KETO DIET: Reviews and Tips
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stevencloser wrote: »michelle172415 wrote: »100_PROOF_ wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »michelle172415 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!
Thanks for your help in advance.
xx
"Easy" would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find limiting carbohydrates to next to nothing very easy, nor would I find eating copious amounts of dietary fat easy or limiting protein easy.
I suppose it's easy for some who gravitate towards eating a ton of fat and have little interest in fruits and vegetables and other quality carbohydrates in more than the tiniest amounts.
Also keep in mind that initial losses on the scale are largely water and glycogen depletion...if you're planning on drinking alcohol on your trip, be prepared to put back on water weight and bloat.
This is a very uneducated opinion about Keto. I eat plenty of vegetables and :::gasp::: even some fruit. They aren't tiny amounts, often my lunch is a huge plate of salad with protein and then a homemade Balsamic Vinaigrette. Dinner is often grilled meat and a large side of veggies cooked in healthy fat. Honestly, the only thing I eat copious amounts of are leafy green veggies because I love them. And sometimes, I want a potato, so I eat a potato. Yes, initial weight lost is often water weight, but that is common with most any diet, and not exclusive to Keto.
And for the record, I never had the Keto Flu. I did my research before starting and simply upped my electrolyte consumption and when I did have that initial water weight loss, I felt perfectly fine.
Yeah, nah...
One medium apple is 25g of carbohydrate...boom...you've just gone over the 20 measly grams of carbohydrates that most keto dieters are doing. Saying that you don't have to restrict fruits and veg is a *kitten* premise.
Most of my carbohydrates come from fruits and veg and some oats and legumes...I'm well over keto limits with my healthy carbohydrates.
Oh no, there's no such thing as healthy carbs. Fruits and vegetables- devil carbs . Same as eating cake all day and all.
*Insert eyeroll*
But you can drink unlimited whipping cream mixed with oil. You can even eat at a calorie surplus every day because it's magic.
You can't gain weight on keto. Only magical muscle.
Hehehe
Honestly, you sound really uneducated about Keto. You are making such a gross generalization and couldn't be further off target. Yes, some people may "eat keto" the way that you are describing, but that way is not the intent of keto. I follow a Keto diet, feel free to take a peek at my diary, I am neither chugging whipping cream mixed with oil nor eating at a calorie surplus every day. Anyone doing Keto with a half an ounce of intelligence knows that you need to eat healthy, whole foods and be consuming less calories than you burn. We're not all morons.
There will always be people misrepresenting each dieting "ideology".
IIFYM is great, it works, it's proven to lose weight, but just like keto, people think it's the whole story. The whole point of losing weight should be - primarily - for health reasons. So IIFYM can be abused, for example: 1800kcals of cake - that isn't going to be healthy. But taking it such extremes is ignoring all the good it can achieve.
IMO, my favourite thing about keto (which I've only done for about 4-5 months, but had my best results for fat loss ever) was how little I craved any carbs or sugars. Currently just trying to eat healthily within IIFYM and struggling to lose weight because I get cravings here and there and end up making a few awful choices. That just didn't happen for me on keto. I gave it up though because I don't think it's sustainable long term for me personally. I love a pizza, or an actual burger with a bun etc. I like the odd sandwich. And I like a LOT of peppers, green beans, asparagus etc. I like a bit of milk in my coffee. A lot of little otherwise harmless things were sacrificed for keto. I like to eat out once a week, sometimes more. I hate going to a restaurant and paying full price for a meal I could only half enjoy.
I'll be back on keto, but I'll maybe use it as a functional weight loss diet, rather than a way of life. It worked for me before, so there's no reason why I can't do it again, if needed.
My priorities fall like so:
Try and eat within your calorie goals
Get adequate protein for muscle recovery/building
Get adequate fruits and veg for vitamins/fibre
Fill the rest with what I like the most
Can you tell me the kind of cake that would fit a proper macro split in iifym?
Very relevant question. Many people apparently think "IIFYM" is somehow an acronym for "eat nothing but junk food", or "eat whatever you want all the time". The key phrase in the acronym is "Fits Your Macros". Unless somebody has a ridiculously stupid macro split, they're not going to "FYM" eating 1800 calories of cake, or Snickers bars, or Big Macs. Or, for that matter, on 1800 calories of broccoli, kale or spinach.4 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Not aiming this at anyone in particular. I am addressing the direction that keto threads seem to usually go.
Perhaps people with a keto post and question could be could first be asked (trolled) if this is the first time in their life that they have tried to lose weight.... That is, if it is that important to you to make sure they don't first try a healthy diet that is just as successful as every other diet out there.
I really don't understand why people get so worried when someone limits sugars, grains and starchy carbs first. Nutritionally, those are not strong foods, and tend mainly to be just an energy source.... Which is exactly what one is trying to restrict to lose weight. You want to cut your energy intake.
Would those who caution against keto have people cut back on their eggs, meat, dairy, or leafy greens first instead of refined, highly processed, and nutritionally weak foods? Dieters have to restrict something. Restricting a little bit of everything, nutritionally strong or not, is not superior to restricting carbs.
And people continue to complain that keto'ers make outrageous claims... Most don't. Sure a few do but it is the minority. It comes at the same frequency that moderation/IIFYM/whatever dieters claim ACV is a weight loss secret, that one must use protein powder to lose weight, or that one must eat breakfast to rev up your metabolism. Don't assume all all keto dieters are preaching or clueless. I don't assume all moderation dieters think their diet is magical just because someone has the goofy belief that they must eat every 2-3 hours or their metabolism slows down.
I don't think we had any preaching or proselytizing in this thread but still, the trolling happens.
This is the original post:Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!
Thanks for your help in advance.
xx
This was part of one of the first responses:"Easy" would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find limiting carbohydrates to next to nothing very easy, nor would I find eating copious amounts of dietary fat easy or limiting protein easy?
No tips. No personal experiences offered. And incorrect information was given - only a medically prescribed therapeutic ketogenic diet restricts protein and those don't even do that much anymore (MCT is increased sometimes instead). Keto diets can end up with higher protein, which many believe is part of the satiating effects of keto.
It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:
"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"
That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.
Sharing knowledge and personal experience/opinion with whatever the topic at hand is, isn't derailing. It wasn't in the section you quoted, nor is it in the one you fabricated. But opinions stated as facts (for *any* diet) will be refuted here.
That's what makes MFP an actual learning experience for those who actually care to learn.
QFT! I think it is seen differently when one has an ideology to defend though.2 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Not aiming this at anyone in particular. I am addressing the direction that keto threads seem to usually go.
Perhaps people with a keto post and question could be could first be asked (trolled) if this is the first time in their life that they have tried to lose weight.... That is, if it is that important to you to make sure they don't first try a healthy diet that is just as successful as every other diet out there.
I really don't understand why people get so worried when someone limits sugars, grains and starchy carbs first. Nutritionally, those are not strong foods, and tend mainly to be just an energy source.... Which is exactly what one is trying to restrict to lose weight. You want to cut your energy intake.
Would those who caution against keto have people cut back on their eggs, meat, dairy, or leafy greens first instead of refined, highly processed, and nutritionally weak foods? Dieters have to restrict something. Restricting a little bit of everything, nutritionally strong or not, is not superior to restricting carbs.
And people continue to complain that keto'ers make outrageous claims... Most don't. Sure a few do but it is the minority. It comes at the same frequency that moderation/IIFYM/whatever dieters claim ACV is a weight loss secret, that one must use protein powder to lose weight, or that one must eat breakfast to rev up your metabolism. Don't assume all all keto dieters are preaching or clueless. I don't assume all moderation dieters think their diet is magical just because someone has the goofy belief that they must eat every 2-3 hours or their metabolism slows down.
I don't think we had any preaching or proselytizing in this thread but still, the trolling happens.
This is the original post:Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!
Thanks for your help in advance.
xx
This was part of one of the first responses:"Easy" would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find limiting carbohydrates to next to nothing very easy, nor would I find eating copious amounts of dietary fat easy or limiting protein easy?
No tips. No personal experiences offered. And incorrect information was given - only a medically prescribed therapeutic ketogenic diet restricts protein and those don't even do that much anymore (MCT is increased sometimes instead). Keto diets can end up with higher protein, which many believe is part of the satiating effects of keto.
It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:
"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"
That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.
Sharing knowledge and personal experience/opinion with whatever the topic at hand is, isn't derailing. It wasn't in the section you quoted, nor is it in the one you fabricated. But opinions stated as facts (for *any* diet) will be refuted here.
That's what makes MFP an actual learning experience for those who actually care to learn.
Personal experience and knowledge isn't being shared though. It's (sometimes misinformed) opinions.
Imagine this thread with keto or counting calories in it:
"I just started keto/calorie counting last week and am loving it! I never knew weight loss could be so easy. I'm looking for other dieters on the same journey. Please share our tips and personal experiences. Let's do this!"
A response to the keto thread might be:
"You know, all you need to lose weight is a calorie deficit. I could never cut out all carbs!"
Now consider almost the same response to a calorie counting thread along the same lines:
"You know, if you do keto your appetite may be suppressed and you won't need to calorie count. I could never bother with counting every calorie!"
I've been around these forums for a few years. I know which unhelpful scenario is more likely.14 -
It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.5
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Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!
Thanks for your help in advance.
xx
Not sure if you checked this website.
https://www.ruled.me/
Try it and you will see if this works for you. I have been Keto for 3 years, Good Luck.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Let me try to add some different perspective and relate it to another forum to understand why i go into a ton of variety of posts.
Of someone is new to diet, like exercise, they rarely do so with an extensive knowledge base. And often their decision to follow a respective diet or exercise routine may not align to their eating patterns or goals. This is an important factor that many people don't take into consideration.
If a person comes into the bodybuilding second section stating they want to gain muscle and then talk about a bro-split, than i would suggest a different routine. Why, because its highly inefficient for their goals. If someone ask about keto, but says they crave and love fruits or starches and find those satiating, than keto is unlikely a good model for them. Because honestly, the diet that you are going to find sustainable is the one that aligns to your natural eating patterns.
If a person struggles to moderate, than the best path is abstinence until a person learns how to moderate. Or remove those things for life to eliminate binges. If a person tends to like proteins and fats and are satiatied by those, than keto or low carb is a good path.
But what usually happens is a person has a friend or watches a documentary or YouTube and thinks its right for them. And statistically, it wont be. They can certainly try it but they should understand why they are doing it and what is required.
For someone like me, i chose a brutal path because moderation isnt working and structure is what i need.
Keto is a craze right now, no different than, Paleo was a few years ago. So it will get more attention in threads.7 -
OK, I have to confess I quit reading all the comments at page 5, lol but I wanted to weigh in (pun intended, lol). I did the Atkins diet years ago and here is what I learned. On low carb I lost very quickly at the beginning then I lost my appetite and weight loss slowed but with less appetite it seemed easier for a while. After a few months on the diet I couldn't take it anymore and was ready to sell my right arm for a potato. I had lost about 50 pounds tho. I quit the diet and promptly gained 12 pounds (in a week!). I realize now it was basically water as my gylcogen stores came back. I proceeded to regain the weight I lost fairly quickly as I made up for every carb I had missed. I didn't learn anything about a lifestyle change because I was not able to maintain the low carb lifestyle. So my personal experience was:
1) I lost weight.
2) I lost my appetite
3) the rebound weight gain was brutal.
4) I couldn't maintain the program.
Over the years I tried many times to do the diet again thinking I would lose then switch to healthy eating and maintain. It never worked for me. Once my gall bladder was removed I could no longer handle the high fat component of the diet so low carb was no longer even a possibility for me. I finally lost on MFP by making lifestyle changes I could live with permanently eg: logging my food and moving regularly. If you like the low carb lifestyle and it works for you there's nothing wrong with it but ultimately for me I had to find something I could do for the rest of my life. I'm down 104 pounds and maintaining now. Remember, ultimately this is YOUR program and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Do what works for you. Good luck on your journey.10 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Let me try to add some different perspective and relate it to another forum to understand why i go into a ton of variety of posts.
Of someone is new to diet, like exercise, they rarely do so with an extensive knowledge base. And often their decision to follow a respective diet or exercise routine may not align to their eating patterns or goals. This is an important factor that many people don't take into consideration.
If a person comes into the bodybuilding second section stating they want to gain muscle and then talk about a bro-split, than i would suggest a different routine. Why, because its highly inefficient for their goals. If someone ask about keto, but says they crave and love fruits or starches and find those satiating, than keto is unlikely a good model for them. Because honestly, the diet that you are going to find sustainable is the one that aligns to your natural eating patterns.
If a person struggles to moderate, than the best path is abstinence until a person learns how to moderate. Or remove those things for life to eliminate binges. If a person tends to like proteins and fats and are satiatied by those, than keto or low carb is a good path.
But what usually happens is a person has a friend or watches a documentary or YouTube and thinks its right for them. And statistically, it wont be. They can certainly try it but they should understand why they are doing it and what is required.
For someone like me, i chose a brutal path because moderation isnt working and structure is what i need.
Keto is a craze right now, no different than, Paleo was a few years ago. So it will get more attention in threads.
QFT!2 -
It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
6 -
@cheryldumais You're right, cheryl. No one has to ask anyone's permission to choose their pathway. When I was a kid, all of the parents were doing Atkins. They were eating giant hunks of cheddar cheese and roast beef slices. Most of them were locked up tighter than a drum. They were swilling water and dropping it like it was hot.
Some of them were combining the WW with Atkins, just leaving all of the carbs out. Remember those diet pates with a hamburger patty, cottage cheese and mealy tomato slices, everyone was having one of those when they went out. I was absorbing everything like a sponge and watched them closely. We learn by example.
Grandma was a WW lifer. Next came the Diet Center, dehydrated meal delivery and everyone could eat ak mak crackers with their diet plate. Ooo, and my grandma used appetite suppressant candy bars . She had to hide those because we would eat all of them. My grandmother's life was one big diet all of the days of her life. She never graduated. It skipped a generation and it landed on me.
I thought dieting was fun. I lived for the new diets in dippy magazines. Couldn't wait for the new woman's world diet every single week. After years of dieting comes the metabolic blowback. With every weight loss and dieting excursion and eating it all back with friends the ground grows colder with each passing day.2 -
cheryldumais wrote: »OK, I have to confess I quit reading all the comments at page 5, lol but I wanted to weigh in (pun intended, lol). I did the Atkins diet years ago and here is what I learned. On low carb I lost very quickly at the beginning then I lost my appetite and weight loss slowed but with less appetite it seemed easier for a while. After a few months on the diet I couldn't take it anymore and was ready to sell my right arm for a potato. I had lost about 50 pounds tho. I quit the diet and promptly gained 12 pounds (in a week!). I realize now it was basically water as my gylcogen stores came back. I proceeded to regain the weight I lost fairly quickly as I made up for every carb I had missed. I didn't learn anything about a lifestyle change because I was not able to maintain the low carb lifestyle. So my personal experience was:
1) I lost weight.
2) I lost my appetite
3) the rebound weight gain was brutal.
4) I couldn't maintain the program.
Over the years I tried many times to do the diet again thinking I would lose then switch to healthy eating and maintain. It never worked for me. Once my gall bladder was removed I could no longer handle the high fat component of the diet so low carb was no longer even a possibility for me. I finally lost on MFP by making lifestyle changes I could live with permanently eg: logging my food and moving regularly. If you like the low carb lifestyle and it works for you there's nothing wrong with it but ultimately for me I had to find something I could do for the rest of my life. I'm down 104 pounds and maintaining now. Remember, ultimately this is YOUR program and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Do what works for you. Good luck on your journey.
I apologize for using your response as an example, but this is a really nice and helpful post which refers to the OP's requests. Based on your experience, you listed the pros and the cons without belittling (like keto grows new limbs) or exaggerating (like keto is the only way) of either way of eating.
I wish for more responses in specific diet threads like yours. Cheers.
4 -
It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest3 -
It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest
Except no one is bashing keto and the only discussions that happen are when people make stupid claims about it.10 -
stevencloser wrote: »It looks to me there are very few here who view this as you do and those that do are keto advocates. Those with a more objective viewpoint, no so much.
Yeah, that is partially because they learned what source of response to expect and now post on other forums or in specific MFP groups, and partially because a minority are doing keto - most aim to use "eat less move more" only.
Sadly, my point is made here:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10677030/pro-keto-thread-or-group#latest
Except no one is bashing keto and the only discussions that happen are when people make stupid claims about it.
Not in that thread, no.
But that's not what I was getting at either. I did not say there was bashing. My point was that keto threads are derailed by people directing them away from trying it for some reason. People who are posting about keto aren't usually hoping to hear why keto is not needed or why it is unhealthy or unsafe - two reason of which are untrue, and third may be as well.
There is a reason that keto people are quickly directed away from the main boards, and no, it is not get them isolated to join the keto cult. ( heard that one more than a few times...) It is so the poster can get some real life info and ideas from people that keto is working for. If they want the keto cons, they are aren't directed to the keto groups for that, although they will find some answers there too.
If someone wants to eat a lot of tropical fruit, sure, keto may not be for them. If they say they think it will be hard because of lack of rice or bread, then it may not be for them either OR it could be perfect for them if those foods lead to overeating. But I'm hoping people will stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.9 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
11 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Your hypothesis that people who ask about keto must have tried other things first is flawed.
Advertising for how great keto is is everywhere. In fact, this very thread started with OP telling us she heard how easy it supposedly is and that's the reason she wants to do it. And she wanted reviews, it would be a pretty shady modus operandi to only allow positive reviews.
Your hypothesis that I am suggesting ALL people that choose LCHF or keto have tried other things is flawed.
Some people do find LCHF easy, I am certainly one of those people. Unless the OP gives it a try how do they know they wont find it as easy?
You are correct the OP was asking for advice on keto, I didn't however see her asking if people thought it was good or bad. I did notice the first two responses were advising against it and preaching IIFYM.
I was the 2nd respondent...I didn't advise against it...I gave my reasons why it wouldn't be particularly easy for me and how "easy" is pretty subjective...and I never said anything about IIFYM. Outside of cutting, I don't have any particular macro goals.
I typically do what I consider to be low carb when I cut my winter weight...usually around 130-150 grams...mostly because it's easier to reduce carbs somewhat than it is other macros...just not keto. I couldn't do it, but I've never advised against it. But people should know and understand what they're getting into. Where did I say it was "bad?"4 -
cheryldumais wrote: »OK, I have to confess I quit reading all the comments at page 5, lol but I wanted to weigh in (pun intended, lol). I did the Atkins diet years ago and here is what I learned. On low carb I lost very quickly at the beginning then I lost my appetite and weight loss slowed but with less appetite it seemed easier for a while. After a few months on the diet I couldn't take it anymore and was ready to sell my right arm for a potato. I had lost about 50 pounds tho. I quit the diet and promptly gained 12 pounds (in a week!). I realize now it was basically water as my gylcogen stores came back. I proceeded to regain the weight I lost fairly quickly as I made up for every carb I had missed. I didn't learn anything about a lifestyle change because I was not able to maintain the low carb lifestyle. So my personal experience was:
1) I lost weight.
2) I lost my appetite
3) the rebound weight gain was brutal.
4) I couldn't maintain the program.
Over the years I tried many times to do the diet again thinking I would lose then switch to healthy eating and maintain. It never worked for me. Once my gall bladder was removed I could no longer handle the high fat component of the diet so low carb was no longer even a possibility for me. I finally lost on MFP by making lifestyle changes I could live with permanently eg: logging my food and moving regularly. If you like the low carb lifestyle and it works for you there's nothing wrong with it but ultimately for me I had to find something I could do for the rest of my life. I'm down 104 pounds and maintaining now. Remember, ultimately this is YOUR program and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Do what works for you. Good luck on your journey.
I apologize for using your response as an example, but this is a really nice and helpful post which refers to the OP's requests. Based on your experience, you listed the pros and the cons without belittling (like keto grows new limbs) or exaggerating (like keto is the only way) of either way of eating.
I wish for more responses in specific diet threads like yours. Cheers.
Thank you 2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Lol, you wooers can woo away all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that a meta-analysis of 32 studies controlled for calories and protein intake showed no metabolic advantage to a ketogenic diet. Those woo must be the cheering kind!
So you can finally admit keto and LCHF is as good your IIFYM diet!
Just what many of us have been saying for year! Gotta love science.
Woo away!
This is going to blow your mind but @mmapags follows a low carb diet.
It’s a good choice.
He must be happy he’s on a diet that’s as good as it gets
There can be many ways of eating that can be as good as it gets. LC/ Keto is only one.
I'm going to level with you. You always seem to be spoiling for some kind of argument where one doesn't exist and spinning what people say to advocate for a point of view. You say you agree with psulemon on the 10 to 20% number yet you always play the white knight for LC/Keto diets.
You've never once asked what my eating plan is and why. You just assume I'm anti LC/Keto and think you have to be the white knight for the case. I am pro science. That's it.
I don't eat low carb for any other reason than it is my natural preference. And I don't eat high fat at all. I am mostly a high protein and high fiber vegetable and fruit eater. That is just my natural preference and how I am most satisfied to eat. I learned, based on the available research, a long time ago that there are only a few variable that matter. 1) activity and fitness, 2) calorie control 3) eating in a way that supports your goals and is sustainable. After calories, protein is the #1 priority and after that the rest just seems to fall into place.
So, high protein, high fiber veggies and fruits and getting a minimal amount of fats to keep the body functioning properly. Neither pro or anti fat. Just not a prefered food.
I overate eating that way and have lost 30lbs to get myself back to a reasonable healthy weight range. So eating low carb did nothing for me without monitoring calories. So eating LC without monitoring calories was a poor proposition for me.
I could lose about 10 or 15 more to be ideal. For 67 years old, I'm very fit. I have solid weight lifting numbers for my age group and get a reasonable amount of cardio. My labs are exceptional every year for the last several years for cholesterol, triglycerides and A1c.
Exercise and calorie management are the things most responsible for my good health. Simple as that.
So, a suggestion. If you agree with me, as you said, and you agree with psulemon, as you said, maybe give it a rest with the white knighting and ax grinding regarding keto. Just sayin'.....
I'm not spoiling for anything, but it does aggravate me when people post on these forums looking for help and assistance, as they try and find a new way of eating to help them hit a calorie deficit and are almost immediately side tracked on their efforts.
I would suggest that for most people looking at LCHF or KETO they haven't chosen it as a first option and have tried the IIFYM moderation route, or alternative routes and they maybe didn't work for them, it doesn't for a lot of people.
But rather than offer assistance on the topic the OP has asked the question of, on many occasions the IIFYM / Calorie Counted is offered as an alternative, before actually addressing the OP's original question....why? If you are pro science then why try and steer someone away from something that might work for them?
As I mentioned, I have never once claimed LCHF is better than any other diet, I have never once claimed that LCHF works beyond CICO. Also I have never once had the arrogance or ignorance to jump onto the calorie counting thread and preach LCHF, when the OP is clearly asking information on calorie counting / IIFYM. just sayin'....
So, a suggestion. As we are all in agreement that LCHF/Keto is as optimal as IIFYM/Calorie Counting, why don't we just address the OP's questions. If they want to give LCHF a go, good for them, lets help them get the tools and information they need to make it a success.
Your hypothesis that people who ask about keto must have tried other things first is flawed.
Advertising for how great keto is is everywhere. In fact, this very thread started with OP telling us she heard how easy it supposedly is and that's the reason she wants to do it. And she wanted reviews, it would be a pretty shady modus operandi to only allow positive reviews.
Your hypothesis that I am suggesting ALL people that choose LCHF or keto have tried other things is flawed.
Some people do find LCHF easy, I am certainly one of those people. Unless the OP gives it a try how do they know they wont find it as easy?
You are correct the OP was asking for advice on keto, I didn't however see her asking if people thought it was good or bad. I did notice the first two responses were advising against it and preaching IIFYM.
I was the 2nd respondent...I didn't advise against it...I gave my reasons why it wouldn't be particularly easy for me and how "easy" is pretty subjective...and I never said anything about IIFYM.
I typically do what I consider to be low carb when I cut my winter weight...usually around 130-150 grams...just not keto. I couldn't do it, but I've never advised against it. But people should know and understand what they're getting into. Where did I say it was "bad?"
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was referring to upthread when I said "spoiling for an argument". Taking things out of context, spinning them in a negative way and then disputing them. Kind of setting up strawmen to then be able to knock them down.9 -
stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.
"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.
I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.
For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!
But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.
And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.
Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.
Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.
But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.
It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.
I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.
I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.
In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.
The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.6 -
Side note, @nvmomketo how can you say grains and starches have no nutritional value? Many of them are very nutritional dense. Things like potatoes are full of potassium and fiber, as well as other nutrients. Definitely far superior to many things like butter, creams, oils and many other items. Also, things like potatoes have been linked to high levels of satiety.
Sure there are a fee items that arent as nutritional dense, but saying all of them is wrong. I certainly don't have issue with people limiting these though.14
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