KETO DIET: Reviews and Tips

mmapags

nvmomketo wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.

"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.

I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.

For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!

But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.

And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.

Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:

I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.

Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.

But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.

It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.

I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.

I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.

In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.

The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.

A lot of your post contains a logic fault called generalizing from the specific. Just because you are only of the 10% to 20% keto is a great fit for doesn't mean that "many", as you stated, find it easy to do and not restrictive. That means that "some" find it easy to do and not restrictive.

And sure, ask the questions of any dieter. For "many" the answers will be obvious because a more flexible diet plan has a possible higher compliance rate. But no guarantees. Most diets fail. For reasons that have nothing to do with how easy or complicated they are to follow in my opinion. I'd love to see a statistical analysis of success rates of different diets, if such a thing exists.

You are so deep into advocacy that your posts show that you lack any real objectivity. That can happen when someone finds the "thing" that worked for them. It makes them a believer and they then begin to believe that their "thing" has much broader application. It does in only a very limited way.

And that doesn't change the fact of that "thing" will only work for 10% to 20% of people looking for a solution and fundamentally carries no metabolic advantage.

nvmomketo

psuLemon wrote: »

Side note, @nvmomketo how can you say grains and starches have no nutritional value? Many of them are very nutritional dense. Things like potatoes are full of potassium and fiber, as well as other nutrients. Definitely far superior to many things like butter, creams, oils and many other items. Also, things like potatoes have been linked to high levels of satiety.

Sure there are a fee items that arent as nutritional dense, but saying all of them is wrong. I certainly don't have issue with people limiting these though.

I tried to specify carbs that are refined and highly processed but I may have forgotten to type in the whole phrase a few times. That was primarily what I have tried to refer to. I'd much rather have my kids eat a starchy potato than a slice of bread or drink a soda.

I do believe that items like bread or candy are nutritionally on the weak side unless fortified. Potatoes are better, but better does not mean nutritionally strong - just better than something else. There are lots of other foods that are nutritiously strong like salmon, an egg, steaks, or some whole plant foods like nuts or whatever.

I don't consider fibre a nutrient though - more of a non nutrient that helps with carbohydrate digestion. JMO

Pure fats are also nutritionally poor. Just energy. And quite gross to consider eating on their own, IMO.

Satiety does not have much to do with nutrition, except one might be driven to eat more in order to get the nutrients they are lacking,

nvmomketo

mmapags wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

mmapags wrote: »

stop assuming keto may not be right for someone just because they posted. By that logic, everyone who has a diet question should be grilled if their dietary choice is right for them.

"grilled" is quite a venture into hyperbole. But I agree with your statement. If someone is saying they want info on a highly structured, somewhat restrictive diet, yes, I think they should be asked why What are their goals? What are their expectations? Do they really understand what they are getting into? Before a recommendation is made. If the logic follows that 80% to 90% of these type of diets fail, sure they should be questioned. I think it is only responsible.

I'm specifically referring to diets like Paleo, Keto, Low Fat, Low Carb, Mediterranean, Atkins, Palm Beach and the others that have restriction that may or may not be sustainable.

For other ways of eating, like flexible dieting or IIFYM, that are based on an individualized set of goals and preferences and based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, not so much. And that is not to say that because those are simpler to structure that they are easy to do. Calorie restriction isn't easy to do in any form!

But that doesn't change the fact that it is highly individualized what a person can or can't comply with nor the fact that there is no metabolic advantage for one over the other, including keto, as is demonstrated by the meta-analysis of 32 studies with calories and protein controlled.

And that is a large part of the pushback. The claims that have been made for keto having such an advantage.

Another part of the pushback on keto these days is, as psulemon has pointed out, it is the fad diet du jour. Just look at the OPs post:

I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days.

Does this sound like someone who has thought this through and understands what they are getting into?? And this is only one of many posts like this every day. To me, the only people don't understand why there is this kind of pushback or those that lack a healthy objectivity regarding keto diets.

But I did not specify that we question (yes, grilled was a exaggeration) only those with a highly structured and somewhat restrictive diet. I said everyone with a diet plan.

It is just an opinion that a diet that restricts mainly only certain foods, rather than restricting all foods, is harder to do - ie. more restrictive. Many don't see it that way. I find it MUCH easier to restrict carbs than all foods. Those who stick with keto or low carb do not. You don't.

I sometimes wonder why people keep trying to only moderate their intake/IIFYM if they have dieted repeatedly. If they try it once and it worked, great. It they keep trying it and falling off the wagon (presumed lay because it is hard or too restrictive) I think it might be wise to try some different food choices.

I DID find keto super easy after the first week. Shockingly so. And I thought it through and researched it for months before starting. Three years later I'm still doing it and feel I am fairly well read on the topic. The OP's initial statement was not off at all, IMO.

In the end, I think correcting misconceptions by individuals on a specific diet is fine and helpful. Mocking the diet or those who do it is not. Most people who do keto honestly don't believe that it is magic or it will grow back limbs. No need to mock all keto'ers because of the few who are misinformed.... No need to mock the few either, just correct them and move on.

The last is not directed at you. It's just something I'd like to see around here. I realize keto is popular now, and it's frequency irks some people, but popularity does not make it wrong for some to do. It just overexposes the diet to those who are not interested in it... But then I wonder why they click on the keto threads if they're so sick of it.

A lot of your post contains a logic fault called generalizing from the specific. Just because you are only of the 10% to 20% keto is a great fit for doesn't mean that "many", as you stated, find it easy to do and not restrictive. That means that "some" find it easy to do and not restrictive.

And sure, ask the questions of any dieter. For "many" the answers will be obvious because a more flexible diet plan has a possible higher compliance rate. But no guarantees. Most diets fail. For reasons that have nothing to do with how easy or complicated they are to follow in my opinion. I'd love to see a statistical analysis of success rates of different diets, if such a thing exists.

You are so deep into advocacy that your posts show that you lack any real objectivity. That can happen when someone finds the "thing" that worked for them. It makes them a believer and they then begin to believe that their "thing" has much broader application. It does in only a very limited way.

And that doesn't change the fact of that "thing" will only work for 10% to 20% of people looking for a solution and fundamentally carries no metabolic advantage.

Apologies for not making my wording specific enough. I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive. They don't. If it was too restrictive for them they would quit fairly quickly - within weeks or a handful of months. They wouldn't be keto'ers anymore. Really, I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.

I am a low carb and Keto advocate. I agree. I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.

I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?

tennisdude2004

nvmomketo wrote: »

Not aiming this at anyone in particular. I am addressing the direction that keto threads seem to usually go.

Perhaps people with a keto post and question could be could first be asked (trolled) if this is the first time in their life that they have tried to lose weight.... That is, if it is that important to you to make sure they don't first try a healthy diet that is just as successful as every other diet out there.

I really don't understand why people get so worried when someone limits sugars, grains and starchy carbs first. Nutritionally, those are not strong foods, and tend mainly to be just an energy source.... Which is exactly what one is trying to restrict to lose weight. You want to cut your energy intake.

Would those who caution against keto have people cut back on their eggs, meat, dairy, or leafy greens first instead of refined, highly processed, and nutritionally weak foods? Dieters have to restrict something. Restricting a little bit of everything, nutritionally strong or not, is not superior to restricting carbs.


And people continue to complain that keto'ers make outrageous claims... Most don't. Sure a few do but it is the minority. It comes at the same frequency that moderation/IIFYM/whatever dieters claim ACV is a weight loss secret, that one must use protein powder to lose weight, or that one must eat breakfast to rev up your metabolism. Don't assume all all keto dieters are preaching or clueless. I don't assume all moderation dieters think their diet is magical just because someone has the goofy belief that they must eat every 2-3 hours or their metabolism slows down.

I don't think we had any preaching or proselytizing in this thread but still, the trolling happens.

This is the original post:

Thinking about trying the keto diet. I am trying to cut just a few pounds for a summer trip that I am taking with a couple of my friends. I have heard that keto is super easy to do after the initial two days. Please advise on how long it took for you to lose X number of pounds and to see the results or how long it took to get over the "keto flu" or tips on how to manage or good food to eat. Just any tips. Wanting to start soon!

Thanks for your help in advance.

xx

This was part of one of the first responses:

"Easy" would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find limiting carbohydrates to next to nothing very easy, nor would I find eating copious amounts of dietary fat easy or limiting protein easy?

No tips. No personal experiences offered. And incorrect information was given - only a medically prescribed therapeutic ketogenic diet restricts protein and those don't even do that much anymore (MCT is increased sometimes instead). Keto diets can end up with higher protein, which many believe is part of the satiating effects of keto.

It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:

"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"

That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.

This ^^^^^

mmapags

I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive.

Well, yeah. That's why they are doing it. And as previously mentioned, they represent about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 of the population.

For many others, they do find it restrictive. But, by definition, Keto is restrictive. You restrict carbs. Some are OK with that. Others aren't. Other than a few radical fringe posters, no one is denying that. Some are saying it was too restrictive for them and others are saying, why if there is no metabolic advantage? There also may be reasons why, like IR or cravings. Most folks not so much.

I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.

Could be. Most diets don't have great compliance rates. If you have data on compliance rates please to post. But, so what? That doesn't make keto a universal solution for a large swath of the population. It is just one tool with viable application for some. Only an advocate who does not view it objectively would think that. Same as said above and has been said many times by me and a lot of others, for some yes, for most no.

I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.

And conversely, I'm hoping someone doesn't get trolled into thinking there are benefits to it that don't really exist beyond what the research shows. Sometimes Keto advocates, including you, shade the facts with bias in inaccurate ways mixing opinion and editorial comment in and making unverifiable claims. How is that any better? That is what gets so much pushback along with the "Keto as the diet du jour" factor.

I prefer to present verifiable info and let the intelligent reader decide for themselves. If someone would be talked out of doing something they felt was beneficial be some stranger on the internet, their issues with living life are bigger than their diet.

I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?

Lol, classic editorializing. No misdirection. It's simple. Keto worked for you. Great. You are now an advocate, by your own admission. So, keto is your "thing". The "thing" you believe in. You now have a bias and are no longer objective. So, you tend to shade everything to support your "thing." AKA confirmation bias.

It has been recognized and called out to you many times by many people. That's why you view others saying it didn't work for them as anti-keto or tell them they just didn't try long enough. You take on the role of a white knight for keto and all those who have a question about it. That's part of what so many react so poorly to in many of your posts and why you get such pushback.

The people whose opinions I trust around here are the ones that will consider proof sources and look at things without confirmation bias and be influenced by high quality data.

LiftHeavyThings27105

Can't we all just get along? Hold on....why does that sound so familiar to me? :-)

nvmomketo

LiftHeavyThings27105 wrote: »

Can't we all just get along? Hold on....why does that sound so familiar to me? :-)

That's the way it goes around here. LOL we start out on topic, it turns into a debate, and then eventually turns into more of a personal attack.

nvmomketo

mmapags wrote: »

I meant many keto'ers feel the ketogenic diet is not too restrictive.

Well, yeah. That's why they are doing it. And as previously mentioned, they represent about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 of the population.

For many others, they do find it restrictive. But, by definition, Keto is restrictive. You restrict carbs. Some are OK with that. Others aren't. Other than a few radical fringe posters, no one is denying that. Some are saying it was too restrictive for them and others are saying, why if there is no metabolic advantage? There also may be reasons why, like IR or cravings. Most folks not so much.

I don't think the rate of quitting keto is any higher than any other diet: moderation, IIFYM, Mediterranean, whatever. I've actually read it has a slightly higher compliance rate than other diets but I don't remember where I have seen it said. If I have time, I'll look for it.

Could be. Most diets don't have great compliance rates. If you have data on compliance rates please to post. But, so what? That doesn't make keto a universal solution for a large swath of the population. It is just one tool with viable application for some. Only an advocate who does not view it objectively would think that. Same as said above and has been said many times by me and a lot of others, for some yes, for most no.

I'm hoping people who want to try keto, or learn about it are not trolled to not look into it or to avoid trying it based on someone's ill informed opinion of the diet.

And conversely, I'm hoping someone doesn't get trolled into thinking there are benefits to it that don't really exist beyond what the research shows. Sometimes Keto advocates, including you, shade the facts with bias in inaccurate ways mixing opinion and editorial comment in and making unverifiable claims. How is that any better? That is what gets so much pushback along with the "Keto as the diet du jour" factor.

I prefer to present verifiable info and let the intelligent reader decide for themselves. If someone would be talked out of doing something they felt was beneficial be some stranger on the internet, their issues with living life are bigger than their diet.

I do not understand what you mean when you say I think my "thing" has a broader application. I've applied keto to improved health for some and an easier time managing weight for some. What are you trying to get at with your redirection?

Lol, classic editorializing. No misdirection. It's simple. Keto worked for you. Great. You are now an advocate, by your own admission. So, keto is your "thing". The "thing" you believe in. You now have a bias and are no longer objective. So, you tend to shade everything to support your "thing." AKA confirmation bias.

It has been recognized and called out to you many times by many people. That's why you view others saying it didn't work for them as anti-keto or tell them they just didn't try long enough. You take on the role of a white knight for keto and all those who have a question about it. That's part of what so many react so poorly to in many of your posts and why you get such pushback.

The people whose opinions I trust around here are the ones that will consider proof sources and look at things without confirmation bias and be influenced by high quality data.

By you logic, everyone has a bias then. Everyone has something they believe in unless they have no choice in their food. IIFYM, moderation, calorie counting, vegetarian, low carb, intuitive eating, whatever.

I think it was a redirection. We were talking about keto and how keto threads are treated and then you turned it around onto me. The keto white knight.... Trying to help people with keto questions, which is apparently a bad thing, so I get pushback. Okay then.

The bolded is untrue (although I'll take the keto white knight label). You're telling me that I think people are anti-keto because it didn't work for them? Really? Telling what I think? That's just funny.

I don't tell people they didn't do keto long enough if they say it didn't work for them. Again, funny and made up.

I don't want another keto thread removed so I'll stop responding to you (again) since this thread is no longer about keto but rather about what you think of me.

goonballoon

nvmomketo wrote: »

It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:

"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"

That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.

This is true. I'm new but I can see there is an atmosphere here that is very welcoming and encouraging of negativity and criticism about the keto diet. I am absolutely certain that I would get loads of attention if, outside the context of a debate, I made a unsupportable claim about keto, but would be utterly ignored if I made an unsupportable claim about a simple CICO diet also outside the context of debate.

That means that most keto people probably feel all the time like they can't say anything without being unreasonably careful about every word they use, making sure they phrase everything exactly right, knowing that if they say something that could be construed as slightly unscientific, it will be attacked. That's a very toxic atmosphere.

The kind of people who would stay in an atmosphere like this probably have emotional issues. So you are selecting for that. You are selecting for irrational, unstable keto proponents.

Those of us who are mathematicians who subscribe to rationality blogs and make a continuous effort to correct four our cognitive biases, we're not going to stick around here.

The last thing I would ever do is try to have a conversation here about keto. I'm brand new here and I can see what a toxic environment this is for people who respond well to this diet.

And, before you construct ad hominems about my motivation, I personally think it's a bizzarro diet and I'm constantly wondering if there's something else at play for me that keto solved accidentally. Like, I got tested for gluten intolerance because I thought maybe I had that and keto made me feel so amazing because it necessarily excludes gluten. I don't fully trust that it's actually the keto.

There are buckets full of causal ambiguity about my response to this diet and I see that very clearly.

This place is not where I should have that conversation, though. That is incredibly clear to me.

janejellyroll

goonballoon wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

It would be like a keto'er jumping into a moderation weight loss thread with:

"Easy would be highly subjective and individual. Personally, I wouldn't find torturing yourself with limited tastes of baked goods that stimulate the appetite, nor would I find the frequent blood glucose swings and hangries while limiting calories easy?"

That generally doesn't happen, whereas keto threads are regularly derailed.

This is true. I'm new but I can see there is an atmosphere here that is very welcoming and encouraging of negativity and criticism about the keto diet. I am absolutely certain that I would get loads of attention if, outside the context of a debate, I made a unsupportable claim about keto, but would be utterly ignored if I made an unsupportable claim about a simple CICO diet also outside the context of debate.

That means that most keto people probably feel all the time like they can't say anything without being unreasonably careful about every word they use, making sure they phrase everything exactly right, knowing that if they say something that could be construed as slightly unscientific, it will be attacked. That's a very toxic atmosphere.

The kind of people who would stay in an atmosphere like this probably have emotional issues. So you are selecting for that. You are selecting for irrational, unstable keto proponents.

Those of us who are mathematicians who subscribe to rationality blogs and make a continuous effort to correct four our cognitive biases, we're not going to stick around here.

The last thing I would ever do is try to have a conversation here about keto. I'm brand new here and I can see what a toxic environment this is for people who respond well to this diet.

And, before you construct ad hominems about my motivation, I personally think it's a bizzarro diet and I'm constantly wondering if there's something else at play for me that keto solved accidentally. Like, I got tested for gluten intolerance because I thought maybe I had that and keto made me feel so amazing because it necessarily excludes gluten. I don't fully trust that it's actually the keto.

There are buckets full of causal ambiguity about my response to this diet and I see that very clearly.

This place is not where I should have that conversation, though. That is incredibly clear to me.

I have seen people corrected when they make incorrect or unsupported claims about calorie counting or keto. Since you're new, it's understandable you may not have seen it yet. But trust me, it happens and it happens frequently.

Misinformation -- whether it's about keto, calorie counting, or whatever -- typically is addressed here.

As far as diagnosing emotional problems for the posters here who practice keto -- that seems like a huge reach. There are all kinds of people practicing keto here and their rate of emotional maladjustment doesn't seem to be higher than that of everyone else.

snickerscharlie

This thread has distracted me from eating, so there's that.

psuLemon

Thread closed.