Building Muscle vs. Losing Weight

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  • frootcat
    frootcat Posts: 194 Member
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    Ok, Cris, I think you gave me an epiphany (woo!). Let me see if I have this straight.

    I'm a hefty mama of 200+ pounds, and one point I was even near 300. During that time--while I was enjoying excessive amounts of beer and pizza--I was padding my awesome bod with many comforting layers of fat. Also during that time, while I lugged all that comforting fat around, I built muscle--but I didn't really use it effectively/efficiently. It's there, but it's kinda uninflated and lazy.

    Now I am taking better care of myself and I am losing weight by eating at a calorie deficit and walking about an hour a day. When I introduce some (heavy) weight training, I will not create muscle, but I will USE the muscle I already have in a more effective manner. My little muscle cells, instead of being wimpy, uninflated, 'just doing the minimum to get the job done' will gain confidence and start walking around with their little chests all puffed out.

    To me, an average person with no special knowledge of how bodies do things, it will LOOK like I am gaining muscle, but in fact I am merely improving what is already there--gained while lugging my dear, comforting fat around.

    Please tell me I have understood you correctly, because I rather like this explanation, lol. :)
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    Actually, the immobilized arm comment really resonated with me a lot, likewise having more muscle mass as a heavier person than when I was a skinny kid. Age and maturity alone adds more muscle mass, until you start getting to the age where you naturally start losing it. I'm probably close to that age now, about to turn 40, and working hard to keep it.

    My muscles appear larger now than before I lifted, than before I lost weight. My arms were jiggly... you couldn't see anything when I flexed. There were no visible muscles in my back or legs, either. But going by estimates of body fat percentage, my lean mass is lower than it was when I started on here by several pounds. I lost more fat than lean mass, sure, but I didn't "gain" muscle, either.

    So when Chris said that your muscles become more responsive, that was a big "AHA!" moment for me... that explained why I could "see" muscles I couldn't see before. Because even with the layer of fat covering them, I always thought, "Shouldn't I still be able to see the difference when I flexed?" Now I know why.

    And when I was a skinny kid (up to my mid 20s), I didn't have much muscle at all. Over the next 15 years, between growing older, having a physically demanding job, having some physically demanding hobbies, and carrying around an extra 20-30 pounds all the time, I have a lot more muscle now than I did then. Even wearing about the same size clothes, my thighs, calves and arms are much more developed now. Before I did any lifting at all.

    I just caught this Lorina (was on my phone before), and you've got it exactly :). You naturally add lean mass with weight and age...it's not effective mass really...but your body just doesn't keep you at a skinny 130lbs on the inside, and add only fat from there on out. If you gain a lot of weight, that lean mass can be substantial.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    Ok, Cris, I think you gave me an epiphany (woo!). Let me see if I have this straight.

    I'm a hefty mama of 200+ pounds, and one point I was even near 300. During that time--while I was enjoying excessive amounts of beer and pizza--I was padding my awesome bod with many comforting layers of fat. Also during that time, while I lugged all that comforting fat around, I built muscle--but I didn't really use it effectively/efficiently. It's there, but it's kinda uninflated and lazy.

    Now I am taking better care of myself and I am losing weight by eating at a calorie deficit and walking about an hour a day. When I introduce some (heavy) weight training, I will not create muscle, but I will USE the muscle I already have in a more effective manner. My little muscle cells, instead of being wimpy, uninflated, 'just doing the minimum to get the job done' will gain confidence and start walking around with their little chests all puffed out.

    To me, an average person with no special knowledge of how bodies do things, it will LOOK like I am gaining muscle, but in fact I am merely improving what is already there--gained while lugging my dear, comforting fat around.

    Please tell me I have understood you correctly, because I rather like this explanation, lol. :)

    Amen young lady...you've got it! The ratio of fat to muscle built when overweight certainly isn't in the favor of muscle, but yes...you definitely put on muscle as well. And a man puts on even more. SUBSTANTIALLY more. Testosterone is a wonderful thing.

    Also understand, with women the effect is less. It's still there, but it's not as substantial...because no matter how big you may be, a comparably sized man (due to his testosterone as I said above) simply built more muscle mass while overweight. Think of it as a percentage of a percentage. This isn't precise, but it gives you an idea. A man gains 100lbs while inactive, 20lbs is lean muscle (random number). You, as a woman...may put on 100lbs, but your lean mass built will be a fraction of that 20lbs, because as a woman, you don't add muscle as easily. Additionally, once you do lean out...the response from lifting is lesser..from the lesser muscle built.

    Now, remember that all I'm writing here is very generalized and simplified...but it'll give you a way to hold it in your head (as you did very well above).
  • frootcat
    frootcat Posts: 194 Member
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    Awesome, thank you! This makes me feel much better somehow. :)
  • McButtski
    McButtski Posts: 203 Member
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    Okay, okay, I have some questions and I want answers, I need them, I do.

    I'll admit that I never knew you couldn't build muscle on a deficit, it means that any gym I've attended are employing LIARS.. even good owl Gillian Michaels is lying to me - fine, I can live with that, never trusted the f*ckers in the first place but I still need to know a couple things so I have it straight.

    1) Generally, when we're at a gym or doing a nutrition and exercise course, we're told not to mind the scales and measure in inches instead - if we're eating at a constant calorific deficit, why, WHY would the scales not go down alongside our inches???

    2) I was under the impression that when we lift heavy, our muscle fibers rip which causes the 'burning' pain sensation in the muscles.. our muscle then goes on to over-compensate so it doesn't happen again by adding a minuscule amount of muscle to knit the fibers back together. So, tell me, when I'm eating less and my muscles burn for a few days after a work-out - what the hell is happening? Did the fibers rip? Where's the energy going to come from to repair them? If they do repair themselves, will they be smaller, the same or bigger? What happens????

    I sincerely apologies if this has been answered previously, I will admit to skimming from page 5 to 8 as it was slightly repetitive.. slightly, just slightly repetitive.. my head hurt.

    Thanks in advance for any insight :happy:
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Ok, Cris, I think you gave me an epiphany (woo!). Let me see if I have this straight.

    I'm a hefty mama of 200+ pounds, and one point I was even near 300. During that time--while I was enjoying excessive amounts of beer and pizza--I was padding my awesome bod with many comforting layers of fat. Also during that time, while I lugged all that comforting fat around, I built muscle--but I didn't really use it effectively/efficiently. It's there, but it's kinda uninflated and lazy.

    Now I am taking better care of myself and I am losing weight by eating at a calorie deficit and walking about an hour a day. When I introduce some (heavy) weight training, I will not create muscle, but I will USE the muscle I already have in a more effective manner. My little muscle cells, instead of being wimpy, uninflated, 'just doing the minimum to get the job done' will gain confidence and start walking around with their little chests all puffed out.

    To me, an average person with no special knowledge of how bodies do things, it will LOOK like I am gaining muscle, but in fact I am merely improving what is already there--gained while lugging my dear, comforting fat around.

    Please tell me I have understood you correctly, because I rather like this explanation, lol. :)

    I have to say, your imagery is fabulous.:drinker:
  • LorinaLynn
    LorinaLynn Posts: 13,247 Member
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    1) Generally, when we're at a gym or doing a nutrition and exercise course, we're told not to mind the scales and measure in inches instead - if we're eating at a constant calorific deficit, why, WHY would the scales not go down alongside our inches???

    2) I was under the impression that when we lift heavy, our muscle fibers rip which causes the 'burning' pain sensation in the muscles.. our muscle then goes on to over-compensate so it doesn't happen again by adding a minuscule amount of muscle to knit the fibers back together. So, tell me, when I'm eating less and my muscles burn for a few days after a work-out - what the hell is happening? Did the fibers rip? Where's the energy going to come from to repair them? If they do repair themselves, will they be smaller, the same or bigger? What happens????

    I'm a huge advocate for throwing the scale out the window, but that's because there's many factors that contribute to the number on the scale, and obsessing over it can make you nuts. A higher sodium day, a heavy exercise day, pesky hormonal changes... can all contribute to an increase on the scale. The burning you feel when your muscles have those microscopic tears is inflammation - fluid retention - that causes that increase on the scale that everyone is so quick to say, "You're building muscle and muscle weighs more than fat."

    But as for the rest... I don't know. I'm guessing those tears make your muscles more responsive and stronger, but you aren't actually adding any bulk or mass. A stronger muscle isn't necessarily a bigger muscle. Maybe the energy to repair those tears comes from fat, and why they say that lifting, while not giving you the big calorie burn of cardio, burns more over a longer time.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Okay, okay, I have some questions and I want answers, I need them, I do.

    I'll admit that I never knew you couldn't build muscle on a deficit, it means that any gym I've attended are employing LIARS.. even good owl Gillian Michaels is lying to me - fine, I can live with that, never trusted the f*ckers in the first place but I still need to know a couple things so I have it straight.

    1) Generally, when we're at a gym or doing a nutrition and exercise course, we're told not to mind the scales and measure in inches instead - if we're eating at a constant calorific deficit, why, WHY would the scales not go down alongside our inches???

    2) I was under the impression that when we lift heavy, our muscle fibers rip which causes the 'burning' pain sensation in the muscles.. our muscle then goes on to over-compensate so it doesn't happen again by adding a minuscule amount of muscle to knit the fibers back together. So, tell me, when I'm eating less and my muscles burn for a few days after a work-out - what the hell is happening? Did the fibers rip? Where's the energy going to come from to repair them? If they do repair themselves, will they be smaller, the same or bigger? What happens????

    I sincerely apologies if this has been answered previously, I will admit to skimming from page 5 to 8 as it was slightly repetitive.. slightly, just slightly repetitive.. my head hurt.

    Thanks in advance for any insight :happy:
    1. Water retention. Muscles retain large amounts of water when damaged and repairing themselves.

    2. Repairing does not mean adding more tissue. Muscles are broken down and repaired constantly all day, every day. Yes, when you weight train, muscle fibers can be damaged and repaired, but they cannot grow larger without excess calories. Most strength gains don't come from muscle growth, but from neuromuscular adaptation, meaning the brain and central nervous system get much more efficient at using the muscle that is there. I like to use a box and ropes for an example.

    Say you have a box that you are trying to lift. You have 4 ropes attached to a pulley. You hook 2 of the ropes to the box, and try to lift it unsuccessfully. Now you connect the other 2 ropes to the box, and lift it up. You didn't gain any new rope, you just used it more efficiently. The human body functions the same way. The brain may only use 1/4th of the actual muscle tissue in an untrained muscle to do normal work, and the rest of the muscle is just there, doing nothing. Training the muscle causes the brain to learn, and use more of the muscle tissue at once, causing gains in strength without gaining new tissue.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    Okay, okay, I have some questions and I want answers, I need them, I do.

    I'll admit that I never knew you couldn't build muscle on a deficit, it means that any gym I've attended are employing LIARS.. even good owl Gillian Michaels is lying to me - fine, I can live with that, never trusted the f*ckers in the first place but I still need to know a couple things so I have it straight.

    1) Generally, when we're at a gym or doing a nutrition and exercise course, we're told not to mind the scales and measure in inches instead - if we're eating at a constant calorific deficit, why, WHY would the scales not go down alongside our inches???

    2) I was under the impression that when we lift heavy, our muscle fibers rip which causes the 'burning' pain sensation in the muscles.. our muscle then goes on to over-compensate so it doesn't happen again by adding a minuscule amount of muscle to knit the fibers back together. So, tell me, when I'm eating less and my muscles burn for a few days after a work-out - what the hell is happening? Did the fibers rip? Where's the energy going to come from to repair them? If they do repair themselves, will they be smaller, the same or bigger? What happens????

    I sincerely apologies if this has been answered previously, I will admit to skimming from page 5 to 8 as it was slightly repetitive.. slightly, just slightly repetitive.. my head hurt.

    Thanks in advance for any insight :happy:
    1. Water retention. Muscles retain large amounts of water when damaged and repairing themselves.

    2. Repairing does not mean adding more tissue. Muscles are broken down and repaired constantly all day, every day. Yes, when you weight train, muscle fibers can be damaged and repaired, but they cannot grow larger without excess calories. Most strength gains don't come from muscle growth, but from neuromuscular adaptation, meaning the brain and central nervous system get much more efficient at using the muscle that is there. I like to use a box and ropes for an example.

    Say you have a box that you are trying to lift. You have 4 ropes attached to a pulley. You hook 2 of the ropes to the box, and try to lift it unsuccessfully. Now you connect the other 2 ropes to the box, and lift it up. You didn't gain any new rope, you just used it more efficiently. The human body functions the same way. The brain may only use 1/4th of the actual muscle tissue in an untrained muscle to do normal work, and the rest of the muscle is just there, doing nothing. Training the muscle causes the brain to learn, and use more of the muscle tissue at once, causing gains in strength without gaining new tissue.

    Thanks Tiger...as usual you handled that perfectly.

    Lorina...your guess was right, but there's more to it as well. Hormonal response (growth hormone/adrenalin) play a large part also. They are the key to the door your body uses to access that fat to burn for energy in order to repair, rather than just allow the muscle to be broken down.
  • KarinFit4Life
    KarinFit4Life Posts: 424 Member
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    Cris - How do you get the best Hormonal response when weight training?
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    Cris - How do you get the best Hormonal response when weight training?

    Cris can give his thoughts but IMHO, there is nothing special you need to do other than lift heavy (for you) weights on a regular basis. Follow whatever program you want, NROLFW, Stronglifts, whatever. Just the doing it causes the hormonal response. It's not really more complicated than that.
  • KarinFit4Life
    KarinFit4Life Posts: 424 Member
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    Cris - How do you get the best Hormonal response when weight training?

    Cris can give his thoughts but IMHO, there is nothing special you need to do other than lift heavy (for you) weights on a regular basis. Follow whatever program you want, NROLFW, Stronglifts, whatever. Just the doing it causes the hormonal response. It's not really more complicated than that.

    Thank you mmapags! So I'm on the right track at least doing NROLFW. :happy:
  • flyuk
    flyuk Posts: 28
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    There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

    All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.
  • d2footballJRC
    d2footballJRC Posts: 2,684 Member
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    There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

    All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

    It would be nice if the energy your body needs to build new muscle tissue came from stored fat. But when your body is in a predominantly catabolic state (which it will need to be if you want to lose fat), gaining muscle is not its main priority. In fact, muscle protein synthesis is reduced by around 20% on a weight loss diet.

    So while you CAN in essence build a very small amount of muscles while on a deficit its progress is beyond a snail pace slow.
  • flyuk
    flyuk Posts: 28
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    There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

    All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

    It would be nice if the energy your body needs to build new muscle tissue came from stored fat. But when your body is in a predominantly catabolic state (which it will need to be if you want to lose fat), gaining muscle is not its main priority. In fact, muscle protein synthesis is reduced by around 20% on a weight loss diet.

    So while you CAN in essence build a very small amount of muscles while on a deficit its progress is beyond a snail pace slow.

    That probably means that you do not have to eat above maintainence until your body fat is below a certain % to put muscle on unless I'm mistaken.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    That probably means that you do not have to eat above maintainence until your body fat is below a certain % to put muscle on unless I'm mistaken.

    If by put muscle on you mean 'put on an incredibly tiny amount of muscle'...then yes
  • FlyeredUp
    FlyeredUp Posts: 663 Member
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    That probably means that you do not have to eat above maintainence until your body fat is below a certain % to put muscle on unless I'm mistaken.

    If by put muscle on you mean 'put on an incredibly tiny amount of muscle'...then yes
    Even if someone only puts on a tiny bit of mucle while they are eating at a deficit its far better than not lifting at all and having about 22% of your weight loss (depending on the person) being made up from lean muscle.
  • FlyeredUp
    FlyeredUp Posts: 663 Member
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    There's a lot of bro-science in this thread, with very little research to back it up.

    All of you saying that you can't gain muscle mass whilst in calorie deficit need to explain why you need to eat more than your body consumes to get bigger muscles. If you have fat, your body an use that to burn for energy surely, which is how the body works. Lipid stores burnt through fat oxidisation to be converted into glucose, the body's fuel. Until your body is down to a very low fat percentage there is no scientific reason why you can't gain muscle mass while losing weight if you have enough of the right foods in you. Does this not make sense? I'm not trolling by the way, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.

    It would be nice if the energy your body needs to build new muscle tissue came from stored fat. But when your body is in a predominantly catabolic state (which it will need to be if you want to lose fat), gaining muscle is not its main priority. In fact, muscle protein synthesis is reduced by around 20% on a weight loss diet.

    So while you CAN in essence build a very small amount of muscles while on a deficit its progress is beyond a snail pace slow.
    The key is newbie gains and to set your macro's so that your weight loss is very slow, during the 13 months that it took me to lose my weight I tried not to lose more than 1 lb. per week.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    Cris - How do you get the best Hormonal response when weight training?

    Cris can give his thoughts but IMHO, there is nothing special you need to do other than lift heavy (for you) weights on a regular basis. Follow whatever program you want, NROLFW, Stronglifts, whatever. Just the doing it causes the hormonal response. It's not really more complicated than that.

    Thank you mmapags! So I'm on the right track at least doing NROLFW. :happy:

    You are! Just keep doing what your doing!!
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    Cris - How do you get the best Hormonal response when weight training?

    Cris can give his thoughts but IMHO, there is nothing special you need to do other than lift heavy (for you) weights on a regular basis. Follow whatever program you want, NROLFW, Stronglifts, whatever. Just the doing it causes the hormonal response. It's not really more complicated than that.

    Yep! This.

    You can also intermittent fast...but some people don't like it. I've been doing it for nearly a year and love it.

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