Of refeeds and diet breaks
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This is coming from someone who is completely clueless when it comes to fitness
I've seen the acronyms TDEE and NEAT thrown around all the time, but really had no idea what they meant or how you could even calculate them, and the spreadsheets that some of you have been keeping I can't even wrap my mind around how you got those numbers. I googled the terms TDEE and NEAT- and found that apparently, there's a huge controversy in the MFP forums on TDEE method versus NEAT method.....
1) So the TDEE is what I should be subtracting the 500 calories for 1 lb weight loss or 1000 calories for 2 lb weight loss, correct? Or, would it be NEAT? I came across a thread here
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1183428/tdee-vs-neat
that was supposed to define the two terms and it was very specific on using the correct terms, but I'm still confused - sorry!
2) I looked around for some formulas to calculate BMR (I at least get this term), and came across this, described as the Katch-McArdle equation:
BMR = 370 + (21.6 x LBM) (where LBM is the lean body mass in kg)
I have no idea what my LBM is, but considering I'm morbidly obese, I figured 50% would be a safe place to start. At my current weight of 279.3 (down from 375 lbs), my LBM is around 140 lbs or 63.3 kg, putting my BMR around 1737, if this is the right method to use.
3) There seems to be a huge argument over what is TDEE and what is NEAT, and this is where I get confused. I don't have a regular exercise program yet - its a willpower issue I haven't figured out how to win, coupled with some pretty bad depression issues compounded by thyroid problems and probably other hormonal issues that my endocrinologist seems to think should be fine since she's got me on a high dosage of Synthroid to push my TSH way low as a treatment for thyroid cancer - and when I told her I was still feeling lethargic and tired all the time even with my TSH at 0.01, she told me that was because my metabolism was revving so high - even though I was setting my calorie goal 100 calories UNDER what the calculator gave me to achieve that 2 lb loss a week I was averaging when I started (and yes, I'd love to change endo's, but there's not exactly a lot of choice in my area).....
However, I also have been working on remodeling a house and will typically work on it, like painting ceilings and walls, for about 2 hours a night, around 3 nights a week (unless my dad comes over, which then requires us to stop what we need to do so he can do what he wants to do.......) and then several hours on Saturday. If I'm not painting, then I'm constantly crisscrossing the house to get things for Dad, carrying 2x4's, paneling sheets, or hammering things, and the like. Otherwise, I have a desk job that is very sedentary, though I have spurts of lots of drive time.
If I want to calculate daily caloric need by not factoring in regular exercise, would that be considered NEAT? And what multiplier should I be using? Most places I see give a calculator for TDEE and say to use 1.2 If you exercise between 1-3 hours per week. I have a hard time considering my activity to even be that - especially as I don't have a set exercise program - unless you want to count the 2 hours a week I spend crisscrossing Lowes Hardware for materials......
Since I don't have a regular exercise program, would I really be calculating NEAT instead of TDEE? And what multiplier should I be using?
If I go with the 1.2 multiplier, I get 2084 - so if I wanted to lose 2 lbs per week, I should be eating around 1100 or so calories a day, right? (which I know myself well enough to know I'd never be able to slash to that anyway, even if it could be considered safe - which I know its not). My current 1400 calories a day will then probably result in something more like a 1 lb loss a week - right? But would the 1.2 multiplier even be right, or would it actually be lower than that, considering I do a LOT of sitting during the day?
*sigh* this is all very, very confusing and discouraging, truthfully. I'm already fighting a losing battle with myself not to snack over the 1400 calories, so I know I'm just not going to be able to sustain myself on much less than that. I'd consider dropping to 2 meals a day, but again, the willpower isn't there to maintain a schedule like that - that drive to snack is extremely strong, and my will power is severely lacking......
I know the simplest and most obvious answer is to start exercising to earn back extra calories, but I just can't seem to find the willpower to force myself to do that (and the guilt of not doing what I know I SHOULD be doing doesn't help)....... I'm usually so tired of an evening, mentally, that some days I have a hard time evening fixing dinner because it seems to take too much energy. I know I'm depressed and that's a large part of my exhaustion and lack of motivation, but since my job is pretty much a huge contributor to it, but I have to have a job to pay the bills and have no way to work towards a career change - and have no idea what I'd be suited for even if I COULD change careers - I spend most days just closing my eyes and moving forward.
Sorry - I know I need to quit whining and making excuses and to buckle down and force myself to do something, and that people can't really help me if I can't get myself to do what is the obvious answer - and if the calculations above are right, then I'm definitely to the point where if I want to not plateau and keep losing weight (and I know that even at 94 lbs down from my highest weight, I'm not even close to victory in this area and obviously still have a long way to go to get even close to healthy), I'm going to have to start upping my CO somehow.
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NEAT is your calorie requirements before exercise. It would include things like steps taken, your job, running around after kids etc. You then add in your exercise calories when you exercise. This is the method MFP uses.
TDEE is the above all together in one number, you wouldn't log exercise separately.
I personally prefer the NEAT method of adding exercise on as and when because I'm not always consistent. I can go a week doing diddly and then a week getting in 6 workouts and a lot of walking. TDEE would generally be a bit of a nightmare although I am consistent enough over the longer term that I'd hope at some point to not need to log overly accurately (the elusive intuitive eating.
Do not slash your calories to 1100 gross, that's a one way ticket to misery. If that's what gets you 2lb per week loss then you don't lose 2lbs per week.
Just use MFP (which is the NEAT method). Your activity level selection should be honestly appropriate to your needs if not using a tracker. People often default choose sedentary when they are nothing of the sort. Log exercise. Eat at least some of those calories back. Reassess every couple of months as to progress and adjust as necessary (whether that's calorie goal or tightening up logging or assessing accuracy of exercise calories).
Don't get wrapped up in calculating the numbers yourself. If you use MFP with correct setup you'll soon enough have enough of your own personal data to make an assessment as to your needs.
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You may be making it more complicated than it needs to be. A lot of us do! First, TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure. That means all the calories you burn in a day. NEAT is Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis. Basically, all activity that burns calories that is not BMR and not intentional exercise.
Have you plugged the number into MFP? That will take a lot of the guesswork and having to understand all the variables out of it.3 -
Lol! I saw Vintage's post pop up just as I was finishing mine and thought, "she beat me to it and said what I going to say!" Aaaand I was right.1
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I have found that this premise works. Partly I think because our body gets used to what we are doing fairly quickly so the more you can "shake it up" the better. I prefer to also shake up the refeed days by alternating what micro group I eat more of . . . one week I will up my carbs on that day, the next week protein, the next week fat. I admit that I don't do a refeed day every week but often your body is more hungry the day after an intensive workout so it is a good day to eat a bit higher, but only up to maintenance level. I NEVER go above that number and never consider it a "cheat". Im only listening to my body and giving it the fuel it craves some days.0
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Everything Vintage said is spot on for you @bmeadows380.
Just use what MFP calculates for you. It's a good starting point for most people.
At this point, I know that you'd like to lose weight at the rate of 2 pounds a week, but I think it's best to just let go of that notion. See how many calories you get scaling back to losing at the rate of 1.5 pounds a week. It might be a more sane option. If you're still having trouble with that, scale back to a pound a week.
It's better to lose slowly and consistently than to be plagued by hunger and potentially face giving in to that hunger.
There may come a time down the line when you're in a better place regarding the issues surrounding your ability to exercise now, and you can always reevaluate things at that time.4 -
I have found that this premise works. Partly I think because our body gets used to what we are doing fairly quickly so the more you can "shake it up" the better. I prefer to also shake up the refeed days by alternating what micro group I eat more of . . . one week I will up my carbs on that day, the next week protein, the next week fat. I admit that I don't do a refeed day every week but often your body is more hungry the day after an intensive workout so it is a good day to eat a bit higher, but only up to maintenance level. I NEVER go above that number and never consider it a "cheat". Im only listening to my body and giving it the fuel it craves some days.
What you're doing sounds interesting, and potentially beneficial from a psychological stand point.
It should be noted, however, that the concept of the refeeds as outlined in the links provided upthread has specific macro recommendations and lengths (definitely longer than a day) for a reason. The hormones that you want to rebalance (due to eating at deficit) are sensitive/responsive to carbohydrates and need at least two days at maintenance caloric intake to respond.5 -
I have found that this premise works. Partly I think because our body gets used to what we are doing fairly quickly so the more you can "shake it up" the better. I prefer to also shake up the refeed days by alternating what micro group I eat more of . . . one week I will up my carbs on that day, the next week protein, the next week fat. I admit that I don't do a refeed day every week but often your body is more hungry the day after an intensive workout so it is a good day to eat a bit higher, but only up to maintenance level. I NEVER go above that number and never consider it a "cheat". Im only listening to my body and giving it the fuel it craves some days.
I'd recommend watching and reading the links provided. As above, it's about a very specific protocol with refeeds and again differences with refeeds vs diet breaks. It's great that what you are doing is helping psychologically but physiologically is probably another thing entirely. Which is the primary subject at hand in this thread.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I have found that this premise works. Partly I think because our body gets used to what we are doing fairly quickly so the more you can "shake it up" the better. I prefer to also shake up the refeed days by alternating what micro group I eat more of . . . one week I will up my carbs on that day, the next week protein, the next week fat. I admit that I don't do a refeed day every week but often your body is more hungry the day after an intensive workout so it is a good day to eat a bit higher, but only up to maintenance level. I NEVER go above that number and never consider it a "cheat". Im only listening to my body and giving it the fuel it craves some days.
What you're doing sounds interesting, and potentially beneficial from a psychological stand point.
It should be noted, however, that the concept of the refeeds as outlined in the links provided upthread has specific macro recommendations and lengths (definitely longer than a day) for a reason. The hormones that you want to rebalance (due to eating at deficit) are sensitive/responsive to carbohydrates and need at least two days at maintenance caloric intake to respond.
*fistbump*
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Okay, let's make this fun, bets on how much water weight Nony can gain on pred. I'm on day 3 of 5 at twice a day (though I can scale down as soon as the rash has cleared, so may get away with four days), and 5 days at once a day (though if I only do four at twice a day I may be able to do fewer at one as well, need to check with doctor on that. Ovulation around mid next week should also be taken into account. Could be Wednesday, could be Saturday, or anywhere in between.
7.5 kilos
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stanmann571 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Okay, let's make this fun, bets on how much water weight Nony can gain on pred. I'm on day 3 of 5 at twice a day (though I can scale down as soon as the rash has cleared, so may get away with four days), and 5 days at once a day (though if I only do four at twice a day I may be able to do fewer at one as well, need to check with doctor on that. Ovulation around mid next week should also be taken into account. Could be Wednesday, could be Saturday, or anywhere in between.
7.5 kilos
I'm going with 3.2.0 -
@Nony_Mouse, @anubis609, thank you for your kind words. They help tremendously. I've actually booked a session with a therapist just last week after my really bad episode. It took me seeing what others were going through in this thread and other threads here that prompted me to do it, something I would never have done previously. Fingers crossed!A small update from me - so much so for the accuracy of my numbers.
Quite an embarrassing confession to make but in the midst of all the conversions from kg to pounds (which I do for this forum and a couple of others), I had my calculations set up as 3500 cals = 1kg, not 1 pound. So my rate of loss the past 4 months was double what it should have been if the 3500 cals = 1 pound rule was taken.
For the science-y people in or reading this thread who may be interested, here are my numbers. And for those who may be scared to up their calories, so many great testimonials already from others who have posted but here's mine. While my monthly numbers do not match projected scale drops each month likely due to water weight, TOM, binging vs whoosh effect etc etc but taken overall, the numbers match (apart from the fact that I need to look at the CO part carefully now since my garmin may not be as accurate as I thought).
(ETA: October was the start of the Refeed approach)
I'm officially on a diet break now (aka maintenance) and will be on this till probably around March next year.
So you ate almost 1000 calories more and still lost weight.
Dont let the main forums now, they will freak the hell out.
Sorry if that has been pointed out, 4 pages behind lol IKR!
It was this thread that helped me decide to stick to upping cals and going maintenance (refeed) with a higher deficit. I think it was the whoosh effect which I mentioned right at the beginning (first few pages) of this thread AND not to mention, my training got sooo much better too. That was when I thought Holy hell, something's working here!
Next mission - finding how high I can go with calories!!
I actually almost want to make this a separate thread. Because the whole concept of eat more to lose more *kitten* blows peoples minds. I know I did it (went from 1800 to 2300 calories). Too many people just think in linear fashion that they can't fathom increase in EE driven by increase in calories (i.e., spontaneous changes in NEAT or increase in TEA).
And this concept doesn't even really include the usual fact of having much better workouts - transforming the body even more than possible at steep deficit.
So even when weight isn't lost as fast - the body can look like it has faster.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Everything Vintage said is spot on for you @bmeadows380.
Just use what MFP calculates for you. It's a good starting point for most people.
At this point, I know that you'd like to lose weight at the rate of 2 pounds a week, but I think it's best to just let go of that notion. See how many calories you get scaling back to losing at the rate of 1.5 pounds a week. It might be a more sane option. If you're still having trouble with that, scale back to a pound a week.
It's better to lose slowly and consistently than to be plagued by hunger and potentially face giving in to that hunger.
There may come a time down the line when you're in a better place regarding the issues surrounding your ability to exercise now, and you can always reevaluate things at that time.
I'll add to this discussion.
Many using MFP either don't know or don't understand or forgot that MFP is setup for NEAT method (which really isn't true because it includes BMR, TEF and NEAT, just not Exercise - but NEAT is abbreviated way of saying it).
It can be tweaked to use the weekly avg TDEE method - and you must use it differently, like don't log exercise if using this method.
But some will just advise you shouldn't log exercise because they come from other sites.
So it can be confusing @bmeadows380 if you don't understand how MFP works, and filter out advice that is not clarified and confusing in itself, or sometimes wrong too.
And just for reality on selecting MFP activity level - vast majority with trackers discover that Sedentary is less than 4000 steps every day of the week.
That is basically very minimal walking every single day, basically a bump on a log outside exercise (which you log when done, right).
Most seem to discover they are easily MFP's Lightly-Active if they have kids, pets, household duties, even with full-time desk job and commute.
So don't skimp on level to "be on the safe side".2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Okay, let's make this fun, bets on how much water weight Nony can gain on pred. I'm on day 3 of 5 at twice a day (though I can scale down as soon as the rash has cleared, so may get away with four days), and 5 days at once a day (though if I only do four at twice a day I may be able to do fewer at one as well, need to check with doctor on that. Ovulation around mid next week should also be taken into account. Could be Wednesday, could be Saturday, or anywhere in between.
7.5 kilos
I'm going with 3.2.
5.9 at the peak, from this corner of the world. Figuring 1.4 from ovulation, and then another 4.5 from the pred.1 -
collectingblues wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Okay, let's make this fun, bets on how much water weight Nony can gain on pred. I'm on day 3 of 5 at twice a day (though I can scale down as soon as the rash has cleared, so may get away with four days), and 5 days at once a day (though if I only do four at twice a day I may be able to do fewer at one as well, need to check with doctor on that. Ovulation around mid next week should also be taken into account. Could be Wednesday, could be Saturday, or anywhere in between.
7.5 kilos
I'm going with 3.2.
5.9 at the peak, from this corner of the world. Figuring 1.4 from ovulation, and then another 4.5 from the pred.
You're probably closer to correct. I missed the time scale and assumed a standard 15 day course vs 9 days.0 -
*Kitten* me 5.9 is a lot! Did you say you've already taken 3 of 5 total dosages? How much higher could you go in 2 more pills? I'm going to do Price is Right strategy and say $1. I mean 1 kilo.0
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thanks, guys!VintageFeline wrote: »I personally prefer the NEAT method of adding exercise on as and when because I'm not always consistent. I can go a week doing diddly and then a week getting in 6 workouts and a lot of walking. TDEE would generally be a bit of a nightmare although I am consistent enough over the longer term that I'd hope at some point to not need to log overly accurately (the elusive intuitive eating.
Do not slash your calories to 1100 gross, that's a one way ticket to misery. If that's what gets you 2lb per week loss then you don't lose 2lbs per week.
Just use MFP (which is the NEAT method). Your activity level selection should be honestly appropriate to your needs if not using a tracker. People often default choose sedentary when they are nothing of the sort. Log exercise. Eat at least some of those calories back. Reassess every couple of months as to progress and adjust as necessary (whether that's calorie goal or tightening up logging or assessing accuracy of exercise calories).
From what you've described, I've been basically doing the NEAT method all year - I'd set my limit to lowest sedentary number I found (the calculator at calculator.net is about 100 less than MFP), and would only very rarely add back in exercise. But I also know that I tend to sucumb to "picking" a bite here, a nibble there, so I just left off activity calories. And I would occasionally go back and adjust the calorie budget as time progress and I lost weight.
I do have time periods - weeks, sometimes - where I am very sedentary and its a struggle to just reach 4,000 steps. When I'm down - and that's unfortunately quite often - my energy levels just tank, and by the time I get home from work, fighting all day to just get through it, all I want to do is escape, so I end up spending the evening in a chair, reading.......
Though my activity has increased somewhat in the last month with all the remodeling going on.
I know there's no way I'd be able to handle 1100 calories gross - you are right; I'd be miserable and wouldn't be able to sustain it. That was why I was trying to figure out the TDEE and NEAT stuff!
I've lost 94 lbs in the last year, but I"m a glass half empty kind of person, and have a really hard time seeing that as an accomplishment when I know that I still have at minimum another 100 lbs to go; so when I see myself slowing down to less than 2 lbs, I get panicky, especially as this ain't my first time at this rodeo......
It doesn't help that curiosity leads me out into the main message boards - I know; really, really bad idea, all things considered! - and then I see folks hammering away at what defines "healthy" and know that I'm still a long, long ways off from their definition (I'm afraid I'm way too sensitive to the opinions of others; probably because I'm way too hard on myself)You may be making it more complicated than it needs to be. A lot of us do! First, TDEE is Total Daily Energy Expenditure. That means all the calories you burn in a day. NEAT is Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis. Basically, all activity that burns calories that is not BMR and not intentional exercise.
Have you plugged the number into MFP? That will take a lot of the guesswork and having to understand all the variables out of it.
Oh, I'm sure I'm making it more complicated lol I can't seem to do anything the easy way!GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Everything Vintage said is spot on for you @bmeadows380.
Just use what MFP calculates for you. It's a good starting point for most people.
At this point, I know that you'd like to lose weight at the rate of 2 pounds a week, but I think it's best to just let go of that notion. See how many calories you get scaling back to losing at the rate of 1.5 pounds a week. It might be a more sane option. If you're still having trouble with that, scale back to a pound a week.
It's better to lose slowly and consistently than to be plagued by hunger and potentially face giving in to that hunger.
There may come a time down the line when you're in a better place regarding the issues surrounding your ability to exercise now, and you can always reevaluate things at that time.
thank you!
I do know that I can't realistically expect to lose at 2 lbs forever. I was losing close to 3 lbs a week the first few weeks, but I was also starting at a very high weight, so I knew that was reasonable. It averaged out to 2 lbs a week for a very long time; it's only lately that I'm starting to have problems with it. It's frustrating as I haven't hit my first really big goal of losing 100 lbs - I've been flirting with it for a month now, but can't seem to get down to it, which scares me because I still have another 100 lbs to go - I know the less you weigh, the harder it gets to lose weight, but to start having problems already?
I deal with PCOS and thyroid issues which don't help, and was diagnosed as insulin resistant, though I'm not sure if that still applies considering what I have lost already. And then there's the depression - I go through some really bad weeks, and lately they've been increasing, and when I'm depressed, that seems to be open season on my self esteem....no one is harder on me than I am, and I've about perfected setting that achievement bar entirely too far up, but I haven't mastered quite yet the methods of learning to accept myself
And introvert that I am, I also spend way too much time alone with my thoughts - not a good idea; which then results in my epic posts on the forums. Sorry for that! Sometimes I just want to talk to another sentient human being! lol But I know that I get wordy and annoying fast - my coworkers start to get this "twitch" whenever I get overly conversant with them! course I work with mostly men 2 -
*Kitten* me 5.9 is a lot! Did you say you've already taken 3 of 5 total dosages? How much higher could you go in 2 more pills? I'm going to do Price is Right strategy and say $1. I mean 1 kilo.
Haha, well you've lost already then, unless I don't gain any more!
Up 1 kg so far, after three days of pred.
Technically I have two more days at full dose, then five days at the tapered once a day dose. Tapered dose will presumably have less effect, but still an effect. I will be playing it by ear each day from now based on pre-dinner rash status as to whether I'll take the second one, but I think it's safe to say that today I will, because I'm still getting the itch from hell at night (thanks, early summer). I also watched sodium yesterday and was just under the MFP line. *kitten* that, I can do without that obsessing, so I will just be eating as per normal, depending on what I feel like. For reference, sodium usually trends in the 3-4k mg range.
If we assume full course, which runs until Friday (and therefore may or may not take ovulation out of the equation, who the hell knows!!), I'm predicting 4.5 kg without ovulation weight. Add up to a kg more if I go longer cycle this month. Just as well I didn't rehome my old bras yet...
Basically, I am jacking the hell out of my cortisol level, and we all know the impact that can have.
I'm in two minds as to whether to log these weights into Fitbit and therefore Trendweight, cos it's going to skew the hell out of it. Thoughts? I am writing them down.
Does chocolate eaten half asleep in the middle of the night count? It was medicinal, choc-coated ginger, anti-inflammatory
(jks, I'll use it to lessen some of yesterday's deficit that wasn't meant to exist).
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@bmeadows380, is a Fitbit in the budget?2
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