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Should your S.O./Spouse have a say so if they feel you are too thin or too large?
Replies
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rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
I know several people who work in these professions (ER nurses, trauma surgeons, first responders, etc.) who prioritize their health as well as their job. These people choose healthier options on the way home before they "collapse into bed." And in their down time, often use physical activity to help de-stress.
You are correct, though. It usually does come down to priorities. It's whatever is more important - your health and fitness or something else (comfort, convenience, some other goal, etc.) This post makes it sound like in order to take care of oneself you have to neglect others, and vice versa. It doesn't have to be an either/or, though. You CAN do both. It might be more challenging, that's true.
Of course, there will sometimes be other circumstances beyond our control that make it nearly impossible to maintain our health and fitness the way we'd like to. But most people can make at least some extra effort IF they want to. You don't have to be a fitness superstar, in perfect shape, while saving lives in the ER, either. You can make simple choices that lead to better health and don't require tons of time and effort. And when you feel better, you function better.
I'm not trying to be judgmental. I'm kind of neutral on it. Choosing not to focus on your own self care in order to do other things isn't necessarily bad. It's just a choice people make. Live and let live. I know people who don't prioritize their health because they choose to put themselves last and seem to take on more than they can handle in order to avoid focusing on themselves. That's just the way they roll and they seem to be fine, besides maybe getting a little run down and sick more often. I'm cool with that, too. They're happy. But don't try to make it sound heroic and selfless to not care for yourself. That sounds like an excuse.
IMO, you can often take better care of others when you take care of yourself, too. In "my world" people DO find a way to do both.1 -
STLBADGIRL wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »Can we have a candid and respectful conversation about this subject? I read on here frequently that a S.O/spouse should love your regardless of your weight....but isn't a part of love being open and honest with a person?
I want to be clear....I don't think anyone should demand a person to gain or lose weight.
i think if a person has serious health issues such as diabetes or is at risk of death, then yes. And it's all in the messaging. It shouldn't be coming from you need to lose weight but rather I'm concerned about your health how can we make changes together. But if the person is not open to change then the SO providing the support needs to respect that. If they are healthy but heavy no they shouldn't.
@dra760 - Do you still provide support if your SO isn't open to change?
Support for what, though? Killing themselves through unhealthy behaviors? That sounds less like support and more like enabling.
STLBADGIRL wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »Can we have a candid and respectful conversation about this subject? I read on here frequently that a S.O/spouse should love your regardless of your weight....but isn't a part of love being open and honest with a person?
I want to be clear....I don't think anyone should demand a person to gain or lose weight.
i think if a person has serious health issues such as diabetes or is at risk of death, then yes. And it's all in the messaging. It shouldn't be coming from you need to lose weight but rather I'm concerned about your health how can we make changes together. But if the person is not open to change then the SO providing the support needs to respect that. If they are healthy but heavy no they shouldn't.
@dra760 - Do you still provide support if your SO isn't open to change?
Support for what, though? Killing themselves through unhealthy behaviors? That sounds less like support and more like enabling.STLBADGIRL wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »Can we have a candid and respectful conversation about this subject? I read on here frequently that a S.O/spouse should love your regardless of your weight....but isn't a part of love being open and honest with a person?
I want to be clear....I don't think anyone should demand a person to gain or lose weight.
i think if a person has serious health issues such as diabetes or is at risk of death, then yes. And it's all in the messaging. It shouldn't be coming from you need to lose weight but rather I'm concerned about your health how can we make changes together. But if the person is not open to change then the SO providing the support needs to respect that. If they are healthy but heavy no they shouldn't.
@dra760 - Do you still provide support if your SO isn't open to change?
Support for what, though? Killing themselves through unhealthy behaviors? That sounds less like support and more like enabling.
Yes I would still support them. My mom was about 100 pounds overweight. She had breathing problems , could barley walk (had knee replacement ) , asthma, pre diabetes , poor sleep patterns and high stress. She would eat junk constantly and used food for comfort and de stressing . There were many times that I would tell her don’t eat all the cake or stop drinking so much coffee (not the right approach). I finally told her I was concerned about her health and her risk for all these chronic conditions that run in our family. I said she should seek help from a doctor and nutritionist. She was annoyed and didn’t listen. But I decided that was the last time I’d bring it up ever again and that I would not comment on her poor eating habits. However to support her when getting together for meals we did our best to have healthy alternatives and not being dessert. You can give people advice but after a point , advice is meaningless until the person is ready to commit to a change. Until then , be creative and find ways to be supportive in a healthy way.7 -
rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.4 -
STLBADGIRL wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »Can we have a candid and respectful conversation about this subject? I read on here frequently that a S.O/spouse should love your regardless of your weight....but isn't a part of love being open and honest with a person?
I want to be clear....I don't think anyone should demand a person to gain or lose weight.
i think if a person has serious health issues such as diabetes or is at risk of death, then yes. And it's all in the messaging. It shouldn't be coming from you need to lose weight but rather I'm concerned about your health how can we make changes together. But if the person is not open to change then the SO providing the support needs to respect that. If they are healthy but heavy no they shouldn't.
@dra760 - Do you still provide support if your SO isn't open to change?
Support for what, though? Killing themselves through unhealthy behaviors? That sounds less like support and more like enabling.
@dra760 I agree - but it is all about perspective. The other person could believe that she is supporting her SO by not pointing out the obvious if they are not ready to change.0 -
tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.0 -
STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.6 -
tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
I don't believe we live in a world that is non judgmental - I don't think I stated that. So for you to quote or cite is unnecessary. You confirmed that you were judging and I stated my opinion based off of it. And my statement still stands about you being judged, and for whatever reason, you change your life for the better only to jump on the same side of the people that were judging you. It's (still) not cool in my opinion. As stated before, I would have thought your angle would have been different or in your terms "the best way to deliver those messages". But hey, you have your opinion, just like I have mine.5 -
tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.5 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.
Very well put!0 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.
Spot the judgement...
Found it!
There is nothing wrong with the act of judgement, just keep it in line and keep the hypocrisy at a minimum.7 -
[/quote]
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.[/quote]
Spot the judgement...
Found it!
There is nothing wrong with the act of judgement, just keep it in line and keep the hypocrisy at a minimum. [/quote]
@CSARdiver - Very wise words!!!!0 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.
Spot the judgement...
Found it!
There is nothing wrong with the act of judgement, just keep it in line and keep the hypocrisy at a minimum.
Too easy
Humans are inconsistent. We don't apply the same standards to ourselves as we often do to others. We see this personally, we see this socially, we see this politically.
For what it's worth, I thought I was being pretty clear that the judgment I was passing was on myself. Yes, I did say we are ALL lazy. Not sure that's a judgment since I labeled all of humanity with that observation.
But I did call MYSELF out for my particular form of lazy. I simply asked people to be honest with themselves about their form of lazy.
As someone said, and it could be in this topic or elsewhere, when asked about how they lost weight, and I paraphrase, they said they simply watched what they ate and made sure they were eating fewer calories than they burned.
After being questioned in a manner where the person didn't believe such a thing was possible, they finally said they were on the bacon fat and doughnut diet (or some equally ridiculous thing.)
The bottom line is people are looking for EASY solutions.
Why? Because we are lazy.
Or they are not looking for solutions at all. Which I contend is a form of lazy.
Not saying I'm different or superior. I look for the easy button every chance I get.
My lazy is different, not better, not worse, than that of any other person.
That is what I was saying.
Heck, I'm lazy about my logging. I round certain things up to leave margin so I don't have to log other things. Who cares if I have some extra raw spinach if I'm over logging my bacon and cheese?
Lazy!
Not better, not worse, just making it work for me.
3 -
tbright1965 wrote: »nickssweetheart wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.
Spot the judgement...
Found it!
There is nothing wrong with the act of judgement, just keep it in line and keep the hypocrisy at a minimum.
Too easy
Humans are inconsistent. We don't apply the same standards to ourselves as we often do to others. We see this personally, we see this socially, we see this politically.
For what it's worth, I thought I was being pretty clear that the judgment I was passing was on myself. Yes, I did say we are ALL lazy. Not sure that's a judgment since I labeled all of humanity with that observation.
But I did call MYSELF out for my particular form of lazy. I simply asked people to be honest with themselves about their form of lazy.
As someone said, and it could be in this topic or elsewhere, when asked about how they lost weight, and I paraphrase, they said they simply watched what they ate and made sure they were eating fewer calories than they burned.
After being questioned in a manner where the person didn't believe such a thing was possible, they finally said they were on the bacon fat and doughnut diet (or some equally ridiculous thing.)
The bottom line is people are looking for EASY solutions.
Why? Because we are lazy.
Or they are not looking for solutions at all. Which I contend is a form of lazy.
Not saying I'm different or superior. I look for the easy button every chance I get.
My lazy is different, not better, not worse, than that of any other person.
That is what I was saying.
Heck, I'm lazy about my logging. I round certain things up to leave margin so I don't have to log other things. Who cares if I have some extra raw spinach if I'm over logging my bacon and cheese?
Lazy!
Not better, not worse, just making it work for me.
I am in agreement. I am also a lazy logger and often enter 1.2 to compensate for the degree of error. I consider this as part of my personal time management. I focus on what matters and ignore the rest.
It isn't possible to be offended unless what's being stated is true. This is where we get to the heart and root cause of the matter - reality conflicting with fantasy.
Lazy can be a phenomenal stimulus. The bulk of inventions created over the past century were born out of laziness. The massive rise of restaurants and drive through windows - all born of laziness. We are reaching a point where we will soon need to deliberately be less efficient or suffer the consequences, most notably obesity.2 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
Of course that's the bottom line. We ALL know that. I don't think you are shedding light on anything new here. My point is - don't label one class of people (fat) as lazy, because as you noted above all people can be lazy or some form of lazy.tbright1965 wrote: »STLBADGIRL wrote: »
You are correct. So in essence all people at varying fitness levels can be lazy in some form, whether that s physically, emotionally, or mentally.
The bottom line is excuses don't make results. Figure out your weak areas and work on them. Be they physical, emotional or mental.
Lazy doesn't win, no matter what form it takes.
If you don't know, do the work to learn.
If you don't move, do the work to move.
If you don't feel good, do the work it takes to feel good.
But sitting and making excuses and denying ones particular form of lazy will not produce results.
I own the fact that my form of lazy was apathy about what and how much I ate. The only thing I've changed in the past 90 days has been how I eat. I'm down 36 pounds. Still doing the same level of exercise as I did before.
It might be different for someone else. But it's some form of lazy. My lazy was lazy about what I'm eating.
Now, what people normally do is see a fat person and judge them, by stating that they are lazy, and typically lazy is not the first thought that pop into their mind when they see an average or smaller build. That was my original point.
As for everything else you typed, I agree on - no argument there.
My comment was more about the notion that people who are overweight are NOT lazy. They are, but not necessarily in the ways people think.
Now before people go GASP! He said what? It's already been established that people can be lazy even if they look perfectly healthy. So I'm not saying lazy as if I'm on some pedestal and if only "those people" would.... We all have the potential to be lazy. It may impact some more than others, or in different ways. Just because someone looks healthy doesn't mean they are. Heck, I was obese and people didn't even realize I was as heavy as I was. Even now, when I tell someone I weighed 229 this week, they looked at me and said really? Yet that is still OBESE according to the BMI calculations at 31.9. I have to get below 180 to get to a normal BMI.
And, there may be a very small number, on the order of 1 in 100 that has some real medical issue. But even with that, don't try selling us (or yourself) on it. Get yourself to the doctor and confirm your self-diagnosis. Do the work required to address your issue.
But for the other 99/100, the first step is to own that you've skipped some steps, taken some shortcuts or just haven't paid attention to what you are doing.
Again, I can hear the gasps.
No judgement, just own your actions and/or inaction and go from there. As I said before, you don't accomplish much of anything by making excuses. I would also add, you don't accomplish anything good by denying the reality. That's why I got up to 265. I was lying to myself and suggesting I was "in shape" and just a "big guy" because I could out work my 25 year old son at more than 2x his age.
Doesn't mean you have to keep being that person. I'm a firm believer in you don't have to be who you were yesterday. Anyone can be a better version of themselves tomorrow than they were yesterday. So if you've been lax in controlling what and how much you eat and what and how much you move, today and tomorrow can be different, and better.
But I think it all starts with being honest with oneself. Ultimately, the one you have to convince is yourself.
There are many reasons to be fat. One is simply having different priorities. I know many people who work constantly and are overweight because health is a low priority in their lives. Are they "lazy" because they choose saving lives in the ER, just to give one example, and grabbing fast food on the way home to collapse into bed, wake up after five hours sleep, and do it again, over planning meals and going to the gym? I suppose in your world they would find a way to do both?
You are in fact judging, whether you admit it or not, and it's very offputting and unkind.
You are right, I am judging.
The very same judgment I subjected myself to.
It is not mutually exclusive to care for oneself and to care for others.
In fact, the better I care for myself, the higher the probability is that I'll be around to care for my wife and kids.
I don't deny, nor am I ashamed of the judgment to which I subject myself.
Others are free to subject themselves to it, or ignore it. Makes no difference to me. Being judgment does not negate the truth presented in my statement.
@tbright1965 This is great and all. But since you were judged you would think that your angle would be different. It comes across that you have gotten a handle on your health and now you are jumping on the bandwagon of all the judgmental people that used to talk about you and doing it to others! Not cool IMO! Almost the attitude of 'you deserved that treatment because you were fat and/or unhealthy'.
People judge. To say that it's wrong is being judgmental yourself. I.E. you can't say it's wrong for someone to judge without you yourself making a judgment.
So to expect that people not make judgments is unrealistic. Just as I noted when I cited Dr Willard Harley's work earlier in the thread.
People are going to judge. Others are going to judge and say they shouldn't judge.
Since one cannot logically, and without contradiction make the statement that people shouldn't judge, then perhaps the most realistic course of action is to accept that people will judge, and not judge them as if your form of judgment is somehow superior to theirs, and get on with life.
Everyone's spouse or S.O. made some sort of judgment when they got into a relationship with you. You made a judgement when you entered the relationship with them.
I don't expect the world to be without judgment. Exactly the opposite, I expect it to pass many judgments on me, daily.
I wouldn't call it saying people deserve it. I'm simply saying it's a fact of life. People judge. To say they shouldn't is in fact a violation of the idea that people shouldn't judge.
Now we can talk about the best way to deliver those messages. But to expect a judgment free world is not a reasonable expectation.
Fine, I'm okay with making a judgment that I don't and can't know what someone else may be dealing with, so for MYSELF, I choose not to judge others who have made different choices than me.
I'm not perfect at it. I find many people's choices incomprehensible...and it can be things from why they smoke to who they voted for or where they live. But I don't know what has gone on in their lives. I don't know why the gentleman sleeping under the overpass is there. I don't know what the woman who hasn't worked for a year may be coping with. I don't know what struggle or perspective or mindset someone from a different political affiliation may be coming from. I don't know the inner workings of a marriage that may lead one party to cheat. And I don't know what the 400 lb individual may be dealing with that doesn't readily show on the outside.
I judge MYSELF as unequipped to judge others. I respect everyone who makes a sincere effort to understand instead of condemn, and I feel sorry for people who think they know everything, or prejudge others based on the fact that that person's struggle is different from their own. Because we ALL have things we struggle with. We ALL have our vices, weaknesses, and difficulties. Overweight people are unfortunate in some ways because our struggle shows on the outside. But I'd trade my weaknesses and problems for many others I could name.
Spot the judgement...
Found it!
There is nothing wrong with the act of judgement, just keep it in line and keep the hypocrisy at a minimum.
I acknowledged I wasn't perfect at it. But it's what I strive to live by every day. If that makes me a hypocrite so be it.0 -
I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life1
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Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
Did you happen to see my links to what Dr Harley says about this?
If one gets a complaint from their spouse, for anything, it's annoying for sure. Just like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. But it is key information. Something we are doing is causing a withdrawal from our love bank account with our spouse.
We have the choice to address it, and stop the withdrawals, or keep doing it and further eroding the love our spouse has for us.
Love isn't a feeling, it's an action. When we take actions that irritate annoy or otherwise bother our spouse, or fail to take actions that demonstrate we love them, we do it at the peril of our relationships.
As much as we would love for it to be easy, unconditional and without judgment, romantic love is none of those things. There were conditions that allowed you to pursue a romantic relationship with your spouse. There are conditions that will make you not want to be in a romantic relationship with your spouse. And the same is true in the other direction.
If one continues to overdraft their love bank account, the other spouse may simply close the account and the romantic relationship is over.
So sure, you can just be "happy and comfortable" and ignore the complaints of your spouse. But one does that at the risk of ruining the romantic relationship.
Finally, if one is against pushing someone to change, then isn't it just as bad to push someone to change their expectations? After all, telling someone to lower their standards or expectations is as much a push to change as is asking someone to lose weight, exercise more, etc.
So why do the calls against pushing for change not apply to those pushing people to change what they like in a spouse?
I call double standard.4 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.6 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
Did you happen to see my links to what Dr Harley says about this?
If one gets a complaint from their spouse, for anything, it's annoying for sure. Just like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. But it is key information. Something we are doing is causing a withdrawal from our love bank account with our spouse.
We have the choice to address it, and stop the withdrawals, or keep doing it and further eroding the love our spouse has for us.
Love isn't a feeling, it's an action. When we take actions that irritate annoy or otherwise bother our spouse, or fail to take actions that demonstrate we love them, we do it at the peril of our relationships.
As much as we would love for it to be easy, unconditional and without judgment, romantic love is none of those things. There were conditions that allowed you to pursue a romantic relationship with your spouse. There are conditions that will make you not want to be in a romantic relationship with your spouse. And the same is true in the other direction.
If one continues to overdraft their love bank account, the other spouse may simply close the account and the romantic relationship is over.
So sure, you can just be "happy and comfortable" and ignore the complaints of your spouse. But one does that at the risk of ruining the romantic relationship.
Finally, if one is against pushing someone to change, then isn't it just as bad to push someone to change their expectations? After all, telling someone to lower their standards or expectations is as much a push to change as is asking someone to lose weight, exercise more, etc.
So why do the calls against pushing for change not apply to those pushing people to change what they like in a spouse?
I call double standard.
A lot of very good points here. A lot. But we are individuals first, and I believe there is a fight or an imbalance on what one may like personally themselves vs pleasing their partner or spouse. Also, we are human, our wants and needs constantly change. What I liked and desired 10 years ago, I no longer desire (Thank Goodness)...so shall I expect my spouse to change because I have? I believe that there should be balance and a level of respect on both parts. I don't want to live my life on eggshells because my spouse may fall out of love with me because I'm not following their guideline of what "they" think "I" should be - some common ground should come into play here. Yes there are conditions when you find a spouse or a partner....but when you marry and fall in love with a person (not the idea of a person) then one is a little forgiving on things because of their love for a person. Remember the whole, the love is patient, the love is kind, etc. etc. etc.
Perception may play a lot into this as well. One may think that it is their duty as a spouse or a partner to please the other person, even above themselves. Others may think differently.
I personally want to hear the complaints of my s.o. I will think on them and if they are in line with my wants and needs or I don't have a big problem with the issue - I can agree to make adjustments. But if it goes what I truly believe or it is superficial - I may tell you to kick rocks.1 -
STLBADGIRL wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
Did you happen to see my links to what Dr Harley says about this?
If one gets a complaint from their spouse, for anything, it's annoying for sure. Just like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. But it is key information. Something we are doing is causing a withdrawal from our love bank account with our spouse.
We have the choice to address it, and stop the withdrawals, or keep doing it and further eroding the love our spouse has for us.
Love isn't a feeling, it's an action. When we take actions that irritate annoy or otherwise bother our spouse, or fail to take actions that demonstrate we love them, we do it at the peril of our relationships.
As much as we would love for it to be easy, unconditional and without judgment, romantic love is none of those things. There were conditions that allowed you to pursue a romantic relationship with your spouse. There are conditions that will make you not want to be in a romantic relationship with your spouse. And the same is true in the other direction.
If one continues to overdraft their love bank account, the other spouse may simply close the account and the romantic relationship is over.
So sure, you can just be "happy and comfortable" and ignore the complaints of your spouse. But one does that at the risk of ruining the romantic relationship.
Finally, if one is against pushing someone to change, then isn't it just as bad to push someone to change their expectations? After all, telling someone to lower their standards or expectations is as much a push to change as is asking someone to lose weight, exercise more, etc.
So why do the calls against pushing for change not apply to those pushing people to change what they like in a spouse?
I call double standard.
A lot of very good points here. A lot. But we are individuals first, and I believe there is a fight or an imbalance on what one may like personally themselves vs pleasing their partner or spouse. Also, we are human, our wants and needs constantly change. What I liked and desired 10 years ago, I no longer desire (Thank Goodness)...so shall I expect my spouse to change because I have? I believe that there should be balance and a level of respect on both parts. I don't want to live my life on eggshells because my spouse may fall out of love with me because I'm not following their guideline of what "they" think "I" should be - some common ground should come into play here. Yes there are conditions when you find a spouse or a partner....but when you marry and fall in love with a person (not the idea of a person) then one is a little forgiving on things because of their love for a person. Remember the whole, the love is patient, the love is kind, etc. etc. etc.
Perception may play a lot into this as well. One may think that it is their duty as a spouse or a partner to please the other person, even above themselves. Others may think differently.
I personally want to hear the complaints of my s.o. I will think on them and if they are in line with my wants and needs or I don't have a big problem with the issue - I can agree to make adjustments. But if it goes what I truly believe or it is superficial - I may tell you to kick rocks.
That is why Dr Harley recommended the policy of joint agreement.
Negotiations for what is mutually agreeable.0 -
MY two cents on this subject is this is an important subject as important as financial issues. And as most know at some point in most relationships be it with a spouse or SO financial issues are going to go off like a firecracker. I think this is totally true for weight issues. To me personally I feel it is an item that should be discussed long before there is a real problem. So called relationship rules. Been married a long time, and we put some in place and weight was one along with money matters, and child raising. Because lets face it, in the heat of the moment most of us are not going to be all cozy and warm and rational if a comment is made. Like gee that outfit sure looks tighter than last time you wore it. I have had a weight problem since I was about 10 years old. And can honestly say my spouse has never been my issue for saying anything about my weight, Never. However my immediate family has more than made up for it over the years.
And I also agree every one judges, we all do, and sometimes we become the opposite of what we want to be. Meaning even as we are fighting the good fight against ourselves. Like Maureen keep eating the right stuff you do not want to eat anything hostess makes no, no no. Then I see someone drop a wrapper in a parking lot. And think littering the parking lot, and is only going to get fatter. I bet others do that. I joke and say angel on one shoulder devilette on other shoulder. I will be strong.
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Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..2 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
So by this logic, the spouse being bullied MUST love the bully just as they are, right? After all, if we have that standard, it must be consistent. One cannot be so shallow as to expect them to change and not be who they are based on what WE want, need or expect them to be, right?
Only shallow people expect their spouse to live up to their expectations, according to you.
After all, who are you to pick and choose how someone else should look, think, work, believe, etc. You must love them regardless any of these factors. That's what you are saying.
Or are you saying we make judgments, and there are things that destroy romantic love? That some things are deal breakers and others not so much?
Why would weight be off limits? If a woman was normal stature and weight when we married and then gained weight to be double the normal, healthy body weight, don't I have the right to indicate that I don't find this attractive?
Why would I give up that right simply because I'm married?
People don't give up the right to say others things turn them off, or that they find certain attitudes, behaviors, mannerisms, fashion, whatever off-putting. So why is weight off limits?
Love is NOT unconditional. No matter how much people expect it to be, it isn't.
3 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
So by this logic, the spouse being bullied MUST love the bully just as they are, right? After all, if we have that standard, it must be consistent. One cannot be so shallow as to expect them to change and not be who they are based on what WE want, need or expect them to be, right?
Only shallow people expect their spouse to live up to their expectations, according to you.
After all, who are you to pick and choose how someone else should look, think, work, believe, etc. You must love them regardless any of these factors. That's what you are saying.
Or are you saying we make judgments, and there are things that destroy romantic love? That some things are deal breakers and others not so much?
Why would weight be off limits? If a woman was normal stature and weight when we married and then gained weight to be double the normal, healthy body weight, don't I have the right to indicate that I don't find this attractive?
Why would I give up that right simply because I'm married?
People don't give up the right to say others things turn them off, or that they find certain attitudes, behaviors, mannerisms, fashion, whatever off-putting. So why is weight off limits?
Love is NOT unconditional. No matter how much people expect it to be, it isn't.
I guess there is a certain way to go about that kind of conversation. Obviously if your partner was morbidly obese and was at risk of severe health implications such as heart attacks etc then of course you would encourage them to adopt a healthier lifestyle. Your love for them should not falter because a relationship is about more than just how someone looks. If however you tell your partner to lose weight because YOU don’t find it attractive, then that’s where my point comes in about what right do you have to dictate how that person should look, and what the “right weight” is. If they are healthy and happy then yes a partner would need to get over their shallow self and accept their partner for who they are3 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
So by this logic, the spouse being bullied MUST love the bully just as they are, right? After all, if we have that standard, it must be consistent. One cannot be so shallow as to expect them to change and not be who they are based on what WE want, need or expect them to be, right?
Only shallow people expect their spouse to live up to their expectations, according to you.
After all, who are you to pick and choose how someone else should look, think, work, believe, etc. You must love them regardless any of these factors. That's what you are saying.
Or are you saying we make judgments, and there are things that destroy romantic love? That some things are deal breakers and others not so much?
Why would weight be off limits? If a woman was normal stature and weight when we married and then gained weight to be double the normal, healthy body weight, don't I have the right to indicate that I don't find this attractive?
Why would I give up that right simply because I'm married?
People don't give up the right to say others things turn them off, or that they find certain attitudes, behaviors, mannerisms, fashion, whatever off-putting. So why is weight off limits?
Love is NOT unconditional. No matter how much people expect it to be, it isn't.
I guess there is a certain way to go about that kind of conversation. Obviously if your partner was morbidly obese and was at risk of severe health implications such as heart attacks etc then of course you would encourage them to adopt a healthier lifestyle. Your love for them should not falter because a relationship is about more than just how someone looks. If however you tell your partner to lose weight because YOU don’t find it attractive, then that’s where my point comes in about what right do you have to dictate how that person should look, and what the “right weight” is. If they are healthy and happy then yes a partner would need to get over their shallow self and accept their partner for who they are
You haven't really answered the question.
Why is it ok for a spouse to tell the other than it's not ok for them to be, as you judged, "shallow" but it's not ok to judge that they are unattractive?
How do you justify the double standard?
English is lacking when it comes to describing love. Languages such as Greek have different words for differing kinds of love. Eros, Storge, Philea and Agape come to mind from my Bible studies.
English, we just say love and then put modifiers on it such as Brotherly, or Romantic/Erotic and so on.
Finally, I'm not saying the spouse who finds the other unattractive is forcing them to do anything. Like the overdraft notice example, they are giving information. Personally, I'd rather have an ugly truth, knowing when I do something that makes it harder for my spouse to love me, than a polite lie, where she just says nothing, but harbors resentment inside.
Which is more loving, being honest and sharing hard truths, or just sucking it up and telling the polite lie?
I contend the most loving thing to do is to be honest. Now honest doesn't have to be cruel. However, one should be honest. If the 300# version of your spouse isn't as attractive as the 150# version you dated and married, love them enough to be honest with them that you don't find this attractive.
Can't force them. But you can love them enough to be honest.
The real question is will they love you enough to let you be honest with them?4 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
What you look like is an output of behavior and is a component of who you are. To ignore this is foolish and unrealistic - again unless you reside in previously stated bubble or Mars.
You have no right to change someone else. You also have no right to expect someone to accept or agree with your change.
No one should be "bullied", but that's a large stretch in the definition. If suggesting to lose weight and supporting a healthy lifestyle is bullying, then gaining weight must also be bullying. "Hey, I'm going to eat in surplus and put on 100 lbs over the next few years and I expect you to support me regardless of my behavior."
Setting expectations is not bullying.
The origin of the majority of conflicts in a relationship stem from unmet expectations, which is why these need to be communicated effectively, mutually, and consistently.2 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
So by this logic, the spouse being bullied MUST love the bully just as they are, right? After all, if we have that standard, it must be consistent. One cannot be so shallow as to expect them to change and not be who they are based on what WE want, need or expect them to be, right?
Only shallow people expect their spouse to live up to their expectations, according to you.
After all, who are you to pick and choose how someone else should look, think, work, believe, etc. You must love them regardless any of these factors. That's what you are saying.
Or are you saying we make judgments, and there are things that destroy romantic love? That some things are deal breakers and others not so much?
Why would weight be off limits? If a woman was normal stature and weight when we married and then gained weight to be double the normal, healthy body weight, don't I have the right to indicate that I don't find this attractive?
Why would I give up that right simply because I'm married?
People don't give up the right to say others things turn them off, or that they find certain attitudes, behaviors, mannerisms, fashion, whatever off-putting. So why is weight off limits?
Love is NOT unconditional. No matter how much people expect it to be, it isn't.
I guess there is a certain way to go about that kind of conversation. Obviously if your partner was morbidly obese and was at risk of severe health implications such as heart attacks etc then of course you would encourage them to adopt a healthier lifestyle. Your love for them should not falter because a relationship is about more than just how someone looks. If however you tell your partner to lose weight because YOU don’t find it attractive, then that’s where my point comes in about what right do you have to dictate how that person should look, and what the “right weight” is. If they are healthy and happy then yes a partner would need to get over their shallow self and accept their partner for who they are
You haven't really answered the question.
Why is it ok for a spouse to tell the other than it's not ok for them to be, as you judged, "shallow" but it's not ok to judge that they are unattractive?
How do you justify the double standard?
English is lacking when it comes to describing love. Languages such as Greek have different words for differing kinds of love. Eros, Storge, Philea and Agape come to mind from my Bible studies.
English, we just say love and then put modifiers on it such as Brotherly, or Romantic/Erotic and so on.
Finally, I'm not saying the spouse who finds the other unattractive is forcing them to do anything. Like the overdraft notice example, they are giving information. Personally, I'd rather have an ugly truth, knowing when I do something that makes it harder for my spouse to love me, than a polite lie, where she just says nothing, but harbors resentment inside.
Which is more loving, being honest and sharing hard truths, or just sucking it up and telling the polite lie?
I contend the most loving thing to do is to be honest. Now honest doesn't have to be cruel. However, one should be honest. If the 300# version of your spouse isn't as attractive as the 150# version you dated and married, love them enough to be honest with them that you don't find this attractive.
Can't force them. But you can love them enough to be honest.
The real question is will they love you enough to let you be honest with them?Mandylou19912014 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
What you look like is an output of behavior and is a component of who you are. To ignore this is foolish and unrealistic - again unless you reside in previously stated bubble or Mars.
You have no right to change someone else. You also have no right to expect someone to accept or agree with your change.
No one should be "bullied", but that's a large stretch in the definition. If suggesting to lose weight and supporting a healthy lifestyle is bullying, then gaining weight must also be bullying. "Hey, I'm going to eat in surplus and put on 100 lbs over the next few years and I expect you to support me regardless of my behavior."
Setting expectations is not bullying.
The origin of the majority of conflicts in a relationship stem from unmet expectations, which is why these need to be communicated effectively, mutually, and consistently.tbright1965 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
So by this logic, the spouse being bullied MUST love the bully just as they are, right? After all, if we have that standard, it must be consistent. One cannot be so shallow as to expect them to change and not be who they are based on what WE want, need or expect them to be, right?
Only shallow people expect their spouse to live up to their expectations, according to you.
After all, who are you to pick and choose how someone else should look, think, work, believe, etc. You must love them regardless any of these factors. That's what you are saying.
Or are you saying we make judgments, and there are things that destroy romantic love? That some things are deal breakers and others not so much?
Why would weight be off limits? If a woman was normal stature and weight when we married and then gained weight to be double the normal, healthy body weight, don't I have the right to indicate that I don't find this attractive?
Why would I give up that right simply because I'm married?
People don't give up the right to say others things turn them off, or that they find certain attitudes, behaviors, mannerisms, fashion, whatever off-putting. So why is weight off limits?
Love is NOT unconditional. No matter how much people expect it to be, it isn't.
Love is unconditional. The problem is that our western understanding of love differs from classical and eastern conceptions.
Which means that it is necessary to define terms.
If Love means to want the best for someone, then it requires nuance to observe an obese or unattractive spouse and truly want their best.
Is it best to be so unattractively obese that she(I hate "they" so I'll make this personal) is unable to provide basic self care or get around effectively?
Is it best to demand that she attain a level of physical ability that is out of her reach?
It is important to set aside or at least account for our selfish desires before attempting to discern what is best. And it is necessary to distinguish between what is good, what is easy, and what is best. Further, it is possible that there is a best for "us" that is only "good" for one of us. That is the nature of compromise and consideration. Sometimes it is necessary to settle for a "good" for one or both that is "best" for us, taking into account totality of life, work circumstance, life stage, children, etc. And that may be different 10 years ago or 15 years from now. And it may be hard to speak of best because it may be superficially hurtful. So tact must be used1 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
We don't have the right to change anyone, but we all have the right to decide what circumstances are okay for us, including the circumstances in which we'll share a life with someone else. If someone decides to change radically, their partner may no longer wish to be with them.
This isn't about having a "correct" way to look, it's about our freedom to direct our feelings of romantic love, our emotional energy, and who we share our lives with.4 -
Mandylou19912014 wrote: »Mandylou19912014 wrote: »I think that ultimately it’s down to you to look how you want. If your happy and comfortable as you are then your other half should respect it. If you are becoming unhappy and unhealthy then I think it’s nice to have motivation and support from your other half to help you reach your end goal. I see to many people complain that they “aren’t attracted” to their partner anymore etc and I just think those people need to learn to accept that this is the person they are with, and shouldn’t push someone to change if it’s not what that person wants as it’s their body and their life
This is a wonderful philosophy for those who live in bubbles or perhaps being living a life of solitude on Mars. The rest of us live in a world where our actions impact those who live around us.
Eating irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. Spending irresponsibly has tremendous negative impact. When we enter into a relationship it is no longer just about you, but the couple, so no....it is no longer just that person's body and life. It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect your partner to simply accept any behavior.
Love the sarcasm but I will have to disagree with you on this one. What right do we have to change someone else into being someone that only pleases ourselves? What makes your ideology of how someone should look the correct way? Why can’t someone gain a bit of weight without having comments and being made to feel like crap by their other half? When we enter a relationship we learn to love that person based on who they are and not what they look like. If you are materialistic then yes you will bully your other half into losing weight ..
I disagree. I think we can love a combination of things about our mates, including physical attributes. For instance, I love my spouse's tendency toward physical fitness (not perfection, but the appearance of general good health), because not only does it look attractive to me, it is an outward reflection of our shared interests and activities.
Sure, people (for a variety of reasons) can gain "a bit of weight" at certain times in their lives, especially in times of stress, but there's a difference between 25 pounds and 100+ pounds. And there's a difference between making the effort to get back in shape and just letting yourself go. That's as much a personality thing as a physical one, IMO.
When you're in a relationship, it's not just all about you. It's not just "your body and your life." It's a partnership. If you want to do your own thing, that's cool too. But maybe you should do on your own. Because part of a successful partnership is pleasing the other person - and that goes BOTH ways. The right partner won't expect perfection or stress you out or try to change you into someone out of character, but they should appreciate and reciprocate the efforts you make to maintain your relationship.
No one should be "made to feel like crap" or shamed by their partner. That's abusive. But no one should be made to accept extreme changes in their partner's appearance, personality and behavior, either. That's not what they signed up for. (I'm not talking about medical problems or issues beyond one's control here. I'm talking about willful, conscious choices.) If my husband gains a hundred pounds there had better be a good medical reason beyond his control for it. The same standard holds for me. We're getting older and approaching 20 years together happily. Clearly, we aren't going to stay young and hot forever. But we both agree it would be optimal to be the best versions of ourselves at every age. It's what we want for ourselves AND for each other. And that's compatibility.
Not every couple values health and fitness the same. If you both agree on your priorities, then more power to you to just do whatever, be whatever. But if you have different priorities, you need to either compromise to stay together or maybe reconsider whether you are a good match. Because it's not cool for spouses to be going off in different directions, unless that's something you've agreed upon together.3 -
@stanmann571 ,
If love is unconditional, that means there is nothing special about your spouse that you love. If love is unconditional, anyone would do.
If love is unconditional, there is nothing your spouse could do that would cause you to no longer have romantic love for them. They could cheat on you, abuse you or even attempt to kill you, but because you define love as being unconditional, you must still love them.
It is facile to falsify the unconditional nature of romantic love. There are things people do all the time that destroy romantic love.
It is very much condition, even at the beginning when it is the easiest. One doesn’t have romantic love for everyone they meet. There were conditions necessary to initiate a romantic relationship. And there are conditions necessary to maintain it.7 -
tbright1965 wrote: »@stanmann571 ,
If love is unconditional, that means there is nothing special about your spouse that you love. If love is unconditional, anyone would do.
If love is unconditional, there is nothing your spouse could do that would cause you to no longer have romantic love for them. They could cheat on you, abuse you or even attempt to kill you, but because you define love as being unconditional, you must still love them.
It is facile to falsify the unconditional nature of romantic love. There are things people do all the time that destroy romantic love.
It is very much condition, even at the beginning when it is the easiest. One doesn’t have romantic love for everyone they meet. There were conditions necessary to initiate a romantic relationship. And there are conditions necessary to maintain it.
What is special is that you each mutually chose. That's more significant than any superficial externality.
And yes, there are behaviors that can break a relationship. But that doesn't change the nature of love. And certainly there are different manifestations of love. And again. Doing what is best for the one you love may include withdrawing yourself from their sphere of influence. That separation can be a manifestation of love. It may not be necessarily.
Finally, if the only basis of marriage is romantic(eros) love, then it will inevitably fail. Marriage must be based on the intersection of Eros, Philea and Agape at minimum.4
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