I called oatmeal cookies unhealthy and I got blasted - why?
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Well if you dip a stick of butter into sugar, you have constructed a "shame stick" according to Andy on According to Jim.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Oatmeal cookies have a ton of butter and sugar so it would make sense why og poster was trying to find alternative recipes. If I eat fruit and top it with whipped cream it doesn't make it healthy because it's based with fruit. My point was there are 2 categories of food and it should be ok to differentiate between them... In my opinion that's the realistic way of looking at it. If you want to sugar coat it and say all foods are healthy then I guess that works for you.
again- what's inherently wrong with butter and sugar.0 -
tephanies1234 wrote: »
I crave sweet cherries and can pop 4lbs of them in my mouth in one sitting if I allow myself. Are they then in the same category as cookies?
I have a huge problem with cherries.
My area is overgrown with both sweet and sour cherries.
I go mountain biking (~30km roundtrip) and eat about 1000 calories worth of cherries. Totally worth it!
Somehow I keep losing weight... Huh, imagine that...0 -
I liked this thread better when it was all cookie recipes. All this arguing over semantics makes me tired.Can we just agree that for some people, there are gateway foods? Foods that stress their willpower and make them more likely to fail to stay within their calorie goal. So maybe people are angry and call them "bad" foods?
I get that. For me cookies and beer are both gateway foods. I could give up beer altogether, but I'm learning will power by limiting myself to one finely crafted beer every couple of days. Yes, I go over my calories all the time. I'm a stress eater. I didn't even admit that until recently. I eat and drink beer to soothe myself. But the beer or cookie isn't a "bad" food. I have a self control and stress management problem. I'm not going to demonize a perfectly ok cookie or DIPA.
The OP is taking a far different approach than I ever could trying to eat large portions of "healthy" foods. I'm not going to eat a whole head of broccoli because it will fill me up. That isn't going to solve my stress problem and it will probably give me the runs. I rather learn to eat 1 or 2 cookies or drink 1 beer (which I'm actually getting much better at). Then I'll feel better and won't spend the night in the bathroom. The added benefit is that maybe I'll be a better person with better ways to manage stress and better self control.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »esmesqualor wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
You're right. It's mind-boggling.
I agree, it's idiotic. Foods may not necessarily be Unhealthy (like oatmeal cookies in moderation) but they are certainly not healthy! Many people when attempting to lose weight (and other times) would like to make all of the calories that go in to their bodies actually nutritious. I think this is a great goal! Why put "empty" calories in to one's body when it can be avoided. Not to say that there should't be room for some treats now and then, just don't fool yourself in to thinking you are doing something good for yourself!
Because health is a lot more than what you put in your body. And sometimes the enjoyment of eating a cookie or ice cream goes a long way for mental health. Daily Klondikes have kept me in the game for a long time. When i cut them all out, while going paleo, i binged. So let me ask you what is more healthy. .. a diet that is 90% nutrient dense and 10% personal enjoyment or a diet where i binge?
So my "idotic" diet has been my success. And i know its success because all my numbers improve and i keep hitting PRs every lifting session.
Sure, I have the occasional cookie or ice cream myself. However, the comment we were responding to was about criticizing the desire to reduce excess sugar and pretending junk food is nutritionally healthy. Good for mental health is another issue
MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
Excess anything is bad for you.. even water. Unfortunately, NO ONE has ever defined excess. This is why many of us track our macronutrients to ensure we get adequate protein, and whole foods from a variety of sources. And while my diary is sporadic (I am just lazy at this point, lol), you can surely look at it to give your opinion.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No. I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
Not everyone has uncontrollable cravings for sweets after only eating 1 or 2. Again, that is not a problem with the food, it is the problem with the one eating the food...
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
I taught my kids that it is important to have all the proper nutrients in their diet. Treats like cookies are okay, but in moderation. But guess what ... I also had to teach them that apples are great, but in moderation (otherwise, they boys would eat 3-4 a day, which wouldn't leave room for other foods with nutrients that apples don't have, like protein and iron).
How would you explain to a child that something is "bad" or "unhealthy" but you can still have it in moderation? That seems like a contradiction. We teach that tobacco and alcohol are not good for you, so don't have them at all ... then how do you differentiate that kind of unhealthy from that of a cookie?
Just because it's not generally advantageous to have half a cookies doesn't mean that eating one or two in a day is harmful to your health. Like others have said, it's the context of the overall diet, and lifestyle in general, that determines health.0 -
enterdanger wrote: »I liked this thread better when it was all cookie recipes. All this arguing over semantics makes me tired.Can we just agree that for some people, there are gateway foods? Foods that stress their willpower and make them more likely to fail to stay within their calorie goal. So maybe people are angry and call them "bad" foods?
I get that. For me cookies and beer are both gateway foods. I could give up beer altogether, but I'm learning will power by limiting myself to one finely crafted beer every couple of days. Yes, I go over my calories all the time. I'm a stress eater. I didn't even admit that until recently. I eat and drink beer to soothe myself. But the beer or cookie isn't a "bad" food. I have a self control and stress management problem. I'm not going to demonize a perfectly ok cookie or DIPA.
The OP is taking a far different approach than I ever could trying to eat large portions of "healthy" foods. I'm not going to eat a whole head of broccoli because it will fill me up. That isn't going to solve my stress problem and it will probably give me the runs. I rather learn to eat 1 or 2 cookies or drink 1 beer (which I'm actually getting much better at). Then I'll feel better and won't spend the night in the bathroom. The added benefit is that maybe I'll be a better person with better ways to manage stress and better self control.
But ....
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
If you think that is what people are saying then you aren't comprehending what people are typing.
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Actually what we are saying, is if you eat a well balanced meal, hit your nutrient goals (macro and micros) and have room for a 255 calorie cookie, you could.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
Look at my diary and you will see a 250 calorie Klondike almost night.
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No one is even remotely suggesting that...WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
Indeed...WorkInProgress909 wrote: »I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous.
No. Don't have the energy to explain this to you anymore...WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
What....no one said those things.
This thread is making me hangry.0 -
A. There is no junk food.kshama2001 wrote: »esmesqualor wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »MFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
You're right. It's mind-boggling.
I agree, it's idiotic. Foods may not necessarily be Unhealthy (like oatmeal cookies in moderation) but they are certainly not healthy! Many people when attempting to lose weight (and other times) would like to make all of the calories that go in to their bodies actually nutritious. I think this is a great goal! Why put "empty" calories in to one's body when it can be avoided. Not to say that there should't be room for some treats now and then, just don't fool yourself in to thinking you are doing something good for yourself!
Because health is a lot more than what you put in your body. And sometimes the enjoyment of eating a cookie or ice cream goes a long way for mental health. Daily Klondikes have kept me in the game for a long time. When i cut them all out, while going paleo, i binged. So let me ask you what is more healthy. .. a diet that is 90% nutrient dense and 10% personal enjoyment or a diet where i binge?
So my "idotic" diet has been my success. And i know its success because all my numbers improve and i keep hitting PRs every lifting session.
Sure, I have the occasional cookie or ice cream myself. However, the comment we were responding to was about criticizing the desire to reduce excess sugar and pretending junk food is nutritionally healthy. Good for mental health is another issueMFP has a... thing about this. I have never seen a diet and fitness site like this before. People get criticized for avoiding excess sugar, junk food, highly processed items, etc. I may very occasionally permit myself such an item, but I'm not going to pretend it's *healthy* AKA high in nutrients, because it isn't! Folks will equate the "processing" of placing fruit or vegetables in a bag with the processing of mashing things to a pulp, adding a ton of preservatives, artificial flavors and salt, and frying it. To avoid criticism, the only thing to do is to eat healthy for your own sake but never mention it anywhere but on your own home page. *smh*
B. All foods have nutritions, which means all food is nutritious in one form or another, and so healthy can only be determined in context. For most people with normally full bellies broccoli is probably healthier than a twinkie, but find someone starving to death, I'd say the twinkie is healthier.0 -
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The problem is the poster is probably on a lower calorie diet and has little room for treats...
Actually what we are saying, is if you eat a well balanced meal, hit your nutrient goals (macro and micros) and have room for a 255 calorie cookie, you could.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
Look at my diary and you will see a 250 calorie Klondike almost night.0 -
So what's the problem then?WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
If you think that is what people are saying then you aren't comprehending what people are typing.
No I get it, you are saying no food should be labelled bad because it is really about the diet as a whole, portions, total calories etc.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it.
No one has ever suggested that a cookie and broccoli are identical or that there's anything wrong with acknowledging the differences. Indeed, my approach is to understand the foods I eat and how they fit into my diet and contribute to my nutritional needs, and thus not have to make up silly stuff about "bad" and "good."
What people (specifically me) disagree with is that those differences mean the cookie is "unhealthy" or that broccoli is always and in every situation a better choice. I eat lots of broccoli (had it in my omelet this morning, along with the fruit I mentioned above, spinach, yogurt--well, the fruit and yogurt was on the side). Yet never have I found broccoli to ALWAYS be the best choice for food. If that were the case I'd eat only broccoli, and that would make for both a boring, unsatisfying diet and an unhealthy one.You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Could you try to phrase this more clearly? I'm not following.
However, the cookie has lots of calories, the broccoli has many vitamins, but not all the kinds of vitamins and other nutrients that we need, so we need a variety of vegetables and a variety of foods, seems reasonably clear to me. Not sure what a 5 year old has to do with it -- the "we have our meals, which should be balanced and include vegetables" and then its okay to have a little something for dessert seems more appropriate for that age. When I was that age we didn't even always have dessert and unlimited cookies simply wasn't a thing. Nor were we permitted to not eat vegetables.0 -
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Again yes, certain foods are nutrient dense and certain foods are calorie dense. Those are the distinctions. Not healthy or unhealthy...WorkInProgress909 wrote: »My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it.0 -
The problem is the poster is probably on a lower calorie diet and has little room for treats...
Actually what we are saying, is if you eat a well balanced meal, hit your nutrient goals (macro and micros) and have room for a 255 calorie cookie, you could.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
Look at my diary and you will see a 250 calorie Klondike almost night.
Oh without a doubt. But she could have one serving of ice cream which is around 160 calories or a couple of oreos. I only get a high calorie treat because I am pretty active and male.
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
You keep missing the part where we discuss the nutritional profile of each, especially within the context of the entire diet. Say I'm know I'm having a lot of veggies at dinner (for example, we make an really awesome chicken veggie stir fry ... mmmm veggies). Then bread and butter may make more sense for lunch than a salad. Or if I'm in a hurry in the morning and don't have time for traditional oatmeal. A couple of cookies made with raisins may suit my needs much better than a bar of some sort.
Of course, cookies for breakfast, bread & butter for lunch, and fast food for dinner on a regular basis won't promote good health. But then, that's the overall diet, not each food individually, that is problematic.
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »No I get it, you are saying no food should be labelled bad because it is really about the diet as a whole, portions, total calories etc. And you are saying it is okay to have these foods. Which I totally agree with but I still think they need a label. Its just annoying on MFP because I have posted something previously also and got a bunch of rude comments about how there is no such thing as clean food or unhealthy food or whatever. I just think realistically different food groups need different labels.
Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...Calorie dense and nutrient dense...
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WorkInProgress909 wrote: »No I get it, you are saying no food should be labelled bad because it is really about the diet as a whole, portions, total calories etc. And you are saying it is okay to have these foods. Which I totally agree with but I still think they need a label. Its just annoying on MFP because I have posted something previously also and got a bunch of rude comments about how there is no such thing as clean food or unhealthy food or whatever. I just think realistically different food groups need different labels.
Personally, I would label foods as nutrient dense or not nutrient dense.0 -
WorkInProgress909 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »WorkInProgress909 wrote: »Eating hepatitis from the jar is unhealthy.
Non of the items mentioned (barring medical conditions or allergies) are detrimental to health.
Of course too much of the items mentioned is detrimental to health, just as too much of *anything* is.
Too much of celery and Broccoli would not be detrimental for anyone. A diet of regularly eating cookies would cause a difference in your health or weight. So there is a difference between these 2 food groups, they are not the same and it should be OK to acknowledge that.
Actually, if you ate them to exclusion of all other foods, it would be very unhealthy. So the point at which a food becomes unhealthy may differ, but again it's the extraneous factor and not the food itself that is unhealthy.
Brocolli and celery is just 2 examples, no one is going to eat them exclusively. There's a lot of vegetables, grains, meat that can go in your diet and it would be hard to overeat. At some point I can no longer have anymore chicken.. But cookies you can still eat without feeling too full but the total calories you ate will be too high compared to your salad and chicken that made you feel full.
But that's where this is getting confused. No one has ever said to eat nothing but cookies, or broccoli or celery. It's about fitting it in with what else you eat, therefore the food, in a vacuum, is not unhealthy, but the way you fit it into your daily and weekly goals may be.
My point wasn't that someone could be eating only cookies or only broccoli. My point is that one is high in calories even if you eat a small amount and might make you feel hungry later vs one that is low in calories you can eat more and it will make you feel full. If I add a cookie to my food diary I will end up feeling hungry later but those calories will be already used up and I won't be able to eat something else. You can eat a big portion of fruit and it will only be like 60 calories and make you full and healthy, meanwhile your small cookie is 100^ calories. How would you teach this to a child who hasn't developed self control yet .. If a child thinks both foods are healthy? You would have to differentiate between the 2 somehow and explain one is better than the other.
Yes, as I suggested in response to your other post you seem to be confusing calorie dense and unhealthy.
How I would explain it to anyone (and children aren't the audience on MFP, but I was able to grasp this as a child so I do not think it's that difficult) is that some foods are more calorie dense than others and some are more nutrient dense than others and that to have an overall healthy diet we need to consider a few things:
(1) that it have appropriate calories for one's goals (neither too high NOR too low);
(2) that it be balanced -- in other words, that it have enough in the various micro and macronutrients for your goals.
Whether a particular food adds to the overall health of the diet depends on what one needs given the above considerations.
Broccoli will likely further one's goals (if one is the average person in the US) more often than an oatmeal cookie, but it really depends. (The oatmeal cookie could have more fiber, it will have more fat, relevant if the person is doing some juicing thing, it obviously has more calories which are not inherently bad, etc.).
More significantly, an absolutely okay goal is to have a diet that is enjoyable and satisfying and if someone finds that an oatmeal cookie furthers this goal and is not inconsistent with any others, I don't see how it's unhealthy. It's not identical to broccoli (and no one has ever said it is) and IMO it's neither healthy nor unhealthy in itself. It's neutral.
And like others I do regularly eat some food more for its taste than its micronutrient content (after getting plenty of food which I enjoy for both). I don't see anything wrong with this. It still contributes calories I need for my day (at the moment my deficit is as high as I think is appropriate at my current weight), and my diet is overall very healthy. Also, I am not hungry -- I find the claim that eating one cookie will make you hungry for the day awfully odd, if one is otherwise eating sensibly and at a reasonable calorie level.
I'm not against cookies or desserts, I did not ban these out of my life. I am ok with eating 1 or 2 or whatever I want as long as it fits in with my goal. My point is there is a difference between these foods and it should be ok to acknowledge it. You must have been a smart 5 year old to understand that whole explanation. You would have to somehow explain to a child one is more healthier than the other and you can't have too much of the cookie because it has a lot of sugar and you will be too full to eat other healthy food. Which means there is a difference between the 2 and in order to form self
Control when you get older you need to be able to differentiate between these at any age.
There's a difference between an avocado and a piece of celery as well. Should the avocado be deemed unhealthy because it's calorie dense?
No. I am pretty sure an avocado doesn't make you crave another one immediately after finishing it. I am sure everyone has experienced cravings for another cookie/dessert and has to practice self control in order to not act on it.
I am sure it depends on the person re the avocado. I usually eat only half an avocado because of calories, and most of the time I'd totally be up for finishing it.
Similarly, I eat half a cup of ice cream after dinner most nights. Sure, I could probably manage a full cup and enjoy it (I don't have any desire to gorge myself on it, or eat more than that, typically), but it doesn't take tremendous willpower to leave it at the half cup, especially now I'm in the habit of eating sensible serving sizes and understand how much I'm eating. It certainly doesn't cause me to be hungry (I just finished dinner!) or to crave more in that context.
Perhaps you should stop projecting your own issues onto everyone else?0 -
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Same here. Which is why exercise is so vital to a successful program.
The problem is the poster is probably on a lower calorie diet and has little room for treats...
Actually what we are saying, is if you eat a well balanced meal, hit your nutrient goals (macro and micros) and have room for a 255 calorie cookie, you could.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
Look at my diary and you will see a 250 calorie Klondike almost night.
Oh without a doubt. But she could have one serving of ice cream which is around 160 calories or a couple of oreos. I only get a high calorie treat because I am pretty active and male.
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So close, and yet so far.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »No I get it, you are saying no food should be labelled bad because it is really about the diet as a whole, portions, total calories etc. And you are saying it is okay to have these foods. Which I totally agree with but I still think they need a label. Its just annoying on MFP because I have posted something previously also and got a bunch of rude comments about how there is no such thing as clean food or unhealthy food or whatever. I just think realistically different food groups need different labels.
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You don't get extra credit for extra "healthy foods" if you have met your requirement...WorkInProgress909 wrote: »
The problem is the poster is probably on a lower calorie diet and has little room for treats...
Actually what we are saying, is if you eat a well balanced meal, hit your nutrient goals (macro and micros) and have room for a 255 calorie cookie, you could.WorkInProgress909 wrote: »By the way I eat oatmeal every morning (255 calories of it) based on what you are all saying I should just replace it with oatmeal cookies as long as it fits the 255 calories. And sometimes the salads with chicken for lunch that I have I should replace it with bread and butter which will have the same calories.
I love cherries as well and they require self control too, but at least you are getting more nutrients out of them than a snack of cookies. Or will you all argue that the nutrients from both are equivalent. This conversation is ridiculous. Yes it is all about your diet but your diet consists of food that are healthy and unhealthy.
Look at my diary and you will see a 250 calorie Klondike almost night.
Oh without a doubt. But she could have one serving of ice cream which is around 160 calories or a couple of oreos. I only get a high calorie treat because I am pretty active and male.
I have 2100 calorie goal on days with high cardio exercising. I still rather make room for other "healthy foods" than ice cream unless I am really craving it and haven't had it in a while.
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