Deadlifting on Smith Machine
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Fittreelol wrote: »Fittreelol wrote: »BalletAndBarbells wrote: »Shoulders need to go back and down - imagine tying your scapula to your waistband!
Then tighten every single muscle in your body, breathe in, brace your core and stand up!
Don't think about lifting the bar, think about keeping your back straight, muscles taught and standing up. Your hips go forward but don't think about that too much either or you'll end up snapping/jerking whereas you need to be slow and controlled in a deadlift.
I would suggest cutting the weight down until you have the form down to perfect. You can prop the barbell up on a couple of plates if you need to use small plates on each end.
I disagree. The best deadlifters tend to depress and protract their shoulder blades. They will not stay retracted under heavy loads.
This is an interesting point to me and it's one that I discussed with a few people over the past week to get opinions.
To my knowledge, the muscles that retract the scapula can't maintain scapular retraction with enough weight on the bar which is why scapular retraction isn't something you necessarily want.
However, for most beginners and intermediates (and some advanced lifters) you do want thoracic extension. It's possible to have thoracic extension with protracted shoulders but I don't think most beginners have good enough motor control to do that. I also think that it's possible that coaches who DO insist on scapular retraction are doing it with the intent to create thoracic extension -- I could be wrong on this though.
This (to me) is a good topic though.
I think the motor control would be there, but beginners can only remember so many cues at once so it might get lost. For most lifters thoracic extension, scapular depression, and keeping the shoulder blades neutral in regards to the frontal plane is probably completely fine. The scapulae will naturally protract when at a heavy enough weight. I think the potential issues happen when you're attempting to force retraction against 300/400/500+ lbs and the retraction can't hold.
i dont think this would be an issue when you are at a good solid working weight or even a somewhat challenging weight. i think this might be the case when you're going for a massive PR? which could be any weight depending on that person. So it shouldn't be an every day thing that happens in training.
The question I have about it would be whether or not there's a potential risk attempting to retract the scapula under a load that's heavy enough to force protraction.0 -
oh i imagine there would be. there is always risks when you put your body under a massive load. but deadlifts are so easy to bail if something doens't feel right. I can't imagine continuing the pull if my shoulders were falling apart. And It is a full body lift, and you are only as strong as your weakest link, that will determine what you should be lifting. Just because our legs could lift heavier doens't mean the rest of our body can, so you gotta be smart and know your weights
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Fittreelol wrote: »BalletAndBarbells wrote: »Fittreelol wrote: »BalletAndBarbells wrote: »Shoulders need to go back and down - imagine tying your scapula to your waistband!
Then tighten every single muscle in your body, breathe in, brace your core and stand up!
Don't think about lifting the bar, think about keeping your back straight, muscles taught and standing up. Your hips go forward but don't think about that too much either or you'll end up snapping/jerking whereas you need to be slow and controlled in a deadlift.
I would suggest cutting the weight down until you have the form down to perfect. You can prop the barbell up on a couple of plates if you need to use small plates on each end.
I disagree. The best deadlifters tend to depress and protract their shoulder blades. They will not stay retracted under heavy loads.
Sorry to hijack but I might also learn something here - what do others think about this? I've always been told I need to put my shoulderblades in my back pockets and pull tight for Deadlifts (and all lifts in fact) but is this not right? I'm not a professional! SonyaCele, what's your thoughts since you're a pro lifter?
i have no idea what he means by depress and protact and retracted. I roll my shoulders down and back and hold them tight. yes for all lifts. and i keep them back tight even under heavy loads. thats where the strength is, in a tight solid upper body. and lol, i woudlnt really call myself a pro lifter
@BalletAndBarbells If you don't understand the mechanics why are you giving advice without a preface such as "this is what I have read?" You stated the shoulders need to go back and down. This is what is known respectively as retraction and depression when referring to the shoulder blade specifically. Depression activates the lats. If you try to retract your scapulae through the entire lift the rhomboids and middle traps would be the limiting factor theoretically. Practically they just relax and then protract the scapula (move towards the front of the body). This lack of tightness can also cause thoracic flexion/rounding during the lift which is generally frowned upon (not to be confused with purposeful thoracic flexion in preparation for the lift which is generally not agreed upon by anyone as okay or harmful, but does decrease ROM.) Again this is why the best deadlifters such as Ed Coan and Kimberly Walford protract their scapula in preparation for the lift. It is completely possible to make your upper body "tight" with the scapula in any given position.
There are technically no professional powerlifters although some federations have a "pro" division which just translates to untested. I'm not sure why someone lifting automatically validates what they have to say, but in that case I'm also a competitive power lifter with a fairly decent total.
I'm not into an argument about this as you are clearly hoping for but who said that I don't understand the mechanics? No, I'm not an impressive powerlifter but I do have 2 degrees, one of which is anatomy and physiology, and I lift heavy weights (100kg range which is OK for a 60kg woman not competing in lifting) in the gym so I think my advice regarding deadlift form is as valid as anyone else's and it is not based on "what I've read".
You then threw up a question about scapula positioning which is somewhat controversial so I asked for further opinions!
As other people have then clarified, I think it would be difficult for a beginner lifter (which the OP appears to be) to manage to keep tight without retracting the scapula. I think I would find it very difficult to maintain tightness with a depressed and protracted scapula but I'm not lifting heavy enough to need to!0 -
And then destroys barbells.0 -
well that's a whole lot of big words and fancy way of saying "roll your shoulders down and back and get tight" I've honestly never heard any of those big words in the gym before, i guess i dont read enough books. Im not sure what i'd think if my coach told me to protract my throrax and retract my scapulea or whatever it is you are saying. I do much better with simple words like "get tight"
Bit of a tangent here, but have you heard of Mark Rippetoe? I really really like him in videos I've seen, so then I tried to read "Starting Strength," which is like the classic literature of powerlifting. Emphasis on Tried. It was SO technical, it was like this mashup of geometry and anatomy and physiology. It was so far over my head, in fact, that it nearly put me off lifting entirely.
So I definitely get where you're coming from.
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Yes i have heard of Mark rippetoe, never met him but i know he's well respected. Some of his methonds aren't exactly my style, but thats ok, everyone finds what works for them. If you can use his advice and improve your lifts, thats great and a lot of people do.
As far as all the technical stuff and science behind it, its all great and if it helps someone increase their numbers that's great. But lifting weights is not that complicated. You go into the gym and you pick things up and work on improving and you learn what you can from others, or maybe books, but knowing all the technical stuff isn't always necessary to get strong. There are plenty of strong good lifters that aren't very bright, maybe I'm one of the not so bright ones :P Although I've read through plenty of books way back when, and watched lots of you tube videos, and read online articles and then forgot what i just read. Where i've done the majority of my learning was hands on in the gym.1 -
well that's a whole lot of big words and fancy way of saying "roll your shoulders down and back and get tight" I've honestly never heard any of those big words in the gym before, i guess i dont read enough books. Im not sure what i'd think if my coach told me to protract my throrax and retract my scapulea or whatever it is you are saying. I do much better with simple words like "get tight"
Bit of a tangent here, but have you heard of Mark Rippetoe? I really really like him in videos I've seen, so then I tried to read "Starting Strength," which is like the classic literature of powerlifting. Emphasis on Tried. It was SO technical, it was like this mashup of geometry and anatomy and physiology. It was so far over my head, in fact, that it nearly put me off lifting entirely.
So I definitely get where you're coming from.
This! I'm working on keeping tight. Don't ask me what a scapula or thorax is! Pretty sure most athletes don't know those terms either.0 -
piperdown44 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »No way to really assess your form since the smith machine has you locked in a specific range of motion.
There are only a few lifts I'd consider using a smith machine for and deadlifts or squats are not one of them.
I do shrugs and inverted rows on it. Are shrugs ok on the Smith?
Lifts I do or would consider in a smith machine:
Seated OHP
Shrugs
Rows
Calf raises
That's about it.
If I'm traveling and a smith machine is the only thing available at the hotel (and a real gym is either too far away or expensive for just a few days) I would do bench in it.
what about towel holder and set resting machine?
Otherwise I do inverted pull ups on them (australian pull ups I think they call them)1 -
OP- as far as form- please go back to the basics with a bar and skip the Smith for these- watching this video hurt my feelings- and really looked painful.1
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piperdown44 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »No way to really assess your form since the smith machine has you locked in a specific range of motion.
There are only a few lifts I'd consider using a smith machine for and deadlifts or squats are not one of them.
I do shrugs and inverted rows on it. Are shrugs ok on the Smith?
Lifts I do or would consider in a smith machine:
Seated OHP
Shrugs
Rows
Calf raises
That's about it.
If I'm traveling and a smith machine is the only thing available at the hotel (and a real gym is either too far away or expensive for just a few days) I would do bench in it.
what about towel holder and set resting machine?
Otherwise I do inverted pull ups on them (australian pull ups I think they call them)
Well, those are a given.......
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piperdown44 wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »No way to really assess your form since the smith machine has you locked in a specific range of motion.
There are only a few lifts I'd consider using a smith machine for and deadlifts or squats are not one of them.
I do shrugs and inverted rows on it. Are shrugs ok on the Smith?
Lifts I do or would consider in a smith machine:
Seated OHP
Shrugs
Rows
Calf raises
That's about it.
If I'm traveling and a smith machine is the only thing available at the hotel (and a real gym is either too far away or expensive for just a few days) I would do bench in it.
what about towel holder and set resting machine?
Otherwise I do inverted pull ups on them (australian pull ups I think they call them)
Well, those are a given.......
forgive me for stating the obvious L
I don't do shrugs so I never even think about the smith for that- calf raises are good though- but I don't do those either #lazyforlife #ittybittycalfcommittee
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piperdown44 wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »No way to really assess your form since the smith machine has you locked in a specific range of motion.
There are only a few lifts I'd consider using a smith machine for and deadlifts or squats are not one of them.
I do shrugs and inverted rows on it. Are shrugs ok on the Smith?
Lifts I do or would consider in a smith machine:
Seated OHP
Shrugs
Rows
Calf raises
That's about it.
If I'm traveling and a smith machine is the only thing available at the hotel (and a real gym is either too far away or expensive for just a few days) I would do bench in it.
what about towel holder and set resting machine?
Otherwise I do inverted pull ups on them (australian pull ups I think they call them)
Well, those are a given.......
forgive me for stating the obvious L
I don't do shrugs so I never even think about the smith for that- calf raises are good though- but I don't do those either #lazyforlife #ittybittycalfcommittee
Is that like the #joftinylegleague?0 -
piperdown44 wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »singingflutelady wrote: »piperdown44 wrote: »No way to really assess your form since the smith machine has you locked in a specific range of motion.
There are only a few lifts I'd consider using a smith machine for and deadlifts or squats are not one of them.
I do shrugs and inverted rows on it. Are shrugs ok on the Smith?
Lifts I do or would consider in a smith machine:
Seated OHP
Shrugs
Rows
Calf raises
That's about it.
If I'm traveling and a smith machine is the only thing available at the hotel (and a real gym is either too far away or expensive for just a few days) I would do bench in it.
what about towel holder and set resting machine?
Otherwise I do inverted pull ups on them (australian pull ups I think they call them)
Well, those are a given.......
forgive me for stating the obvious L
I don't do shrugs so I never even think about the smith for that- calf raises are good though- but I don't do those either #lazyforlife #ittybittycalfcommittee
Is that like the #joftinylegleague?
#yesofcouse0 -
Shawshankcan wrote: »geekyjock76 wrote: »MichelleLei1 wrote: »richardpkennedy1 wrote: »This may be the worst idea I have seen in a while...
How about this for a bad idea...
I see some fitness models in YouTube videos doing that. Really silly and dangerous. I also see others standing on the hip adduction/abduction machine instead of being seated and using the equipment the way it was designed.
Its an old school leg press variations. Put the saftey stops in on the smith machine and it's fine
Also- thank you- this is a VERY old lift- even without the smith machine- it's excellent for hitting the glute/hammy connection.
Old schoolers used to do this with just the bar- no smith machine for those folks.0 -
BalletAndBarbells wrote: »Fittreelol wrote: »BalletAndBarbells wrote: »Shoulders need to go back and down - imagine tying your scapula to your waistband!
Then tighten every single muscle in your body, breathe in, brace your core and stand up!
Don't think about lifting the bar, think about keeping your back straight, muscles taught and standing up. Your hips go forward but don't think about that too much either or you'll end up snapping/jerking whereas you need to be slow and controlled in a deadlift.
I would suggest cutting the weight down until you have the form down to perfect. You can prop the barbell up on a couple of plates if you need to use small plates on each end.
I disagree. The best deadlifters tend to depress and protract their shoulder blades. They will not stay retracted under heavy loads.
Sorry to hijack but I might also learn something here - what do others think about this? I've always been told I need to put my shoulderblades in my back pockets and pull tight for Deadlifts (and all lifts in fact) but is this not right? I'm not a professional! SonyaCele, what's your thoughts since you're a pro lifter?
i have no idea what he means by depress and protact and retracted. I roll my shoulders down and back and hold them tight. yes for all lifts. and i keep them back tight even under heavy loads. thats where the strength is, in a tight solid upper body. and lol, i woudlnt really call myself a pro lifter
Perhaps he means roll your shoulders forward and down. Because I use a hook grip, that's what I do. If you retract your shoulders; pull them back, you shorten your arm length. Forward and down extends it. That doesn't mean loose or soft. I've had a lot of success that way and have been pulling like that for years.0 -
Over 100 posts on a thread about my *kitten* deadlifts. Lol3
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richardpkennedy1 wrote: »Over 100 posts on a thread about my *kitten* deadlifts. Lol
Kitten deadlifts would be pretty fun. You could just hold them by the scruff of the neck. They'd try to run away between sets though
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I deadlift on a smith. Im aware that free weights are superior but at my gym the smith is the only option. I still get benefits from the smith even if they are less than i would get from freeweights. I also do my hevier benching on the smith because i workout alone and have no spot. I am in the gym to workout and build muscle NOT lift weights. So lift on my friend. Most people dont deadlift at all and thats a shame.1
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I deadlift on a smith. Im aware that free weights are superior but at my gym the smith is the only option. I still get benefits from the smith even if they are less than i would get from freeweights. I also do my hevier benching on the smith because i workout alone and have no spot. I am in the gym to workout and build muscle NOT lift weights. So lift on my friend. Most people dont deadlift at all and thats a shame.
It's not a matter of free weights just being better. It's a matter of proper form. Bad form on a lift as big and technical as the deadlift is a recipe for injury.
As to the bold: what?0 -
Alan Thrall over on youtube has some good how to vids on dead lifting, and he is a funny guy as well.
Go check him out.
I would put 135 on the bar and just start putting in the time with it after watching some vids. Keep videoing yourself and check out your form as you go. Once you get the feel for how the dead lift is supposed to be performed, add some weight. Do that weight for awhile, and if it is comfortable, add some more. Once you start to round your lower back, break form, it is time to stop adding weight. Drop back to previous weight and add some reps and sets, eat a little more and then move onto the next weight.
If you want to get good at something, you have to do it more. The more repetitions you get with the BB, the better you will get with it.0
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