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  • Theoldguy1Theoldguy1 Member Posts: 1,947 Member Member Posts: 1,947 Member
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?
  • cwolfman13cwolfman13 Member Posts: 39,404 Member Member Posts: 39,404 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    This was kinda my question too...you'd basically have to institute a police state and declare Marshall Law.
  • RedordeadheadRedordeadhead Member Posts: 972 Member Member Posts: 972 Member
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I don't know of anywhere in the US where these things are actual laws...as in ordinances on the books. It wouldn't fly and would be a violation of the constitution and the bill of rights. Curfews and such are enforceable as are gatherings in public, etc...but not on your own personal, private property. Don't have enough police anyway to be going around checking houses to make sure no more than X number of people were there...and if they did, all hell would break loose.

    That may be true in the US, I don't know all the rules there. However in some countries outside the US there are laws on private gatherings, and the post you quoted mentions 'other countries' so perhaps this was meant.
  • FuzzipegFuzzipeg Member Posts: 2,104 Member Member Posts: 2,104 Member
    Being an Island is not helping the UK. We are expecting to go into another lock down. We were put on notice this morning for a Monday announcement by the media, by midday ish we were advised we were to have the Prime Minister address at 4-00 pm, then it was 5-00 now its sometime........................

    I should have said, the address is for England and the English put on notice. Those in Northern areas, Manchester/Lancashire, Liverpool, Bradford and best part of Yorkshire and the North East have been in local lockdowns/restrictions for area specific durations in some its months.

    Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have made earlier changes and done things their own ways. Making considered announcements without undue leeks.
    edited October 2020
  • Gisel2015Gisel2015 Member Posts: 3,942 Member Member Posts: 3,942 Member
    Since many of you are planning to get together with family and friends during the holidays, I though that this health information would be helpful. Be safe!

    Household spread of Covid-19 is common and quick, a new CDC study finds
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/30/health/household-spread-covid-19-wellness/index.html
  • TonyB0588TonyB0588 Member Posts: 9,521 Member Member Posts: 9,521 Member
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,584 Member Member Posts: 6,584 Member
    Yes, agreed Tony.

    When we were in lockdown, measures like numbers at home for gatherings were indeed enforceable.

    None of this 'Only guidelines and we hope for voluntary co operation' stuff.

    I guess we tend to not own as many guns as some countries, mostly it's only people with big cattle properties or people in gun clubs otherwise it is pretty rare so the law isn't so worried about telling us the law and most sensible people here do listen to what we are advised. We've only had 6 deaths since this all started in my state.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,584 Member Member Posts: 6,584 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.

    More or less, yes, the concept exists.

    USA/Michigan, governor tried to do pretty much that, got sued by the Legislature (controlled by opposing political party); state supreme court ruled she'd exceeded her authority; US President Twitter-scolded her for over-reaching and repeatedly criticized her at his rallies; group of a dozen or so dudes plotted to kidnap her, put her on trial and possibly execute her for treason (or leave her on a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan, depending on which conspirator's plan won out), but were found out when they tried to acquire explosives to blow up a bridge as a distraction - some of them are now out on bail after being charged.

    The above is not a political opinion. It's a set of facts, fairly neutrally stated. I don't have to make stuff up.

    I know how hard so many in the USA are working right now. I have friends there working to do many peoples jobs so they are stressed through the roof and it's because of the pandemic. I get why some are not coping. I wish this would all go away but I always have hope. They will sort out the vaccine soon. Totally believe it.
  • Gisel2015Gisel2015 Member Posts: 3,942 Member Member Posts: 3,942 Member

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense. [/quote]

    This is what I found on line. My impression, and based on all the discord that these actions bring on, if they apply to personal liberties, is that they are not very effective or really followed. The only one that I know that works is when a state declares a state of emergency due to acts of God or fires. Meaning that the state needs $$$ and federal help.

    https://www.the-sun.com/news/535328/what-is-a-state-of-emergency-in-the-us-and-what-happens-when-one-is-declared/

    The link below shows the state of emergency in all the 50 states. All declarations are still active. But if you follow the news, you will notice that people don't care and the government do not impose them.

    https://www.nga.org/state-covid-19-emergency-orders/
  • TonyB0588TonyB0588 Member Posts: 9,521 Member Member Posts: 9,521 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.

    More or less, yes, the concept exists.

    USA/Michigan, governor tried to do pretty much that, got sued by the Legislature (controlled by opposing political party); state supreme court ruled she'd exceeded her authority; US President Twitter-scolded her for over-reaching and repeatedly criticized her at his rallies; group of a dozen or so dudes plotted to kidnap her, put her on trial and possibly execute her for treason (or leave her on a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan, depending on which conspirator's plan won out), but were found out when they tried to acquire explosives to blow up a bridge as a distraction - some of them are now out on bail after being charged.

    The above is not a political opinion. It's a set of facts, fairly neutrally stated. I don't have to make stuff up.

    Yes, I understand what you mean by "not a political opinion". I'm not going to express an opinion either.
  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,584 Member Member Posts: 6,584 Member
    mockchoc wrote: »
    Yes, agreed Tony.

    When we were in lockdown, measures like numbers at home for gatherings were indeed enforceable.

    None of this 'Only guidelines and we hope for voluntary co operation' stuff.

    I guess we tend to not own as many guns as some countries, mostly it's only people with big cattle properties or people in gun clubs otherwise it is pretty rare so the law isn't so worried about telling us the law and most sensible people here do listen to what we are advised. We've only had 6 deaths since this all started in my state.

    yes exactly.

    Here in Australia these things were not voluntary guidelines, they were enforcable laws.

    and sure, police didnt randomly knock on a door and count if you had 11 people rather than 10 - but they certainly would of investigated obviously large gatherings.

    and they can and did check people who were in mandatory self isolation were self isolating.

    when the state borders were closed, my friend got an exemption to visit NSW on compassionate grounds - when he returned to SA he had to do 14 days self isolation.

    Police came to his house at random times to check he was indeed there and nobody else was with him.

    I think we managed all that without being a police state under marshall law.

    South Australia - total deaths: 4
    No community transmission for months now.

    My city has never had community transmission. Brisbane has though but that is far away. I'm terrified of it so check every day. Every shop has hand sanitiser as you enter and wipes for shopping trollies. I see many not using it but hell yes I will every time. No real need for masks though so it's rare to see. If we have an outbreak I'm ready though.
  • paperpuddingpaperpudding Member Posts: 6,854 Member Member Posts: 6,854 Member
    mockchoc my own town (pop 23,000) has never had community transmission either - we had total of 6 cases ,all returnees from overseas, back in April

    To their credit, those 6 people (3 separate couples from unrelated overseas trips) self isolated properly, all were mild cases and recovered at home and it went no further.

    I am 350 km west of Adelaide.

  • mockchocmockchoc Member Posts: 6,584 Member Member Posts: 6,584 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    TonyB0588 wrote: »
    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    jenilla1 wrote: »
    Theoldguy1 wrote: »
    Gotta love California. Our new guideline to get us through the holidays. Ha

    88ogbro67wco.png

    Sorry had to Google since I thought it was internet BS.

    So what is done if someone waves a middle finger at one or all of the guidelines?

    Nothing. It's not enforceable. They're just hoping that people will see the guidelines and be more thoughtful and cautious this season. Maybe try to adhere somewhat to it. Better than putting out no guidance at all and people just think it's business as usual.
    How do you think that? Scofflaw?

    Not enforceable law...there is no legislation and no statute. There is nothing for law enforcement to remotely hang their hat on by trying to enforce any of those things. They are guidelines and the best that can be hoped for is voluntary compliance. The government can't regulate whether or not you have family or friends over to your personal property in any number outside of noise ordinances and such...but even then, law enforcement would be walking a very fine line.

    I've talked to some law enforcement as we have county sheriffs doing security at my office...they can't do anything...it's none of their business whether someone has granny and auntie and their cousins over to their own personal property for a BBQ...they don't have a legal leg to stand on trying to do that.

    Different countries, different laws I guess. During the initial reopening after the lockdown earlier this year, we were told we couldn't have more than 3 persons come to the house who were not part of the same household. So it was okay to be a husband and wife with 8 children living there, which makes 10, but us as a family of 3 could only have a maximum of 3 visitors to our house which makes 6, although 6 is less than the big family of 10. And it was enforceable, just as the curfew before it was enforced.

    I'm in the US, curious how this enforced? I mean curfew I can understand if someone is out past the curfew time the police can stop. How are activities in private homes monitored?

    Very similar to activities in a club or a bar or restaurant. We've had a few prosecutions for exceeding the allowed numbers in clubs, lack of distancing in bars, and failure to enforce mask-wearing in restaurants.

    No one is going to go around knocking on doors to check every house, but if there are 10 cars parked at my property, something is worth investigating.

    Does the concept of a "State of Emergency" exist in American law? A provision where emergency powers can be triggered to allow for the authorities to take certain enforcement actions that wouldn't be normal if the emergency didn't exist? Many countries around the world have declared the COVID19 crisis as an emergency in that sense.

    More or less, yes, the concept exists.

    USA/Michigan, governor tried to do pretty much that, got sued by the Legislature (controlled by opposing political party); state supreme court ruled she'd exceeded her authority; US President Twitter-scolded her for over-reaching and repeatedly criticized her at his rallies; group of a dozen or so dudes plotted to kidnap her, put her on trial and possibly execute her for treason (or leave her on a boat in the middle of Lake Michigan, depending on which conspirator's plan won out), but were found out when they tried to acquire explosives to blow up a bridge as a distraction - some of them are now out on bail after being charged.

    The above is not a political opinion. It's a set of facts, fairly neutrally stated. I don't have to make stuff up.

    Yes, I understand what you mean by "not a political opinion". I'm not going to express an opinion either.

    My political opinion is that things here, now, are totally f'n surreal, nuts, improbable, dysfunctional, in a huge variety of ways. I don't have to make stuff up, and anyway I don't have a sufficiently expansive imagination that I could out-do what reality is actually delivering here day to day. 🙄😬

    That's still not a *partisan* political opinion, as far as I know. I have those, but we're supposed to avoid discussing them in the MFP forums. (And I avoid discussing them in real life, mostly, too, because generally Nothing Good results.)

    Wish I could express mine lol. I won't. It's obvious already anyway.
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