Coronavirus prep
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One of the top health experts said the experts don't even understand it.
'It floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. The hands can't hit what the eyes can't see.'
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'Rona is Rope-A-Dope.
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SuzySunshine99 wrote: »It's interesting, we're seeing a lot of the same arguments that came up when public places and private businesses all started to ban smoking. People lamented about their personal freedoms and said "If I want to take the risk, then that's my business and my right."
How was it when seat belt use became mandatory in automobiles? Were there contingents running around stamping their feet and complaining that their freedom to splatter themselves on pavement at high velocity was being taken away?
Is anyone old enough to remember?
I was pretty young when it became law here so I wouldn't have been aware of any backlash.
I lived in Nebraska at the time...yes, there were plenty of people complaining that their freedoms were being trampled...my parents included.5 -
jseams1234 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Theoldguy1 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Here, in Italy, some masks are becoming fashion statements. The guy at the coffee bar has a big black mustache on his. In Rome, most are wearing masks and there are no protests as in the States. Some refuse to wear one, but can't enter stores, or other establishments without. I would put forward that fashion is a huge motivator. If famous people started wearing them and were interviewed, I dare say things might change.
I would suggest that most people not wearing masks couldn't give a rat's behind what some "influencer" (man I hate that word) or self-defined fashion expert wearing a mask was saying.
Oh yeh? Don't hang around young folks much, do you?
It's not really the young people here not complying...it's mostly middle age, "you can't take my freedoms" people. It has also stupidly become a big partisan politics thing.
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Politics lean waaaaaay to one direction here. I've been out with the wife quite a bit lately, both to the beach in Pacifica and to downtown San Carlos, Redwood City and San Mateo for walks and outdoor dining. What I've anecdotally experienced here is it's almost ALWAYS teens and adults in their 20's running around without masks and we have had new orders since last week mandating them except for very specific situations... and a bustling downtown where consistent social distancing is impossible on most streets isn't one of them. The older people, as in this thread, seem hyper aware of the dangers and are taking things much more seriously than most.
edit: not to mention the young parents in my neighborhood that have been meeting in the grassy commons for the last two months allowing their very young children to play together while they stand around, sans masks, talking to each other.
In NM we're only required to wear masks when going into a store, etc. They aren't required for just being out and about outside. If that was required, there would be massive non-compliance across the spectrum. I don't think most teens and 20s around here are ballsy enough to tell security at the front of the store to *kitten* off and not wear a mask.7 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
That's simply not true, and we have live examples for that. Herd immunity is much harder to achieve than you think and may take several years. If you look at the numbers in Sweden. They don't have the typical disease curve or even close, their numbers look like a semi-linear (recently increasing) up and down every few days wave and this has been going for several months without even a sign of a peak or a trend down.11 -
Washington state where I live has gone to mandatory masks when in public with up to $1000 fine for non-compliance. It goes into effect Friday. I don't know how stringent that fine will be, but with cameras in every location, it's not going to be hard to prove. Still not required if outdoors and able to give six feet distance. Whew. I can still walk in my quiet neighborhood without a mask. I guess I'll have to take one now, just in case.
Just wear the dang masks. Geez. I'm glad there are now $$$ teeth in this though. Up till now it's been, "Please wear them, we trust you to be a good person."
Now? Shut up or pay up. 16 -
cmriverside wrote: »Washington state where I live has gone to mandatory masks when in public with up to $1000 fine for non-compliance. It goes into effect Friday. I don't know how stringent that fine will be, but with cameras in every location, it's not going to be hard to prove. Still not required if outdoors and able to give six feet distance. Whew. I can still walk in my quiet neighborhood without a mask. I guess I'll have to take one now, just in case.
Just wear the dang masks. Geez. I'm glad there are now $$$ teeth in this though. Up till now it's been, "Please wear them, we trust you to be a good person."
Now? Shut up or pay up.
Tucson and Phoenix have done the same, but as we speak there's an "anti-mask" rally going on in Phoenix (Scottsdale). On social media, at least they are getting brutalized. I'm sorry, but that's just not too bright of folks right there.
All I can say is I'm glad I live in semi-bubble community and work from home. People won't comply with masks until they know someone in their family in the ICU being told they might not make it. I wish that it would simply be Darwinism but others are put at risk for the "liberties" of the selfish.9 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
The immunity thing is not well established yet. Here's a link ( http://bitly.ws/8RpF )to a Reuters article that talked about a small study published in Nature Medicine this month, with this lede: "Levels of an antibody found in recovered COVID-19 patients fell sharply in 2-3 months after infection for both symptomatic and asymptomatic patients, according to a Chinese study, raising questions about the length of any immunity against the novel coronavirus." I'm going to get hold of the Nature pub - the Reuters summary quoted another researcher (not involved in the study) noting that the study was small and that the precipitous drop in antibodies after a couple of months did not preclude other immune system processes offering some infection.
But the bottom line is that the science has not yet proven that having had the virus once means one is immune to subsequent covid-19 infection.16 -
I am gonna say it and if I get downvoted to heck then so be it.
I wear a mask the vast VAST majority of time. However, I have PTSD and a trigger is having something over my face/mouth. This is due to 2 different incidents (one medical and one not). 95% of the time I can handle it long enough to get my groceries and leave the store. 5% of the time I can't. However, the times I have had trouble didn't start to manifest until I was IN the store and doing my shopping. I HAD to remove my mask before I went into a full blown attack and started screaming or crying or even falling to the floor in a ball. I had to then find a quiet spot in the store to get my body to stop the "fight or flight" reaction. I then had to finish my shopping without a mask (though I became even more diligent about staying far away from people).
Have you ever seen someone have a panic attack or PTSD episode? It's not pretty.
I guess all I am saying is to not just jump to conclusions if someone isn't wearing a mask at that specific moment in time. Not everyone not wearing one is doing so because "MEH FREEDOM!!". Not everyone not wearing one has a "death wish". Are those people out there? Absolutely and they annoy the heck out of me because they make it harder for everyone else.
Thank you for making that effort, when you can manage. That's the mark of character and kindness.
I appreciate that some do have health conditions that prevent mask wearing, or limit it, and that those conditions go beyond breathing issues, or generally beyond anything that may be visible.
What I'm about to type are generalities, sort of stereotypes, and I know they don't apply universally. They're my observations, no one else's. With that said, I think there are two frequent patterns among people I see being mask non-compliant (not wearing, wearing below nose, etc.).
One is what I'd call the "clueless" pattern. Those people usually have a mask these day, but are either not wearing it or are wearing it wrong. In a grocery store, they're wandering around kind of focused on their own objectives, and not paying attention to others. They often look lost or confused, subjectively speaking (example: couple, man and woman talking then pointing in various directions as if they don't know where something is). The often park their cart in the traffic pattern to check their list or walk off to fetch something. If they see a thing they want, they seem oblivious to anything but that, paying no attention to aisle-direction arrows, whether they're passing close to other people (even bumping or cutting off others on the way). I suspect some of them do have health conditions that contribute to both mask noncompliance and their cognitive fog.
The other is what I'd call the "defiant" pattern. These people rarely have a mask visible, even in cases where they needed one to get in the store. They're aggressive, cutting in between people who are making obvious efforts to maintain 6 feet between each other. If someone moves back from them or shows extra-compliant behavior, sometimes there's a defiant stare or head-to-foot scan. In groups, they may laugh and give each other smirk-y looks when this happens. They sometimes seem almost to make an extra effort to get close to others when picking things off a shelf or the like. Often, there's strutting, striding, aggressive body language overall. Sometimes they complain to people around them (in line, say) about slowness or other side effects of store/staff compliance.
Now, clearly, some noncompliant people do none of those things, and many who do them don't do all of them. Like I said, I'm stereotyping. Those who do none of the above things, but are mask non-compliant, seem the most likely to be people with health issues with masks, speaking subjectively.
While I recognize that those "confused" or "defiant" people, too, could also have breathing-related health conditions or serious problematic psychological ones that limit mask compliance . . . I still feel pretty justified in being irritated with them, especially the "defiant" group. (Sometimes clueless people truly can't help it. I know this. One of my personal character flaws is feeling irritated with them anyway, even in situations beyond this one.)
No, I don't yell at them or try to change their behavior. I just try to stay out of their way.
Again, to the post I used to start off this riff/rant: You would fit neither pattern, because you would be doing all the other stuff, like keeping distance. Bless you: You are doing everything you are personally, humanly are able to do. I hope - I think- I would assume you have a health issue, with that behavior pattern.11 -
@MikePfirrman Experience will have to be their teacher. Then they can go on TV after the fact and tell everyone this is real y'all. This is real. I should've listened. You should listen. By the time the vac is here it may have mutated so many times beyond it. Rope-A-Dope wears you out until there's a Total TKO.
Cases are climbing here due to pesky tourists. Not a mask in sight. The summer heat hasn't done a thing to stop it.7 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
I can't say I'm actually afraid when I say this, and I'm definitely not "living in fear" , just IMO taking some sensible precautions.
I think that if (or when) I get it, there's a decent chance I'll die. I'm over 60, and I have COPD. A simple cold often becomes several weeks of a persistent cough, and sometimes bronchitis or pneumonia.
So, yes, you're right: When I'm dead, I'll stop thinking about the potential for catching it, and will cease all precautionary measures.
Heck, I'll stop thinking about the potential as soon as I test positive . . . but then the precautionary measures become even more vital, to protect other people, y'know?
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AnnPT77
It's not your time to goooo. You shall live, live, live and keep on sharing and declaring your wisdom. 13 -
@AnnPT77 - I know your rowing times. I think you're healthier than most 30 year olds. But I do completely understand 100% what you're saying. My wife is immunocompromised (Fibro). There's been a theory that women with Fibro have a T-Cell imbalance that makes it more unlikely they will get seriously ill from Covid-19 and it's being tested right now. Does that make me feel better? Absolutely not.11
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corinasue1143 wrote: »
That's terrible. Truly sobering. Heartbreaking.
Back on @moonangel12's comment re: handling family members, it's hard on families with littles but it's also hard with college age kids who are legal adults and drive themselves around to meet friends. When colleges closed and sent kids home, all 3 of our adult kids locked down with us. I agree it was a lot simpler then with less to do. Two have moved into their apartments for next year, and we are on outside visit status with them. It's hard, especially in the heat. We have a pico-projector and outside screen but no one really seems to have the energy for that. One is still with us until mid-August and it is a continual conversation, as more bad news about our area lands every day. Swirl protests they really care about into the mix. It's hard to know the right thing to do for every single encounter. I have 4 octogenarians in town for whom I'm the first call in an emergency (parents, step-parents), and we do outside visits with them, too. DH and I turned down 2 outside gatherings with friends we really wanted to do just because it didn't seem smart as the date neared (likely to be crowded even though outside).10 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
I can't say I'm actually afraid when I say this, and I'm definitely not "living in fear" , just IMO taking some sensible precautions.
I think that if (or when) I get it, there's a decent chance I'll die. I'm over 60, and I have COPD. A simple cold often becomes several weeks of a persistent cough, and sometimes bronchitis or pneumonia.
So, yes, you're right: When I'm dead, I'll stop thinking about the potential for catching it, and will cease all precautionary measures.
Heck, I'll stop thinking about the potential as soon as I test positive . . . but then the precautionary measures become even more vital, to protect other people, y'know?
I'd like to thank you for acknowledging the bit that I would characterize as "gallows humor" that we definitely stop worrying when we die.
I'm leaning a lot more towards anti-mask these days. Or at least I'm skeptical. Don't get me wrong - I wear them if there's a sign on the door of the establishment I'd like to enter. Over both my mouth and nose, too - and without all the handling of the business portions of the mask that are so common. What I'm not doing is wearing them at work - even though not all my co-workers are any good at distancing. The supervisors, who are required to wear masks, but evidently not required to wear them correctly, tend to move the masks away from their mouths and noses to speak at you from 2 feet away... I am definitely against wearing the stupid things as any "virtue signal" to indicate that I care about keeping others safe. At least until the studies begin to suggest that a mask DOES keep anyone safe - since the existing studies don't support the hypothesis. I'm also not going a lot of places. Of course, that's not a change from "before" anyway.
Let's acknowledge, though - And I think it's great that NZ is containing (or was) the very few cases they had. But that approach is a much slower path to herd immunity than the US. Such as herd immunity may even exist. And that would be my point. The LONGER we hide under our beds and wash all the skin from our hands and live without social contact of any kind, the LONGER WE MUST continue to live that way.
I fully support everyone's intentions to keep others safe. I understand why we're not being *allowed* to perform our own risk assessment. I'm not going to shame anyone for wearing or not wearing a mask. I cannot help my feelings towards the people who wear the masks on their chins or below their noses, or who spend the entire time masked *groping* the dirty part of their mask. I manage to keep my opinions to myself most of the time, and when I simply can't keep it all to myself, so far, venting to my husband has been enough.
His workplace has offered an antibody study, so he's been tested for antibodies. Negative. We were half hoping to have already passed through asymptomatically, like 20-50% of total cases. We joke that now it's time to go lick a Covid patient. Of course EVERYONE would prefer to get through this without contracting the virus. Realistically, it's not going to play out that way. And the older you get before you catch it, the worse your odds of surviving, right?
Again, I know a lot of people are expecting that vaccine, the one without the FDA oversight, to solve everything. Just like the flu vaccine has wiped out the flu, right?
My point? Did I have one? Oh, yeah - still the thing that wearing masks and slowing things down prolongs, rather than causing the timeline to shorten.
I'm not trying to be an *kitten*. (You can feel free to think that I am an *kitten* anyway - it's no skin off my nose.) I'm not trying to catch a disease, or spread one. I'm not in contact with anyone but co-workers, and I'm only going to feel bad if I manage to infect (asymptomatically) one of the few people who are still wearing masks properly, throughout the whole ordeal. I can only honestly think of that ONE guy. He thanked me today, again, for the home-made ones I gave him. The rest of them aren't even trying, anyway. And the workplace has had an infection. It's been weeks, and I haven't heard if he's recovering or dead, yet.
Sorry for the ramble. Anyone who said TLDR probably never got this far, anyway.8 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
That statement is so WRONG and callous, that if I answer it the way is supposed to be, I will be banned for life from MFP.
Please do yourself a favor and read and try to understand the science behind the behavior of this virus and forget about the idiotic things that are coming from the mouth of people without intelligence and common sense. This virus KILLS, so maybe you are thinking that if everybody is dead, then of course the virus will not have a host to invade and it will disappear. Nice thinking dude!
The only way to have herd immunity, is to have a very effective vaccine. Even if you survive the infection of COVID 19, without a sequel, that immunity is very short lived. And some people that manage to survive the infection may be dealing with bad side effects for long time. Do you think that Nick Cordero, will ever be the same person as he was before, regardless of his possible immunity?
Here is a link for you that explains the very short-lived immunity that some people (the ones that survived…) may benefit from. Please stay safe! However, if you would like to "stop living in fear," go to volunteer to any hospital treating COVID-19 patients.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid-19-antibodies-fade-months-study/story?id=7140678719 -
autumnblade75 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »I am also seeing here (in Italy) advertising on TV for products, especially foods, have people wearing masks. Since there is the famous "herd mentality" then the more people that wear them--the more people will wear them. As I've mentioned our numbers keep going down. There are a few clusters, that are quickly isolated, with the majority of cases still in the North.
I am saddened by all your reports from the States. This means that you'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus much longer. I'll be leaving soon for the summer, and will report in in September. I hope to hear that the situation in the States has gotten better.
I disagree with you that we'll have to live with the fear of catching the virus longer if we don't wear masks and practice social distancing. It will all be over quicker once we've all spread the germ as far as possible. Flattening the curve was only supposed to keep us all from getting sick at once and overwhelming the health care system. I suppose it's possible that we could still have spikes that might overwhelm the system, but Even Then, the faster everyone catches it, the sooner we can stop living in fear of catching it.
I can't say I'm actually afraid when I say this, and I'm definitely not "living in fear" , just IMO taking some sensible precautions.
I think that if (or when) I get it, there's a decent chance I'll die. I'm over 60, and I have COPD. A simple cold often becomes several weeks of a persistent cough, and sometimes bronchitis or pneumonia.
So, yes, you're right: When I'm dead, I'll stop thinking about the potential for catching it, and will cease all precautionary measures.
Heck, I'll stop thinking about the potential as soon as I test positive . . . but then the precautionary measures become even more vital, to protect other people, y'know?
I missed the phrase that you're responding too, and wanted to second this. I'm not "living in fear" either and I find the people who insist that masks and social-distancing are all about being afraid terribly condescending. I've done a lot of research, listened to lots of health professionals I know personally and online, and have made an informed decision to put up with the inconveniences in order to protect myself and others.
I didn't decide not to smoke because I'm scared, I don't buckle up because I'm scared, I don't stop at red lights and stay in my lane because I've been scared into subservience. I do those things as well as wear a mask because I've decided it's the smart thing to do.
I just got spammed on a FB post by someone in all caps with lots of sheep emojis lecturing me that masks destroy your lungs and covid is a gov't conspiracy to break my will so I might be a little touchy right now
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moonangel12 wrote: »How are you all handling differing opinions and actions amongst family and close friends? In the beginning it was easier when everyone was hyper aware and states were closed down. Now that things are opening up so many people just want normal again. I mean, I crave normalcy, but I also recognize it’s too soon.
My only living family member is my 81 year old father, and fortunately he is a man of science so he understands his risk. He is somewhat housebound anyway. I used to take him out shopping once a week, that stopped in mid-March. Now I do his shopping for him. I have managed to convince him to place one grocery order with me a week to limit my community exposure. One store. No, you're just going to have to go without that breakfast cereal that only Metro sells because it's a cramped little place and I don't want to set foot in there.
I've lost a friend of 30+ years over this. He was already a bit of a conspiracy theory guy and had been laid off from work for a couple of months when the pandemic came along. Apparently he had spent all his free time on some very dark sites, started spouting "it's no worse than the flu" stuff along with Bill Gates is going to microchip us all with the coronavirus vaccine and the tests have an 80% false positive rate and the death rates are all being inflated, etc. It's that global elite masterminding the pandemic and the downfall of the economy. When I tried to send him information to refute his claims, in return I got two-hour videos with "medical professionals" of dubious authenticity. My information was discounted every time because the institution that the scientist is affiliated with once got money from that person or organization therefore they have a vested interest in supporting those evil global elite folks. It's all very comic bookish to me. Eventually I got a very hostile email saying some quite vile things and I ended contact at that point.
The rest of my friends are much more sensible, thankfully.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »Washington state where I live has gone to mandatory masks when in public with up to $1000 fine for non-compliance. It goes into effect Friday. I don't know how stringent that fine will be, but with cameras in every location, it's not going to be hard to prove. Still not required if outdoors and able to give six feet distance. Whew. I can still walk in my quiet neighborhood without a mask. I guess I'll have to take one now, just in case.
Just wear the dang masks. Geez. I'm glad there are now $$$ teeth in this though. Up till now it's been, "Please wear them, we trust you to be a good person."
Now? Shut up or pay up.
Tucson and Phoenix have done the same, but as we speak there's an "anti-mask" rally going on in Phoenix (Scottsdale). On social media, at least they are getting brutalized. I'm sorry, but that's just not too bright of folks right there.
All I can say is I'm glad I live in semi-bubble community and work from home. People won't comply with masks until they know someone in their family in the ICU being told they might not make it. I wish that it would simply be Darwinism but others are put at risk for the "liberties" of the selfish.
Not so sure about that. I read this week in the news on line of a person refusing to wear a mask, even when he had lost family members to the virus. I didn't open the article because I found that statement so atrocious that I didn't want to get more upset reading his reasons. Some people are so narrow minded that nothing gets thru to them; not even the death of a love one.9
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