November 2016 Running Challenge
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Is this about your LTHR post? I got nothing. I need to actually wear my HRM more often. LOL
Sorry, I am mostly a "by feel" guy than "by HR". Not that I advocate against it, just that I am too lazy to get into the HR thing.
LOL, yeah that one. I just wondered if you had seen anything out there about how good an indicator that test is.0 -
I have gotten way off track this month. I went out Friday the 11th to do my 14 mile run and made it a mile. I broke down crying. I haven't run since. I know I need to get back into the swing. I know I want to run my marathon in January. I just need to get back out & into a routine.lporter229 wrote: »
Question for those of you that get up at 5AM or earlier to run. What time do you go to bed? Just curious. I get up at 6AM to walk my dog then I run afterwards if I am doing an AM run. I am finding that I do not have enough time to get in a good run and still make it to work at a reasonable hour. I can start getting up earlier, but I rarely can make it to bed before 11 and I have found out that sacrificing sleep for running is counter-productive.
If I get up at 4 am, I try to be in bed by 9:30. My regular wake up/not working out is 5 am I try to go to bed by 10. Any less than 6 hours and I won't be functioning at 4 am so if I get in bed around 9:30 I'm asleep by 10.2 -
I plugged my recorded max HR into the calculator before actually, using the 194 MAX HR I hit in my first HM. The spreadsheet gives me a 175 LTHR. I'm just curious because the ~5bpm difference between that one and the one I got using the test run today.MNLittleFinn wrote: »There were a bunch of surprises for me with this run. First of all, I chopped 1:
When you enter in your most recent race into the Daniel's table you get your estimated LTHR in two different locations. First is the yellow box on the top. It calculates your estimated LT Pace and LTHR range.
The second location is in the middle area under Joe Friel Training Zone Approximations.
How do these two values compare to your test? How confident are you that you performed the test correctly? I know nothing about the test so I can't comment on the procedure.
Test is basically run hard for 30 minutes and take the average HR for the last 20 min and that's your LTHR. I think I ran the test correctly, I did a short, 15 min easy jog warm up (because it was 30 and I was wearing shorts) then dropped the hammer for 30 minutes. I used the GC app which allows for looking at average HR for a section of a run.0 -
@MNLittleFinn Your question is a good one. I may not be the best qualified person to answer this, but try and bear with me here as I attempt to explain my thoughts. I have never used the Friel test for estimating LTHR because, quite frankly, I don't think that it is very accurate as it pertains to Matt Fitzgerald's training zones. The subject of LTHR is kind of a sticky one because there is really no clear way to define it. Lactate threshold is defined as the "intensity at which lactate accumulates in the blood faster than it is removed". So now we are dealing with the gray area of "intensity". As we all know from experience, intensity, as it relates to heart rate, is relative to duration. For the sake of distance running, by most accounts, LTHR is considered to be about the HR you can maintain for 1 hour. If you are running very hard for 30 minutes and taking your average HR at the later part of that run, it almost certainly seems to me that would give you a much higher HR than what is sustainable for an hour. I can run hard for 5 minutes at a 7 minute mile and quickly get my heart rate up to 160. Or I can run a marathon at an 8:30 pace and eventually get my heart rate up to 160. But how do I know that either of these is my LTHR? I don't. I have no earthly clue. And how do I even know that my heart rate will be the same at lactate threshold if I am sprinting or running a marathon? Again, I don't. In other words, what I am suggesting is that LTHR is dependent upon the activity being performed and is not an absolute value. Both the Freil method and the Fitzgerald method are shots in the dark on making an approximation. So the best I can do is to make that approximation based on what is prescribed by the person whose plan I am following if I want it to relate to my training.
Now that I am sure I have thoroughly confused you, here is the TLDR: Use the Fitzgerald method for determining LTHR if you are using the Fitzgerald training zones. The Freil method will almost certainly give you a higher number.2 -
Sleeping question. So I am one of the people that regularly get up before 5AM to run. I try to go to bed by 10PM but that rarely ever happens. So many times I will be sleep deprived. I am usually asleep by 11 tho, but many times later than that.0
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I know I don't get enough sleep. I usually go to bed around 10:30 then up at 5 to run (I run 3 x wk right now).0
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@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.0 -
about sleep. I'm to bed by about 9 each day and up at 4:25 so I have time for my runs and showering, etc... before the rest of the family gets up.0
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@MobyCarp Thanks for the advice. It is my goal to run those hills for my long runs too. Right now, I am building mileage with increasing long run distances. Maybe I can increase the distance one week and then keep the distance and run those elevations the next. I actually bookmarked a neighborhood route that cover 13 miles with ~1,000 ft elevation to do someday
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11/1: 7.4k
11/3: 6.3k
11/4: 6.1k
11/5: 18k
11/7: 10k
11/8: 3k
11:9: 2k
11/10: 9.5k
11/11: 2k
11/12: 9.2k
11/14: 3.2
11/15: 10.4k
11/17: 8.8k
Up until now: 95.9k
Left: 44.1k
Races:
11/27: Democritus Half Marathon
12/18: Tour of Drama 10K
I wish to all runs free of injuries!
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Date Miles today - Miles for November
11/1 9 miles - 9 << 5 above VT 4 below VT
11/1 5 miles - 14 << Daily Double 5 below VT
11/2 5 miles - 19 << 5 below VT
11/3 9.5 miles - 28.5 << 9.5 below VT
11/3 5 miles - 33.5 << Daily Double 5 miles below VT
11/4 5 miles - 38.5 << 1 mile above VT and 4 miles below VT
11/5 13 miles - 51.5
11/6 REST DAY
11/7 5 miles - 56.5 << 5 below VT
11/8 6.2 miles - 62.7 << 6.2 below VT
11/9 4 miles - 66.7 << 3.5 below VT
11/10 5 miles - 71.7 << 5 below VT
11/11 2 miles - 73.7 << easy shake out run
11/12 14.1 miles - 87.8 << HHM + 1 mi warmup
11/13 REST DAY
11/14 4 miles - 91.8 << easy recovery
11/15 7.3 miles - 99.1
11/16 4 miles - 103.1
11/17 8 miles - 111.1 << ~3 miles above VT & 5 miles below VT
Upcoming races:
UAH 8K - 3/6 <<< 34:33 3 in AG
Oak Barrel HM - 4/2 <<<< 1:38:00 3 in AG
Bridge Street HM - 4/10 <<< 1:36:33 3 in AG
PEO-AVN Team Day 5K - 5/4 <<< 19:10 (2.9 mi) 1 in AG 5 OA
Cotton Row Run 10K - 5/30 << 44:57 PR
Firecracker Chase 10.2 miler 6/25 << 1:20:22 1 in AG & 15 OA
Huntsville Half Marathon - 11/12 << 1:35:55 2 in AG & 25 OA
Rocket City Marathon - 12/10
So this morning I forgot to start my Garmin before our group leader said let's go. So Cole and I just stood there for about 90 seconds until my watch locked onto the satellites. Usually it takes only about 10 seconds, so not sure what was going on this morning. Anyway, that ended up meaning that we started way in the back of the pack and we just about ran pass everyone in the street except for Ryan and Karlee who were way up ahead. But they were pretty much in sight after we passed everyone else, so the Alpha in me increased my pace a little bit turning it into a mini tempo run. The first couple of miles were still just a lil slower than marathon pace (just barely) but the third mile was pretty much at my HM pace. Finally we caught up to them by mile 3 and slowed down to a more manageable 8:15 pace but then they split off to the shorter 6 mile route while Cole and I continued on for the 8 mile route. We then finished the remainder at an easy pace ~9 min miles.
Oh, on top of that, we did the Cabala Hill route (the same hill we do repeats on) and Cole decided we were going to sprint up the hill. That hill is right after mile 1 of the route. So that made mile 2 interesting. No hill repeats today, just sprinted up the hill only once.1 -
MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/
The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
Just keep in mind that this is still an estimation. Remember, how your body reacts to a certain pace will mostly be different each day depending on temperature of your environment, how much sleep you got, how stressed you are, how physically fatigued you are, if your dehydrated, if you are running in a headwind/tailwind, up/down a hill or flat, ect. And the test says, "accelerate to your lactate threshold". So this tests also depends on a good estimate of what you think your LTP is.
Also, as @lporter229 pointed out, LT is measured by how your body produces and clears lactate and you are trying to match that with an absolute pace or HR. This is probably why I never bothered with the HR thing and go mostly by feel. I figured it all is an estimate no matter what method you use.0 -
greenolivetree wrote: »According to my new smashrun thing, I run 58% of my runs in the morning. I go through phases of running before work or in the evening. But Fri/Sat I don't work and almost always run those mornings, just not super early, more like 9am. I've honestly never had a set schedule and just kinda fly by the seat of my pants. LOL
I'm the same way! I run when I feel like I can run. Lately that's been in the evening, after work. I was able to do some morning runs last month, but lately I've been struggling to wake up. So I go later now. Maybe once spring comes back I'll be able to get up early again.
On days I have free (very rare), I'll run in the late morning or early afternoon. Those runs are always great.0 -
MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
So I am quite confused by that calculator. According to that, it equates LT pace to 5K pace, which pretty much goes against any standard I have ever seen. Generally (also verified by Daniels tables), it is considered to be somewhere between 10K and 15K pace.
However, as @Stoshew71 pointed out, it's pointless to get too tied up on specifics. At the end of the day, if you do enough training with a HRM, you eventually end up in the same place of running on PE anyway. How do you feel running at that pace? Can you talk? It might not be completely comfortable, but you should be able to carry on a conversation. Use the "Pledge of Allegience" test in the 80/20 book. It may be hokey, but I think it will get you in the proper place to make the most of the intent of the plan.0 -
How is November already half over? Next week is Thanksgiving! Time goes by too fast...2
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lporter229 wrote: »MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
So I am quite confused by that calculator. According to that, it equates LT pace to 5K pace, which pretty much goes against any standard I have ever seen. Generally (also verified by Daniels tables), it is considered to be somewhere between 10K and 15K pace.
However, as @Stoshew71 pointed out, it's pointless to get too tied up on specifics. At the end of the day, if you do enough training with a HRM, you eventually end up in the same place of running on PE anyway. How do you feel running at that pace? Can you talk? It might not be completely comfortable, but you should be able to carry on a conversation. Use the "Pledge of Allegience" test in the 80/20 book. It may be hokey, but I think it will get you in the proper place to make the most of the intent of the plan.
Actually @lporter229, I believe (and @MNLittleFinn correct me if I am assuming wrong) I believe what he is using is plugging his 5K PR into a calculator like McMillian's and getting an estimation of his LTP that way. Then he is measuring what his plateaued HR is when he sustains his pace at the pace the calculator is giving him.0 -
lporter229 wrote: »MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
So I am quite confused by that calculator. According to that, it equates LT pace to 5K pace, which pretty much goes against any standard I have ever seen. Generally (also verified by Daniels tables), it is considered to be somewhere between 10K and 15K pace.
However, as @Stoshew71 pointed out, it's pointless to get too tied up on specifics. At the end of the day, if you do enough training with a HRM, you eventually end up in the same place of running on PE anyway. How do you feel running at that pace? Can you talk? It might not be completely comfortable, but you should be able to carry on a conversation. Use the "Pledge of Allegience" test in the 80/20 book. It may be hokey, but I think it will get you in the proper place to make the most of the intent of the plan.
Actually @lporter229, I believe (and @MNLittleFinn correct me if I am assuming wrong) I believe what he is using is plugging his 5K PR into a calculator like McMillian's and getting an estimation of his LTP that way. Then he is measuring what his plateaued HR is when he sustains his pace at the pace the calculator is giving him.
Yes, but I checked out the calculator and it equates that 5K pace to the upper end of Z3, which he defines in his book as lactate threshold. To verify, I plugged in my HM time and the upper Z3 pace that it gave me is close to my 5K pace and way above what I would consider to be my LT. I don't know about you, but I am not talking to anyone while I am running a 5K!0 -
Actually @lporter229, I believe (and @MNLittleFinn correct me if I am assuming wrong) I believe what he is using is plugging his 5K PR into a calculator like McMillian's and getting an estimation of his LTP that way. Then he is measuring what his plateaued HR is when he sustains his pace at the pace the calculator is giving him.
This exactly. Sorry, the kids are very unruly today, so I'm hopping on and offline. That's way better than I could have put it.0 -
lporter229 wrote: »lporter229 wrote: »MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
So I am quite confused by that calculator. According to that, it equates LT pace to 5K pace, which pretty much goes against any standard I have ever seen. Generally (also verified by Daniels tables), it is considered to be somewhere between 10K and 15K pace.
However, as @Stoshew71 pointed out, it's pointless to get too tied up on specifics. At the end of the day, if you do enough training with a HRM, you eventually end up in the same place of running on PE anyway. How do you feel running at that pace? Can you talk? It might not be completely comfortable, but you should be able to carry on a conversation. Use the "Pledge of Allegience" test in the 80/20 book. It may be hokey, but I think it will get you in the proper place to make the most of the intent of the plan.
Actually @lporter229, I believe (and @MNLittleFinn correct me if I am assuming wrong) I believe what he is using is plugging his 5K PR into a calculator like McMillian's and getting an estimation of his LTP that way. Then he is measuring what his plateaued HR is when he sustains his pace at the pace the calculator is giving him.
Yes, but I checked out the calculator and it equates that 5K pace to the upper end of Z3, which he defines in his book as lactate threshold. To verify, I plugged in my HM time and the upper Z3 pace that it gave me is close to my 5K pace and way above what I would consider to be my LT. I don't know about you, but I am not talking to anyone while I am running a 5K!
I agree. LOL
I feel bad when I run by race volunteers without saying a word to them or even acknowledging them.
But I am in the zone. I will thank them when I pick up my banana at the end of the race.
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lporter229 wrote: »lporter229 wrote: »MNLittleFinn wrote: »@lporter229 so, I "reverse engineered" the Fitzgerald test I found here: http://mattfitzgerald.org/intensity-guidelines/The next step is to determine your LTHR using run pace as the foundation. To do this, warm up with 10 minutes of easy jogging and then accelerate to your lactate threshold pave on a smooth, flat path or road. Wait for your heart rate to stop increasing and plateau. The number you see after it levels off is your LTHR.
When I punched in my 5k time from the run today, (here's where I cheated a little, by using it) it gave a Lactate Threshold Pace of 7:43
Basically, using my 5k PR from this run, and the HR recorded from the run. The Plateau in my HR came at 180 BPM. That's higher than I would have thought, but there was very little variation in my HR +/- 1-2bpm after it plateaued.
So I am quite confused by that calculator. According to that, it equates LT pace to 5K pace, which pretty much goes against any standard I have ever seen. Generally (also verified by Daniels tables), it is considered to be somewhere between 10K and 15K pace.
However, as @Stoshew71 pointed out, it's pointless to get too tied up on specifics. At the end of the day, if you do enough training with a HRM, you eventually end up in the same place of running on PE anyway. How do you feel running at that pace? Can you talk? It might not be completely comfortable, but you should be able to carry on a conversation. Use the "Pledge of Allegience" test in the 80/20 book. It may be hokey, but I think it will get you in the proper place to make the most of the intent of the plan.
Actually @lporter229, I believe (and @MNLittleFinn correct me if I am assuming wrong) I believe what he is using is plugging his 5K PR into a calculator like McMillian's and getting an estimation of his LTP that way. Then he is measuring what his plateaued HR is when he sustains his pace at the pace the calculator is giving him.
Yes, but I checked out the calculator and it equates that 5K pace to the upper end of Z3, which he defines in his book as lactate threshold. To verify, I plugged in my HM time and the upper Z3 pace that it gave me is close to my 5K pace and way above what I would consider to be my LT. I don't know about you, but I am not talking to anyone while I am running a 5K!
Sounds like you are running a 5K in about an hour. LOL Well, if the particular calculator was accurate.
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