humans benefit at all from eating meat or does it cause more health concerns than it does good?' I don't think we will know for another few decades...

I'm sorry. I just don't argue the health benefits of vegetarianism vs. meat-eating. I personally think that eating small amounts of meat along with a well-selected plant diet is superior to being a junk-food vegan, who subsists on chips, cupcakes and French fries. But, to me, the ideal diet for optimal health is whole food vegan--veggies, fruits, beans, whole grains, and nuts. But, my motivation is ethics, so even if it were less healthful than eating meat, I would still do it.

At least you do it without forcing your ideals onto everyone else. I respect that so much.

ironanimal · May 2012

3.

VegesaurusRex · May 2012

show previous quotes

again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

You inability to support your claims in any intellectual way make any point you may be trying to make null and void.

Torture means to inflict severe phsyical or mental pain upon. That is the dictionary defintion. Shooting an animal, particularly if the shot does not immediately kill the animal fits the definition. I never saw a hunter who was sober enough to kill on the first shot.

ironanimal · May 2012

And lock.

doorki · May 2012

show previous quotes

again you are equating people who hunt = serial killers. While there may have been some people who are serial killers that liked to hunt, just because one HUNTS does not make them a serial killer with no feelings.

Serial killers are people who have no sense of right or wrong, who do not care if they are hurting others. Hunters, people who respect the sport and respect animals do not go out to make animals suffer, to torture them and scare them.

Stop perpetuating the misconceptions that people who hunt are these barbaric soulless people.

Oh, I see. I misunderstood. Hunters are actually sensitive men and women who care about causing pain to others. Right! If you believe that, I've got some Enron stock to sell you.

Pretty sure that A. You have never been hunting and B. Don't really know anyone that is a hunter.

Seeing as I have gone hunting, and I know what kind of person I am on the inside and my thoughts and feeling towards others, and the fact that I am a sensitive person, and *gasp* am not a serial killer- I can just sit here and say you are full of *kitten* and can't accept the fact that not everyone in the world plays into the stereotype you have made into your head.

I also know that arguing with you any further about this is about as constructive as me bashing my head into a brick wall.

I know plenty of hunters. They are weak insecure individuals who usually are in the lowest class of society. (Yeah, I know, politicians all hunt, but they only do that to get votes.) They have the least education, the lowest paid jobs, and generally are embarassed to be in the same company with middle and upper class people, who they don't understand. Yeah, there are excpetions, but 90% fall into that mold. And yes, I really did grow up in a family of hunters, but as much as my father wanted me to hunt, even as a little boy, I refused. I had no desire to kill, and I actually liked animals. And yes, practically all the men in my family were hunters and boozers. I went to our local rod and gun club with my father (I didn't mind target shooting) and since it was a private club, they could serve liquor on Sunday. That was the big attraction. That and the fact that people who were afraiid to be among educated people could drink and have fun with their peers.

Wow. Could you possibly be any more self righteous?

Not self righteous, just a troll. He only posts in these kinds of threads just to bash and troll as much as he possibly can. Prety sad and pathetic, honestly. Best to just ignore him.

Yup, when people start talking about things that interest me, I come out. I guess a non-troll in your opinion, is someone who just shoots off his mouth with an opinion, and nothing to back it up.

You never did back up your serial killer claim.....

Yes, I did. Try to name any serial killer in history who did not start out by killing animals. You cannot.

You mean as hunting or just standard torture? You made the claim...back it up.

There is no difference between hunting and torturing animals.

You inability to support your claims in any intellectual way make any point you may be trying to make null and void.

Torture means to inflict severe phsyical or mental pain upon. That is the dictionary defintion. Shooting an animal, particularly if the shot does not immediately kill the animal fits the definition. I never saw a hunter who was sober enough to kill on the first shot.

Problem with absolutes is that it just takes one black swan......

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

... what happened.

susannamarie · May 2012

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

Haha! This feels like an achievement.

'You have unlocked the 'Locked' achievement!'

jg627 · May 2012

show previous quotes

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

Haha! This feels like an achievement.

'You have unlocked the 'Locked' achievement!'

That's gold trophy if you play the ps3 version. Congratulations!

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

Anyway, what I was going to ask before my topic got locked was 'What is the vegan stance on killing insects?' Either through phobia or pesticides and insecticides used on massive farms.

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

show previous quotes

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

Haha! This feels like an achievement.

'You have unlocked the 'Locked' achievement!'

That's gold trophy if you play the ps3 version. Congratulations!

I prefer Steam achievements! But i'll happily take that as my second choice.

ironanimal · May 2012

show previous quotes

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

Haha! This feels like an achievement.

'You have unlocked the 'Locked' achievement!'

That's gold trophy if you play the ps3 version. Congratulations!

I prefer Steam achievements! But i'll happily take that as my second choice.

PC > Xbox 360 > Beubonic Plague > PS3

hallie_b · May 2012

Anyway, what I was going to ask before my topic got locked was 'What is the vegan stance on killing insects?' Either through phobia or pesticides and insecticides used on massive farms.

I know people who get really upset if you squish a bug. Sometimes if a bug is on me I freak and squish, but I don't eat it afterwards.

ironanimal · May 2012

show previous quotes

Anyway, what I was going to ask before my topic got locked was 'What is the vegan stance on killing insects?' Either through phobia or pesticides and insecticides used on massive farms.

I know people who get really upset if you squish a bug. Sometimes if a bug is on me I freak and squish, but I don't eat it afterwards.

So wasteful, ugh. People like you are serial killers.

Or something.

susannamarie · May 2012

show previous quotes

Anyway, what I was going to ask before my topic got locked was 'What is the vegan stance on killing insects?' Either through phobia or pesticides and insecticides used on massive farms.

I know people who get really upset if you squish a bug. Sometimes if a bug is on me I freak and squish, but I don't eat it afterwards.

So wasteful, ugh. People like you are serial killers.

Or something.

Better than being a cereal killer

BrokenButterfly · May 2012

show previous quotes

Your thread overflowed, so it automatically spun it off into a new thread and locked the old one.

Haha! This feels like an achievement.

'You have unlocked the 'Locked' achievement!'

That's gold trophy if you play the ps3 version. Congratulations!

I prefer Steam achievements! But i'll happily take that as my second choice.

PC > Xbox 360 > Beubonic Plague > PS3

:O You shock and appal me, sir.
Actually, the PS3 does annoy me a hell of a lot. Ps1 and 2 was (in my opinion) the king's balls of consoles. PS3 would be perfect to me if it didn't stop me from playing old games on it. *mumbles grumpily*

Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

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