why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
Replies
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I just going to throw this out there...it isnt all your ovaries fault. Women with PCOS who have had full hysterectomies including the removal of the ovaries have still had the hormonal problems with PCOS, including IR, hair loss, manly hair growth, hormone imbalances, etc0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I think I've cursed it too much for us to ever be cool again, anyway. I'm just glad it hasn't crapped out on me completely yet. It's been working overtime for over a decade.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I just going to throw this out there...it isnt all your ovaries fault. Women with PCOS who have had full hysterectomies including the removal of the ovaries have still had the hormonal problems with PCOS, including IR, hair loss, manly hair growth, hormone imbalances, etc
Awww,, then that wouldn't work either? Maybe I just have to love myself, eat healthy for my body and hormonal issues and exercise!! YES that is what I am going to do-- Novel idea!0 -
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I think I've cursed it too much for us to ever be cool again, anyway. I'm just glad it hasn't crapped out on me completely yet. It's been working overtime for over a decade.
Same here- mine has been working overtime for more than a decade as well- glad it hasn't quit on me0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I just going to throw this out there...it isnt all your ovaries fault. Women with PCOS who have had full hysterectomies including the removal of the ovaries have still had the hormonal problems with PCOS, including IR, hair loss, manly hair growth, hormone imbalances, etc
Awww,, then that wouldn't work either? Maybe I just have to love myself, eat healthy for my body and hormonal issues and exercise!! YES that is what I am going to do-- Novel idea!
LOL love it! I think that's what all of us on here with PCOS are trying to do. Just wanted to say cut your ovaries some slack, it isnt completely their fault.
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I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
I would assume as fruit has carbs, if eating fruit puts you over x amount of crab grams per day then you are no longer "low carb"...
thankfully, I don't have to worry about that...0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kamakazeekim wrote: »I have PCOS and when I tried just CICO I continued gaining weight. Once I was put on metformin and restricted carbs I lost weight like crazy even though my calorie intake actually went up. I realize the typical person without a hormone issue going on probably wouldn't have the same issues that I did.
you are still doing CICO ..you are just using medication to regulate the out side for you ..
I have PCOS and have been on Metformin for years. CICO did not work for me, while on the medication, and I gained weight while eating within my calorie range and working out. Even when varying the amount of exercise calories back or not eating them at all. I measure my food and don't eat junk either.
When I eat low carb I lose weight. My medication hasn't changed and my exercise hasn't changed either, the only thing that has changed is the restricting of carbohydrates. I still eat within my calorie range, still vary eating back my exercise calories, yet now I'm losing weight. For some of us, low carb eating is medically necessary and CICO will never work.
^^^ I have experienced this exact same thing. I think many PCOS'ers have which is why I am guessing the OP opted to say he wasn't talking about those with medical issues.
My experience was the exact same- I was doing calorie restriction- 1600 a day, let MFP set my macros for me, even researched TDEE and IIFYM calculators to see what my macros should be and set them by those. Was working out twice a week with a very good personal trainer and three times a week on my own- did not lose weight.
I also did CICO based on TDEE with a 500 cal cut (as recommended)- without working out while on metformin- did not lose weight.
Now- I am still sticking to my 1600 cals, on metformin and cut carbs as recommended by my doc and nutritionist and I am losing steadily- without exercise. The only difference is that now I am limiting my carbs to 30g a day. I am adding exercise now (just this week) because I want to build muscle. For some of us low carbers as @Babbs1977 says- CICO alone will never work
ARGH!... Just picking a nit!!!! CICO is working. I am picking a nit with your language. You're not the first poster to do this, so sorry for singling you out.
CICO is NOT a way of eating. It's an equation. Calories in, Calories Out. Colloquially, around here, it's used to mean mean putting that equation into practice so that it nets a deficit of energy.
The components of what make up those calories are NOT CICO.
CICO is working for you.... on a diet with its macros balanced to be low carb.
CICO is working for me... on a diet with its macros balanced to be moderate carb.
CICO works for other people on this thread with different macro balances.
Sorry, I just... there has to be a better way to to stop confusing IIFYM with CICO.
And not to be rude or demeaning to you but if you actually read my post instead of quickly scanning through it (an assumption on my part here) - you will find that I NEVER said CICO is NOT working for me. What I said was that CICO ALONE will never work for me- meaning I cannot simply just stick to counting the amount of CALORIES I take in- which I have tried. I HAVE to count carbs AND calories- like I said in other posts- because insulin and my body not using it properly.
I also NEVER said CICO is a way of eating (another assumption on your part) I am fully aware of what it means and the equation it represents.
You are correct I am doing CICO (also stated on another post) but with the macros (which several others have posted as part of CICO) balanced with a lower carb count
Here is where I think the confusion is. My understanding is that CICO without reducing carbs works poorly for people with IR because of compliance problems. Basically, that the insulin resistance means that when you eat carbs you tend to get hungry, triggered to eat more, are not satiated, etc. So the calories consumed end up being hard to control and are actually more.
You seem to be saying that even if you really truly ate 1200 calories of 50% carbs, 50% fat and protein combined that you could not lose (or would gain?). I'm not saying that can't be true--I don't know all that much about insulin resistance or the various other relevant medical conditions here--but I don't understand how it would or could work.
There is a lot of stories and information on people who have tried using the macros the way MFP or other similar sites have set it up and not been able to lose weight. They have made doubly sure they were doing it right and still not lost weight. Once they dropped the carbs, they could eat at the same calorie amounts but then lost weight. It has to do with how the carbs interact with the insulin and other hormones. I dont understand all the science behind it but hormones are weird things and insulin is a hormone.
If you read thru my posts at the first half of this thread, when things were nice, you'll see that I believe in CICO but some medical conditions change the CO part. Hormones is one that can for some people. One study has already been cited here where PCOS women, which is a hormone problem, have lower bmr than those without PCOS and if you have both PCOS and IR your bmr is even lower! So your CO is very off but if you lower the carbs, you have less insulin which can help with weight loss, if you are above your CI.
With insulin resistance, as I've stated before, there is often no blood sugar problem. It is just extremely high levels of insulin. Normal insulin should be around 5 but can go as high as 20 and be counted as normal. Some women who have had their fasting insulin tested have had over 50, one lady was over 100, and had no blood sugar or A1C issue. Once they were on the medication AND lowered carbs they were able to lose weight when thy couldnt before even on being VERY careful to measure and weigh their food correctly.
So compliance is not always an issue. It might be for some but for the majority of those I see, which admittedly is mostly PCOS women with IR, what they eat (carbs vs less carbs) is more important in weight loss than how much they eat. Still CICO but with a different balance of macros needed.
Thanks! I'll go back and check out the studies. Anecdotes without an explanation as to how it physically could work isn't what I'm after, since there's too much of a measurement problem there, but I'm certainly open to the idea that it might affect metabolism.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kamakazeekim wrote: »I have PCOS and when I tried just CICO I continued gaining weight. Once I was put on metformin and restricted carbs I lost weight like crazy even though my calorie intake actually went up. I realize the typical person without a hormone issue going on probably wouldn't have the same issues that I did.
you are still doing CICO ..you are just using medication to regulate the out side for you ..
I have PCOS and have been on Metformin for years. CICO did not work for me, while on the medication, and I gained weight while eating within my calorie range and working out. Even when varying the amount of exercise calories back or not eating them at all. I measure my food and don't eat junk either.
When I eat low carb I lose weight. My medication hasn't changed and my exercise hasn't changed either, the only thing that has changed is the restricting of carbohydrates. I still eat within my calorie range, still vary eating back my exercise calories, yet now I'm losing weight. For some of us, low carb eating is medically necessary and CICO will never work.
^^^ I have experienced this exact same thing. I think many PCOS'ers have which is why I am guessing the OP opted to say he wasn't talking about those with medical issues.
My experience was the exact same- I was doing calorie restriction- 1600 a day, let MFP set my macros for me, even researched TDEE and IIFYM calculators to see what my macros should be and set them by those. Was working out twice a week with a very good personal trainer and three times a week on my own- did not lose weight.
I also did CICO based on TDEE with a 500 cal cut (as recommended)- without working out while on metformin- did not lose weight.
Now- I am still sticking to my 1600 cals, on metformin and cut carbs as recommended by my doc and nutritionist and I am losing steadily- without exercise. The only difference is that now I am limiting my carbs to 30g a day. I am adding exercise now (just this week) because I want to build muscle. For some of us low carbers as @Babbs1977 says- CICO alone will never work
ARGH!... Just picking a nit!!!! CICO is working. I am picking a nit with your language. You're not the first poster to do this, so sorry for singling you out.
CICO is NOT a way of eating. It's an equation. Calories in, Calories Out. Colloquially, around here, it's used to mean mean putting that equation into practice so that it nets a deficit of energy.
The components of what make up those calories are NOT CICO.
CICO is working for you.... on a diet with its macros balanced to be low carb.
CICO is working for me... on a diet with its macros balanced to be moderate carb.
CICO works for other people on this thread with different macro balances.
Sorry, I just... there has to be a better way to to stop confusing IIFYM with CICO.
And not to be rude or demeaning to you but if you actually read my post instead of quickly scanning through it (an assumption on my part here) - you will find that I NEVER said CICO is NOT working for me. What I said was that CICO ALONE will never work for me- meaning I cannot simply just stick to counting the amount of CALORIES I take in- which I have tried. I HAVE to count carbs AND calories- like I said in other posts- because insulin and my body not using it properly.
I also NEVER said CICO is a way of eating (another assumption on your part) I am fully aware of what it means and the equation it represents.
You are correct I am doing CICO (also stated on another post) but with the macros (which several others have posted as part of CICO) balanced with a lower carb count
Here is where I think the confusion is. My understanding is that CICO without reducing carbs works poorly for people with IR because of compliance problems. Basically, that the insulin resistance means that when you eat carbs you tend to get hungry, triggered to eat more, are not satiated, etc. So the calories consumed end up being hard to control and are actually more.
You seem to be saying that even if you really truly ate 1200 calories of 50% carbs, 50% fat and protein combined that you could not lose (or would gain?). I'm not saying that can't be true--I don't know all that much about insulin resistance or the various other relevant medical conditions here--but I don't understand how it would or could work.
There is a lot of stories and information on people who have tried using the macros the way MFP or other similar sites have set it up and not been able to lose weight. They have made doubly sure they were doing it right and still not lost weight. Once they dropped the carbs, they could eat at the same calorie amounts but then lost weight. It has to do with how the carbs interact with the insulin and other hormones. I dont understand all the science behind it but hormones are weird things and insulin is a hormone.
If you read thru my posts at the first half of this thread, when things were nice, you'll see that I believe in CICO but some medical conditions change the CO part. Hormones is one that can for some people. One study has already been cited here where PCOS women, which is a hormone problem, have lower bmr than those without PCOS and if you have both PCOS and IR your bmr is even lower! So your CO is very off but if you lower the carbs, you have less insulin which can help with weight loss, if you are above your CI.
With insulin resistance, as I've stated before, there is often no blood sugar problem. It is just extremely high levels of insulin. Normal insulin should be around 5 but can go as high as 20 and be counted as normal. Some women who have had their fasting insulin tested have had over 50, one lady was over 100, and had no blood sugar or A1C issue. Once they were on the medication AND lowered carbs they were able to lose weight when thy couldnt before even on being VERY careful to measure and weigh their food correctly.
So compliance is not always an issue. It might be for some but for the majority of those I see, which admittedly is mostly PCOS women with IR, what they eat (carbs vs less carbs) is more important in weight loss than how much they eat. Still CICO but with a different balance of macros needed.
Thanks for the info! Agreed!0 -
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
Depending on your macro goals, you could have some fruit. I personally don't because if I eat all my carbs in one shebang, then I find myself hungry. Plus, still need to fit in the veggies. One apple could have 20g or more of carbs.
I'm curious about that poster's ratios because I'm wondering if they are really LCHF. I know low carb could mean to one person anything below 30g and another person thinking 100g is low carb. In additon to fruit, the poster also states they have cut down on ice cream, cakes, etc. This leads me to be curious if they are eating more towards a balanced diet than LCHF.
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Well yeah I totally get that, but it would clearly be eaten in moderation to not go over x amount of carbs right? IDK I must be missing something, but to me the repetition of "fruit" in the post makes it seem like it is off limits. That was my assumption as to why it keeps being said.
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
I would assume as fruit has carbs, if eating fruit puts you over x amount of crab grams per day then you are no longer "low carb"...
thankfully, I don't have to worry about that...
And lucky you!!
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »kamakazeekim wrote: »I have PCOS and when I tried just CICO I continued gaining weight. Once I was put on metformin and restricted carbs I lost weight like crazy even though my calorie intake actually went up. I realize the typical person without a hormone issue going on probably wouldn't have the same issues that I did.
you are still doing CICO ..you are just using medication to regulate the out side for you ..
I have PCOS and have been on Metformin for years. CICO did not work for me, while on the medication, and I gained weight while eating within my calorie range and working out. Even when varying the amount of exercise calories back or not eating them at all. I measure my food and don't eat junk either.
When I eat low carb I lose weight. My medication hasn't changed and my exercise hasn't changed either, the only thing that has changed is the restricting of carbohydrates. I still eat within my calorie range, still vary eating back my exercise calories, yet now I'm losing weight. For some of us, low carb eating is medically necessary and CICO will never work.
^^^ I have experienced this exact same thing. I think many PCOS'ers have which is why I am guessing the OP opted to say he wasn't talking about those with medical issues.
My experience was the exact same- I was doing calorie restriction- 1600 a day, let MFP set my macros for me, even researched TDEE and IIFYM calculators to see what my macros should be and set them by those. Was working out twice a week with a very good personal trainer and three times a week on my own- did not lose weight.
I also did CICO based on TDEE with a 500 cal cut (as recommended)- without working out while on metformin- did not lose weight.
Now- I am still sticking to my 1600 cals, on metformin and cut carbs as recommended by my doc and nutritionist and I am losing steadily- without exercise. The only difference is that now I am limiting my carbs to 30g a day. I am adding exercise now (just this week) because I want to build muscle. For some of us low carbers as @Babbs1977 says- CICO alone will never work
ARGH!... Just picking a nit!!!! CICO is working. I am picking a nit with your language. You're not the first poster to do this, so sorry for singling you out.
CICO is NOT a way of eating. It's an equation. Calories in, Calories Out. Colloquially, around here, it's used to mean mean putting that equation into practice so that it nets a deficit of energy.
The components of what make up those calories are NOT CICO.
CICO is working for you.... on a diet with its macros balanced to be low carb.
CICO is working for me... on a diet with its macros balanced to be moderate carb.
CICO works for other people on this thread with different macro balances.
Sorry, I just... there has to be a better way to to stop confusing IIFYM with CICO.
And not to be rude or demeaning to you but if you actually read my post instead of quickly scanning through it (an assumption on my part here) - you will find that I NEVER said CICO is NOT working for me. What I said was that CICO ALONE will never work for me- meaning I cannot simply just stick to counting the amount of CALORIES I take in- which I have tried. I HAVE to count carbs AND calories- like I said in other posts- because insulin and my body not using it properly.
I also NEVER said CICO is a way of eating (another assumption on your part) I am fully aware of what it means and the equation it represents.
You are correct I am doing CICO (also stated on another post) but with the macros (which several others have posted as part of CICO) balanced with a lower carb count
Here is where I think the confusion is. My understanding is that CICO without reducing carbs works poorly for people with IR because of compliance problems. Basically, that the insulin resistance means that when you eat carbs you tend to get hungry, triggered to eat more, are not satiated, etc. So the calories consumed end up being hard to control and are actually more.
You seem to be saying that even if you really truly ate 1200 calories of 50% carbs, 50% fat and protein combined that you could not lose (or would gain?). I'm not saying that can't be true--I don't know all that much about insulin resistance or the various other relevant medical conditions here--but I don't understand how it would or could work.
There is a lot of stories and information on people who have tried using the macros the way MFP or other similar sites have set it up and not been able to lose weight. They have made doubly sure they were doing it right and still not lost weight. Once they dropped the carbs, they could eat at the same calorie amounts but then lost weight. It has to do with how the carbs interact with the insulin and other hormones. I dont understand all the science behind it but hormones are weird things and insulin is a hormone.
If you read thru my posts at the first half of this thread, when things were nice, you'll see that I believe in CICO but some medical conditions change the CO part. Hormones is one that can for some people. One study has already been cited here where PCOS women, which is a hormone problem, have lower bmr than those without PCOS and if you have both PCOS and IR your bmr is even lower! So your CO is very off but if you lower the carbs, you have less insulin which can help with weight loss, if you are above your CI.
With insulin resistance, as I've stated before, there is often no blood sugar problem. It is just extremely high levels of insulin. Normal insulin should be around 5 but can go as high as 20 and be counted as normal. Some women who have had their fasting insulin tested have had over 50, one lady was over 100, and had no blood sugar or A1C issue. Once they were on the medication AND lowered carbs they were able to lose weight when thy couldnt before even on being VERY careful to measure and weigh their food correctly.
So compliance is not always an issue. It might be for some but for the majority of those I see, which admittedly is mostly PCOS women with IR, what they eat (carbs vs less carbs) is more important in weight loss than how much they eat. Still CICO but with a different balance of macros needed.
Thanks for the info! Agreed!
Also-- thank you for mentioning bmr-- this is also true for myself, so I have lower bmr with PCOS, and IR, and hypothyroidism-- a triple threat.....
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I am not eating fruit either as I am trying to stick to 20 grams right now, but it is still fine to eat fruit while on LCHF.
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
Depending on your macro goals, you could have some fruit. I personally don't because if I eat all my carbs in one shebang, then I find myself hungry. Plus, still need to fit in the veggies. One apple could have 20g or more of carbs.
I'm curious about that poster's ratios because I'm wondering if they are really LCHF. I know low carb could mean to one person anything below 30g and another person thinking 100g is low carb. In additon to fruit, the poster also states they have cut down on ice cream, cakes, etc. This leads me to be curious if they are eating more towards a balanced diet than LCHF.
I just assume you are saying it like it is not allowed.
...but I gotcha
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blktngldhrt wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »
This is a semantical question and not very charitable towards what I posted. Low-carb or low-fat diets are engineered towards behaviors, usually for people who a have a logical disconnect between how many calories they eat and their weight. I suspect it's usually an emotional dysfunction, but I'm not a psychologist and I don't know everyone. Of course people lose weight because they take in fewer calories than they consume, but for whatever reason, they need to count something else or believe in something else that produces those results.
I'm clearly in your camp -- the bottomline/CICO camp. But I'm perfectly fine with a certain amount of delusion if it means a mother or father gets 20 more years with their children/grandchildren (or insert your favorite emotional ploy here). I'm not going to try and correct them (although I am clearly advocating patronizing them here ... whatever works for you).
i didn't read that until your gif.
...seriously? my low carb diet is for the massive amounts of insulin my pancreas produces in response to carbs. not sure my emotional dysfunction has anything to do with it.
Does your pancreas have feewings? Because it does seem a bit dysfunctional. Literally. As in, it's not functioning as it optimally would. I never thought of it as being an emotional issue. Do you think if you did some nice affirmations and self-esteem building talk to your pancreas, it might cool it on the insulin?
MAYBE YOUR PANCREAS JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.
Darn. I could be eating all the candies if I would just learn to love my pancreas..
Sadly-- this wouldn't work for me-- I have to learn to love my ovaries-- they make my pancreas work too hard.... damn ovaries
I just going to throw this out there...it isnt all your ovaries fault. Women with PCOS who have had full hysterectomies including the removal of the ovaries have still had the hormonal problems with PCOS, including IR, hair loss, manly hair growth, hormone imbalances, etc
Awww,, then that wouldn't work either? Maybe I just have to love myself, eat healthy for my body and hormonal issues and exercise!! YES that is what I am going to do-- Novel idea!
LOL love it! I think that's what all of us on here with PCOS are trying to do. Just wanted to say cut your ovaries some slack, it isnt completely their fault.
Ok, slack cut to ovaries BTW- I like you - I didn't read all your original posts- probably will go back and read them now 0 -
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
0 -
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...0 -
I'm sorry to be off topic but I just gagged a littlechristinev297 wrote: »Heres an example. Way back when, I was a member of an egg fast-stall breaker diet page. For 1-2 weeks these people ate nothing but eggs and fat (butter, mayo, coconut oil). The rule was 1 TBS fat per egg. The general amount of eggs consumed were 10-12 per day with the added fat alongside.
The calories were huge and yet the majority lost weigh like crazy!
I can't stand eggs, and I can't stand the thought of eating just eggs and fat. Eggs are the one food I won't touch...
...Unless they're baked in a cake
Same here. I can only eat eggs scrambled or baked in something.0 -
tell me about it!
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...0 -
I am not eating fruit either as I am trying to stick to 20 grams right now, but it is still fine to eat fruit while on LCHF.
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
Depending on your macro goals, you could have some fruit. I personally don't because if I eat all my carbs in one shebang, then I find myself hungry. Plus, still need to fit in the veggies. One apple could have 20g or more of carbs.
I'm curious about that poster's ratios because I'm wondering if they are really LCHF. I know low carb could mean to one person anything below 30g and another person thinking 100g is low carb. In additon to fruit, the poster also states they have cut down on ice cream, cakes, etc. This leads me to be curious if they are eating more towards a balanced diet than LCHF.
I just assume you are saying it like it is not allowed.
...but I gotcha
If you're really missing it, stick to berries. I have no trouble fitting those in, and once in a while I'll plan out to make room for melon, but only in the summer (the ones in the winter are too bland to be worth it).0 -
I know nothing about PCOS, what I do know about is blood sugar and insulin issues (at least those that apply to my own hypoglycemia) however I just want to toss this little fact out there:
One of the symptoms of undiagnosed diabetes is unexpected weight loss (type 1 ) or unexpected weight gain (type 2). Unexpected meaning they aren't intentionally cutting calories or working out more, I haven't searched for a research study's (I'm on my phone and it's a pain) but it implies that uncontrolled sugars, or insulin effects calorie output.0 -
Thanks, but I barely even eat fruit when not low carbing. I was just trying to make a point that it is okay to have it in moderation on LCHF.
I am not eating fruit either as I am trying to stick to 20 grams right now, but it is still fine to eat fruit while on LCHF.
I am not understanding what that person is getting at either but you keep mentioning the fruit thing, but fruit can be eaten on a LCHF. Not all fruit, but fruit can be eaten. I am not sure why you keep mentioning fruit like it is off limits or someone is not LCHF when eating it. *shrugs*lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
Depending on your macro goals, you could have some fruit. I personally don't because if I eat all my carbs in one shebang, then I find myself hungry. Plus, still need to fit in the veggies. One apple could have 20g or more of carbs.
I'm curious about that poster's ratios because I'm wondering if they are really LCHF. I know low carb could mean to one person anything below 30g and another person thinking 100g is low carb. In additon to fruit, the poster also states they have cut down on ice cream, cakes, etc. This leads me to be curious if they are eating more towards a balanced diet than LCHF.
I just assume you are saying it like it is not allowed.
...but I gotcha
If you're really missing it, stick to berries. I have no trouble fitting those in, and once in a while I'll plan out to make room for melon, but only in the summer (the ones in the winter are too bland to be worth it).
I only miss pizza!! Trying to make one just won't compare to a good NY pie
0 -
blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
I don't because my ratios are more at keto level. I would eat some berries here and there but not go eating an orange.
0 -
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
I mean..i eat 5% net carbs..sometimes below not usually above (except last Thursday was 10% I think because..road trip, nxt, and beer). So, that puts me around 18-27g net per day (depending on exercise) and I have about 70-140g of frozen berries (mix of strawberry, blueberry, cranberry, cherry, and raspberry) most nights. I also have vegetables with 2-3 meals a day. I'm in ketosis.
I've also had low carb ice cream and make things like Cheesecake and biscotti that fit into my 5%. I don't know. I don't get it.0 -
Well no one said anything about going to eat an orange, but you can have fruit, ice cream, and other desserts while on keto.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
I don't because my ratios are more at keto level. I would eat some berries here and there but not go eating an orange.
0 -
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
too many rules...
Rules? Keep your macros at 5% net carb 20% protein and 75% fat..give or take a few percent for each (whatever works best)..drink enough fluids and keep your sodium up. Done. 0 -
Oh good, so I'm reading right! and I do a hell of a lot of reading on this stuff sheesh my head is going to pop off!blktngldhrt wrote: »
This was my other thought. I follow the reddit/keto boards and I always read that anything under 50 g of carbs as long as it fits is fine. I mean unless it interferes with your goals. Or if you are lower in carbs. Idk this low carb stuff is giving me a headache, but I have no gastric issues right now so I shall stick with it. Ugh.blktngldhrt wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Long term, not having big bags of chips and cookies and pretzels, and half-gallon containers of ice cream in my house, have worked out very well for me long-term. Yes, I admit it - I lack willpower. And so do most people.
I've also dumped cereal because the amount I need to eat for breakfast is 2.5 times the serving suggested on the box. My breakfast "diet food" is one egg, a strip of bacon, and some grilled onions.
I could care less about balanced macros. My grandparents lived past 90 at the right weight without knowing their balanced macros. But they ate good food, and had no junk in the house.
PS - I get most of my carbs from fruit and vegetables.
What are your ratios if you eat fruit then? Fruit has sugar?
The sugar I'm getting from fruit is a lot less than the sugar I was getting from cookies and ice cream.
It's entirely possible to control the amount of cookies and ice cream you eat without being LCHF. In fact, amusingly enough, the majority of calories in both are probably from fat, so HCLF people probably aren't eating lots of either.
There's a lot less sugar in potatoes or oatmeal or whole wheat pasta, to pick three major sources of carbs I've had this week, than in fruit (which I've also had, also ice cream, for full disclosure, which I easily can eat a serving of). So not really sure why you are making the discussion about "sugar."
You also didn't answer the question Mel asked.
OK. How about the calories I am getting from fruit is a lot less than the calories I used to get from cookies, cake, chips, pretzels, ice cream and other junk (which I still eat by the way, but at a reduction of about 90% from my previous levels).
I'm sure that's true, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion or with your claim that LCHF works better than other ways to diet (lots of books on amazon, no books on HCLF, people in general just eat less on LCHF, etc.).
That's my confusion Onlythetruth. You talk about low carbs and about all these LCHF books, but you eat fruit and still eat ice cream, cake, etc. I don't really see that as LCHF...probably eating a balanced diet (the sense of what people eat). Even if you cut down, I just wonder how much you cut if you consider yourself low carb.
You can't eat fruit on low carb? There are also low carb ice cream and baked goods recipes.
I mean..i eat 5% net carbs..sometimes below not usually above (except last Thursday was 10% I think because..road trip, nxt, and beer). So, that puts me around 18-27g net per day (depending on exercise) and I have about 70-140g of frozen berries (mix of strawberry, blueberry, cranberry, cherry, and raspberry) most nights. I also have vegetables with 2-3 meals a day. I'm in ketosis.
I've also had low carb ice cream and make things like Cheesecake and biscotti that fit into my 5%. I don't know. I don't get it.
Also good to know, since I am new at following this keto thing. I have done atkins but that was like 10 years ago and a lot has changed.
0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »Also, why do you insist people are "confused?" Keto food is generally more calorie dense, therefore lower volume, not the other way around. You need a lot of broccoli to match the calories in a filet with a pat of butter on top. People get to eat til they're full, that's the difference, it has nothing to do with volume. Higher fat with adequate protein makes someone feel full faster than higher carb.
So you're saying that I can eat 2000 calories worth of fish, fried in fat if I wanted to and I'll lose weight?
no, I think she is saying that your diet is composed of such a high fat% that you are satiated by eating less…
at least that is my understanding….
I didn't finish reading all the comments (15 pages, I'm also trying to work), BUT I am trying an experiment on myself. I'm only on day 3 of the low carb thing (20 or less net carbs a day) and the first two days I ate 3,000 calories a day. Yikes! Still took a long time for me to feel full. Don't know if this is something that comes later or not. I hope so.
CICO was working for me in the beginning and I was losing weight but I've been hungry lately and not working out as much as I should.
BTW- I did read the thread and your comments that spurred this new thread.
Disclaimer - I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes April 2014.
0
This discussion has been closed.
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