always friendzoned - advice?

lydiakitten

pr3pared wrote: »

I would really like to see how do the people who flip when they hear the term friendzone react when a woman friend complains about being friendzoned by a guy whom she's set on orbiting around, unrequited. The friendzone is toxic and one should take their leave asap, and that's what I say to those women. No "it doesn't exist" or "blah blah genders". I generally agree that it's a narrative frequently used in sexist speech and should be fought against, but maybe not on top of someone's problems.

But it's also good to suggest to stop girlfriend-zoning women, OP. Make more women friends. And male friends, you mention asking women for advice but seem to be lacking your peers' input. Take some time off dating, try to lose the desperation, reassess later.

Because my best friend has been in this situation where she had a huge crush on a male friend she'd been around for years, I'll tell you what my reaction was; that the "friendzone" doesn't exist, regardless of the genders involved, that he is evidently not into her as a partner, that she should just learn to appreciate being friends with him since he genuinely adores her as a friend, and romantically move on, without begrudging him anything. The "friendzone" is only toxic if you consider friendship a demotion or a punishment. I personally feel that friendship can be just as meaningful and often more long-lasting than affairs/flings/dating, and should not be something to rage against.


But I will completely agree with the second paragraph there.

TheLegendaryBrandonHarris

lydiakitten wrote:

In this entire thread, it's been women saying "we don't actually "friendzone" people, this doesn't exist, we just try to be nice to people who are nice to us, stop trying to emotionally guilt-trip us into dating someone" and "we are attracted to who we are attracted to, you know, we all have our own criteria"

I agree with every letter of this except for the claim that the 'friend zone' doesn't exist. It does, and we all know it---I just don't understand what's so difficult to accept.
Man likes Woman
Woman likes Man
Man wants a physical relationship.
Woman does not want a physical relationship
They both continue to spend time together
Welcome to the Friend Zone.

One party does not put the other in the Zone on purpose. It happens naturally when one is not physically attracted to the other.

lydiakitten wrote:

and then men responding with "no, let me, a man who does not have the experience of having been a woman, tell you what you think and what you want and how you function, because all of you girls are some kind of hivemind that follows specific patterns that I have unlocked".

Perhaps that is a paraphrase of someone else's comment, but I have said that women are not the best sources of advice for a man trying to date women, for the same reasons you mentioned above. The op is a man trying to date women. What you're saying is like telling a personal trainer that they can't help you get in shape because they've never been out of shape themselves. I've never been a woman, but I have experience with dating women and I have a bit of knowledge on what will more likely lead to a relationship and what won't. I'm not trying to be mean.

lydiakitten wrote:

Why does every single man feel more entitled to knowing what women think and feel than the women themselves? Trust us when we tell you things, we are not all that dumb and emotional that we have no clue as to how we function.

I answered this above, but to go a bit further, I don't know what anyone else thinks. I do, however, go by the response I get and have to extrapolate thoughts or feelings from there.

lydiakitten wrote:

As for leading people on... when most men react to rejection by being derisive, violent, vitriolic, sending texts like "you were a **** anyway I was doing you a favour" and generally lashing out, sometimes surprisingly hurtfully, a lot of girls are genuinely unwilling to be openly dismissing and writhe internally, not knowing how to handle the situation. Trust me, you have no idea how often the topic of "I want him to stop pursuing me but I don't know how to make him without being rude to him and making him angry and having him lash out, and frankly I don't even know how to be rude to begin with" comes up in girl-girl discussion.

This is chump behavior from small men. My sister receives this treatment from chumps quite often and it's sad. As a man who genuinely likes women and enjoys their company, and who also understands how attraction works, I find this behavior despicable.
Attraction is not something that can be conjured up at will. If a woman is not attracted to me, it's not her fault. She may not be interested in men right now. She may have other things going on in her life. So it will usually be no one's fault that she's not into me, or I did something stupid.

Markdjones83

TLDR

spulia1

@eraser51 I want to give you some actual advice. Forget about whether or not the friendzone actually exists or whatever. Clearly you feel frustrated because your very real and valid human needs aren't being met and you're working really hard to no avail.

Yes. No one owes you sex no matter how nice or attractive or interesting or whatever you are. There is nothing you can do to make someone want to have sex with you or love you or whatever, that's not in your control.

What you control is your behavior. That's it. Stop trying to shape your behavior to get you to a goal. You're working way too hard. Treat yourself better. The problem here isn't that women don't give you what you want or need. The problem is that YOU don't meet your own needs. That you'll feel unsatisfied without the validation from women. That's a crap way to live and you deserve better than that. Think very carefully about the sort of person you want to be and what are the important things in your life. Act in ways that move you towards what you value, not away from what feels *kitten*. In other words, if you're trying to not be alone, brother you are in trouble.

HumboldtFred

I see that we don't agree on what we don't know or perceive what we think we understand differently in situations that are constantly changing, individual, and unique.

I don't have many female "friends." Outside of work (where we count on each other for our very lives every day) I have few women buddies. If I want to go fishing I have two male friends whom I go fishing with. If I want to go hunting or shooting or flying or riding my motorcycle same deal. I don't hang out with women with the anticipation of romantic relationships, so I have never really experienced the friend-zone or I never picked up on it because I wasn't expecting otherwise. I am leery of guys with a bunch of female friends. What do they offer that males don't ? I will say that while I have no romantic expectations the two women I consider friends would be my first choice for mates. I am already invested in caring for them deeply. I know all about them so I will not discover some "deal breaker" later, and I am friends with them because they are fantastically interesting, beautiful, vibrant people.

When I date someone it is quickly evident whether any further romantic inclinations are to be forthcoming on both sides. Sometimes it takes a few outings to see, but it shows up fairly quickly. I date under the caveat that I may need some time to see if I "like" someone, but I know if I do not like them right away. I am a happy, content bachelor, and absolutely love the life I lead. I feel no missing part or emptiness from being single. This sets me apart from many of the women I date. I am very forthcoming from the perspective that I am not looking to be married or have more children by some date or deadline, or ever if that is the case. Is it possible? Absolutely, it is just not my end goal. Because I won't sleep with someone I am not emotionally in love with, I don't have empty sex screwing up my dating relationships either.

Maybe the best way to avoid the friend-zone is to foster male relationships for non-romantic pursuits and let the romantic side work itself out with potential partners who are like minded.....

yopeeps025

quintoespada wrote: »

The phrase 'friend zone' makes me so angry. Even had a 14 year old use it on me once - and I'd told her 'No, we can't date' because I was 23! It really has to stop being spread around society as if it's okay to expect people to date you just because you're nice to them. That's ridiculous. Seems a bit shallow, too, doesn't it - to expect someone to give you something just because you're acting like a decent human being to them?

Hmm don't know how such a little girl would get an impression without . . . .

mumblemagic

lookin4gains wrote: »

Perhaps I should clarify. My comment is strictly from my experience. I've met women who outwardly admit they do this. My opinion Is based on what I've seen and heard. Reguardless if you agree or not, it happens. Was my comment a blanket statement accusing all women of doing this? Of course not. It was simply my observation of what I've seen. I've talked to women who do this on purpose to make them feel better about their self esteem. Even though I don't agree with their choice I still respect the honesty. If your not a woman that does this than kudos to you.

Yet another condescending and over generalising remark. Kudos for not being a b*tch? Please.

I am sure it happens that a small minority of women lead guys on for the sake of it. I am also sure that the overwhelming number of times a guy feels he has been "lead on" were not deliberate, and not malicious. Sometimes women are friendly and this is misinterpreted. Sometimes a woman is beginning to "feel it" but the guy goes too fast so she turns him down.

And let's not forget, just because you think a woman is flirting with you, doesn't mean she is obliged to sleep with you.

thisdizzy_dreamer

mumblemagic wrote: »

Yet another condescending and over generalising remark. Kudos for not being a b*tch? Please.

I am sure it happens that a small minority of women lead guys on for the sake of it. I am also sure that the overwhelming number of times a guy feels he has been "lead on" were not deliberate, and not malicious. Sometimes women are friendly and this is misinterpreted. Sometimes a woman is beginning to "feel it" but the guy goes too fast so she turns him down.

And let's not forget, just because you think a woman is flirting with you, doesn't mean she is obliged to sleep with you.

This exactly. Who in their right mind developed this concept that you absolutely MUST date every single person you talk to on a dating site. Sometimes you start out talking to them with at least a mild interest in them, and then learn over time through extensive conversation that you two just aren't very compatible or that you don't have strong enough feelings for them. You may still enjoy their company, and how awkward would it be to just up and stop talking to them, or even to send a message saying, "I have no interest in dating you so let's stop talking completely." I have made several friends off of dating sites. Every single one of them I had an interest in dating at first, and by no means did I ever mean to get any feelings crossed. But those same guys are going to be the ones that have no problem finding nice girls because they respected my feelings and never used that stupid "friend zoned" crap.

emdeesea

The friendzone only exists in your own mind, guys. You put yourself there and allow yourself to be be there.

You like girl. Girl doesn't like you that way.

You can either do one of two things:

1. Stick around and be her shoulder to cry on, be her "friend" hoping that she'll "come around," and be a bitter whiny "nice guy" when she goes out with someone else (because she's ALREADY TOLD YOU she's not interested in you)... or

2. You can act like an adult, walk away, and find someone who IS interested in you.

Your choice. But if you pick number one, that's on you. Own it. Making excuses is weak.

mumblemagic

TheLegendaryBrandonHarris wrote: »

lydiakitten wrote:

In this entire thread, it's been women saying "we don't actually "friendzone" people, this doesn't exist, we just try to be nice to people who are nice to us, stop trying to emotionally guilt-trip us into dating someone" and "we are attracted to who we are attracted to, you know, we all have our own criteria"

I agree with every letter of this except for the claim that the 'friend zone' doesn't exist. It does, and we all know it---I just don't understand what's so difficult to accept.
Man likes Woman
Woman likes Man
Man wants a physical relationship.
Woman does not want a physical relationship
They both continue to spend time together
Welcome to the Friend Zone.

One party does not put the other in the Zone on purpose. It happens naturally when one is not physically attracted to the other.

lydiakitten wrote:

and then men responding with "no, let me, a man who does not have the experience of having been a woman, tell you what you think and what you want and how you function, because all of you girls are some kind of hivemind that follows specific patterns that I have unlocked".

Perhaps that is a paraphrase of someone else's comment, but I have said that women are not the best sources of advice for a man trying to date women, for the same reasons you mentioned above. The op is a man trying to date women. What you're saying is like telling a personal trainer that they can't help you get in shape because they've never been out of shape themselves. I've never been a woman, but I have experience with dating women and I have a bit of knowledge on what will more likely lead to a relationship and what won't. I'm not trying to be mean.

lydiakitten wrote:

Why does every single man feel more entitled to knowing what women think and feel than the women themselves? Trust us when we tell you things, we are not all that dumb and emotional that we have no clue as to how we function.

I answered this above, but to go a bit further, I don't know what anyone else thinks. I do, however, go by the response I get and have to extrapolate thoughts or feelings from there.

lydiakitten wrote:

As for leading people on... when most men react to rejection by being derisive, violent, vitriolic, sending texts like "you were a **** anyway I was doing you a favour" and generally lashing out, sometimes surprisingly hurtfully, a lot of girls are genuinely unwilling to be openly dismissing and writhe internally, not knowing how to handle the situation. Trust me, you have no idea how often the topic of "I want him to stop pursuing me but I don't know how to make him without being rude to him and making him angry and having him lash out, and frankly I don't even know how to be rude to begin with" comes up in girl-girl discussion.

This is chump behavior from small men. My sister receives this treatment from chumps quite often and it's sad. As a man who genuinely likes women and enjoys their company, and who also understands how attraction works, I find this behavior despicable.
Attraction is not something that can be conjured up at will. If a woman is not attracted to me, it's not her fault. She may not be interested in men right now. She may have other things going on in her life. So it will usually be no one's fault that she's not into me, or I did something stupid.

Since our first clash I have come to realise that I actually agree with you on a lot of things. Your suggestions to OP about taking care of himself and his possessions are traits that make a good impression, even if they are not the primary things a woman is looking for.

Your point about the Friendzone existing is valid, if you define Friendzone as being a relationship with unrequited attraction, but Friendzone has come to be a derogatory term. It is used by people (both genders I presume although all my experience of its use is by men) who feel an unusual level of anger and entitlement when their advances are met with rejection. In this context its use implies that friendship is not valuable, and the only purpose for being in any sort of relationship with a member of the opposite sex is to sleep with them. It is often used in misogynistic rants by Men's Rights Activists with some pretty unpleasant views of women. It is used in the general population by Nice Guys who think they are entitled to sex for simply being nice to women. For this reason, I do not think calling a friendship with unrequited attraction the Friendzone is a good idea - it cheapens the friendship and makes you sound like a pr*ck, even if you are not one!

However, I notice that you do not refute feeling 'more entitled to knowing what women think and feel than the women themselves'. Am I to assume that you do feel entitled to know more about what women think and feel? Or that you actually mean you don't feel more entitled to know more about what women think and feel than women, but you do feel your advice on how to be a guy dating women is valid?

RE: the chumps who react violently to rejection. I agree with you that these guys are small-minded men. However, the fact that your sister gets these responses often is actually a reflection of the experience of many of my female friends and colleagues. Sadly this is an indication that these chumps are a lot more prevalent than we would like. On occasion it has taken me several attempts to get a guy to leave me alone, even when I have told them I have a boyfriend. "So we can have a casual thing" was a response on one occasion. "Where is he now though?" was another, as if we are not allowed to go out without our boyfriends.

Do you have any suggestions for how to tell guys we are not interested, politely, that leaves no room for attempts at "negotiation"?

johnnylakis

When I started being myself is when I met my wife. That was 19 years ago. No one will want you until you want yourself.

wwstewart

Here's the only thing that will work: if you want to get out of the friendzone, find someone who doesn't want you to be just a friend. If they put you in the FZ, be happy that you can be their friend and support them in their happiness, but don't let yourself get stuck in a delusion. Be great friends, but don't even bother dating. The only way the FZ will change is if they want it to, so don't dwell on it.

ButBurgersAreDelicious

eraser51 wrote: »

Hey!

Would love to get some advice.....

I tried a couple of times to pick up girls per online dating (30-40 dates) and it also worked couple of times (3-5). Had some short relationships and ONS but it hardly ever lasted and also werent that much

I read A LOT of books on flirting and similiar subjects but have no idea what to do really. I dont really buy in that PUA stuff.. but especially the "daygame" , at least so to say, is what I really lack despite being on campus right now... I am just shy somehow and dont know how I get over it...

do you guys have some serious advice?

I asked a couple of Friends (female) and ex-GF for advice but usually get.. "time isnt right" ...."just be yourself"..... "you will find her".. and stuff like that



Also thought about trying NoFap to lessen social anxiety of girls a bit; but am I not objectifing the girls even more because I know its only possible to get sex with the girls?
Do they like to be looked at (sexually)?




What do girls care for (first)?
Looks? Sympathy? Weight? Stature?

How do you girls give hints to the guy?
Just eye contact? or something else?


Should I approach in the supermarket/studio/on their regular schedule?
What if they dont see me/notice me? Do they feel overwhelmed`? Insecure? Suprised?

I would really suggest not thinking that you're in a "friendzone" with any person. Friend Zones DO NOT EXIST. They don't exist!

The reason they don't exist is because, the idea of a Friend Zone is when you are nice and friendly, and thus suddenly GET to be in a romantic relationship with someone. Let's be clear if you are nice and friendly towards someone, it doesn't automatically mean that you are entitled to a realtionship with that person. Please keep that in mind for the rest of my post.

If someone is interested in you, and you are interested in them, it will happen. If they are not interested in you and you are interested in them, it will not happen. This is pretty simple stuff.

Each woman will want something different, and will flirt differently, because there is no manual. Just like each man will want something different. You shouldn't be surprised to hear that there is no set number of rules to "Get the Girl".

Join a club, talk to people, shyness doesn't go away without hard work, so maybe work on that before you try to meet girls.

As for if they like to be looked at sexually. I would ask your female family members if they enjoy when random men size them up sexually in public. I will wager that you can guess the answer.

If you are approaching ANYONE in public. DO it kindly, and try to keep the creep factor down. Read their social cues, and don't press the issue if it is a down right rejection.

MarziPanda95

emdeesea wrote: »

The friendzone only exists in your own mind, guys. You put yourself there and allow yourself to be be there.

You like girl. Girl doesn't like you that way.

You can either do one of two things:

1. Stick around and be her shoulder to cry on, be her "friend" hoping that she'll "come around," and be a bitter whiny "nice guy" when she goes out with someone else (because she's ALREADY TOLD YOU she's not interested in you)... or

2. You can act like an adult, walk away, and find someone who IS interested in you.

Your choice. But if you pick number one, that's on you. Own it. Making excuses is weak.

Um, or number 3, you could continue to be her friend without all the whining that number 1 entails? You could gracefully accept that she's not interested in you in that way, and continue to be on good terms with her, as a friend? They don't have to walk away.

ButBurgersAreDelicious

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

emdeesea

Um, or number 3, you could continue to be her friend without all the whining that number 1 entails? You could gracefully accept that she's not interested in you in that way, and continue to be on good terms with her, as a friend? They don't have to walk away.

Um, if he's going to whine about not dating her and create some excuse like "the friendzone" then walking away is the most responsible adult-like choice, wouldn't you agree?

Adults don't have a problem not getting what they want; children do.

mumblemagic

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

ETA - I know the creepy guy in the lift is not representative of all US guys. But the general feeling of harassment from being chatted up by multiple guys every day left me feeling really uncomfortable and took away from the otherwise lovely holiday.

Also - this is not a discouragement to talk to girls. Do. Just don't be pushy about it.

Kalici

mumblemagic wrote: »

lookin4gains wrote: »

Perhaps I should clarify. My comment is strictly from my experience. I've met women who outwardly admit they do this. My opinion Is based on what I've seen and heard. Reguardless if you agree or not, it happens. Was my comment a blanket statement accusing all women of doing this? Of course not. It was simply my observation of what I've seen. I've talked to women who do this on purpose to make them feel better about their self esteem. Even though I don't agree with their choice I still respect the honesty. If your not a woman that does this than kudos to you.

Yet another condescending and over generalising remark. Kudos for not being a b*tch? Please.

I am sure it happens that a small minority of women lead guys on for the sake of it. I am also sure that the overwhelming number of times a guy feels he has been "lead on" were not deliberate, and not malicious. Sometimes women are friendly and this is misinterpreted. Sometimes a woman is beginning to "feel it" but the guy goes too fast so she turns him down.

What?! No, he called me special! In fact he called me a special snowflake. I'm not like all the other women he knows. You can all stop searching now for I am the special snowflake!

ButBurgersAreDelicious

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.