Coronavirus prep
Replies
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Went to Costco yesterday... NYC. No paper towels or baby wipes. Plenty of toilet paper. Out of pecans but I suspect that's for the holidays. I had to get Praline pecans as a substitute.4
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rheddmobile wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »From what I read, the vaccine will not be a walk in the park as far as side effects go. Yes it will be much better than catching covid itself, but it's not one of those shots where you can just bounce back to work right away.
well if it is the same as the shingles than I can handle it. If it's better than all good. Those shingles series shots were pretty awful. Most likely everyone will react in their own individual way. I haven't heard a lot of horror stories floated yet from the folks testing it. Have you?
I have no source but from hearing on the news from trial participants... the side effects are like having covid full blown for a week. Which I guess is better than covid for months and months, but still that could deter some from taking the vaccine.
With respect it’s not much like having full blown Covid at all. Sometimes a high fever, aches, etc. but no one is on a ventilator in the hospital as a result of the vaccine.
That's not what I meant. I meant the shot was not a walk in the park like some vaccines. Of course a vaccine is not going to put you on a ventilator. 🤦♀️6 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »From what I read, the vaccine will not be a walk in the park as far as side effects go. Yes it will be much better than catching covid itself, but it's not one of those shots where you can just bounce back to work right away.
well if it is the same as the shingles than I can handle it. If it's better than all good. Those shingles series shots were pretty awful. Most likely everyone will react in their own individual way. I haven't heard a lot of horror stories floated yet from the folks testing it. Have you?
I have no source but from hearing on the news from trial participants... the side effects are like having covid full blown for a week. Which I guess is better than covid for months and months, but still that could deter some from taking the vaccine.
With respect it’s not much like having full blown Covid at all. Sometimes a high fever, aches, etc. but no one is on a ventilator in the hospital as a result of the vaccine.
That's not what I meant. I meant the shot was not a walk in the park like some vaccines. Of course a vaccine is not going to put you on a ventilator. 🤦♀️
I think the specific statement being challenged here is "the side effects are like having covid full blown for a week."
What one thinks a "full blown" case is will vary by perspective, but the consequences that are most serious seem to be difficulty breathing and vascular damage.
To clarify, this is what is currently being reported for the apparently successful vaccines:
Participants in Moderna and Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine trials told CNBC in September that they were experiencing high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. While the symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day, sometimes sooner, and that it was better than getting Covid-19.
Both companies acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/covid-vaccine-cdc-should-warn-people-the-side-effects-from-shots-wont-be-walk-in-the-park-.html
Unless "other symptoms" is doing some heavy lifting here, it doesn't sound now like the side effects include difficulty breathing.15 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I literally had someone on Facebook tell me that I'm the reason that we have to have these restrictions and that I'm selfish and generally terrible for suggesting that I'm not going to let fear of Covid change my Thanksgiving plans. Even when told about my sister he still doubled down insisting that the only acceptable way of celebrating is to not do so. This was a person I know in "real life" and had considered a friend for 2 decades now...the judgment is just mindboggling to me and I don't really understand why in general we can't just practice a little love and tolerance for each other.
I will also add that even just limiting to "immediate" family we are not a small group. My younger sister who lives out of town was supposed to come in (as she'd like to spend as much time as possible with our older sister as possible just in case) but my grandmother who lives with her hasn't been feeling well lately and doesn't want to drive 8 hours here and then 8 hours back on such a tight turn around. Hopefully they will be able to come for Christmas as the timeframe can be a little longer. But even without that group of 5 we are still 10+ people. I've never really understood the thought that 9 people would be ok but 11 would not. We should just ask people to use their best judgment and hope for the best, while keeping in mind that we are never guaranteed tomorrow.
That's terrible, the thing you report on Facebook. It's so easy for people to react in a kneejerk way on FB (or the like), in ways they might not in person, and it's hurtful. Every situation is different, and extreme reactions (especially when people don't know the nuances) are not a good reflex.
I don't do FB (I have a profile that hasn't been updated in years and almost never go on), but from what people I know have reported, the judgment comes from all sides and it's generally terrible, not specifically about covid, but covid is not helping. A friend has a close relative who is super anti-mask conspiracy theory and constantly judging others for being (as someone else noted) weak or "sheeple" to the point she sees him differently than she did before and had to mute it. I know many others who report similar stuff.
My own experience with this has been NextDoor, although currently I read it only for coyote and deer sighting posts and photos (I live in a city, and although we've always had coyotes they've taken over the site like crazy lately; the deer pretty much live in cemeteries). Ever since March, however, it's been endless fights and judgy-ness (on both sides) about masks to the extent that it was making me upset and paranoid. (I am pro mask, but I also find it difficult to run in a mask and tend to choose times when few are out and I can easily social distance, and I do actively change direction, cross the street, move into the street as needed, but apparently some have had such bad experiences with runners not doing that that they are inclined to judge all, or to proclaim such things are not sufficient. I still think the anti maskers and those being incredibly irresponsible (as with the huge house parties) are worse -- and yes, now I'm judging too -- but I get the feeling that one is being judged no matter what and that some are enjoying that, even.)
For whatever reason, NextDoor asked me to be a moderator locally. I have no idea why. I'm not particularly cool headed or reasonable at times. I have pleaded with people to be nicer. Not working. They are at each others throats. For every two level headed people, there are two extremes. Sad really.
One lady this morning was calling out a particular clerk at the local Post Office. I'm thinking, do we really need to do that?? Yes, someone at the post office should be wearing a mask, but to call them out on NextDoor by name? And when someone points out that NextDoor is about neighbors and after all the division we are still all neighbors, heaven forbid. Then the thread deteriorates to the extreme. I'm trying to figure out how not to be a moderator any longer.
NextDoor is toxic. A couple of years ago, I signed up to find the owner of a lost dog that wandered into my yard. It worked perfectly and the owner was located in just a couple of hours. I thought wow this is great! I can really keep up with what's going on around here.
Sadly, over time I noticed civility breaking down. It got so bad that I started having not so nice feelings about my neighbors and neighborhood. So I quit the site well over a year ago.
I can only imagine how crazed it's gotten on NextDoor with the election and Covid going on. I don't even want to know. I prefer to think the best of the people around me. I don't need to see their dark sides. Especially now.
IMO, that site is more harmful to communities than it is helpful.
I know, I mostly stay off of it, but I advertise on it. I have a side business of being a solar broker. That's the main reason (I suspect) they asked me to be a moderator. And I'm likely less opinionated and more PC on there than on here, at times. I sometimes get a kick out of it. There's one moderator -- if you've ever seen the one Geico commercial, "I see you've met Cynthia" with the overzealous HOA committee lady -- I think I've met her. She flags like 10 things a day. I just picture her combing through the threads looking for anything to try to flag. Then the rest of us have to vote on whether to remove. I read these flags and I'm like, "she flagged that???".4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »Chef_Barbell wrote: »From what I read, the vaccine will not be a walk in the park as far as side effects go. Yes it will be much better than catching covid itself, but it's not one of those shots where you can just bounce back to work right away.
well if it is the same as the shingles than I can handle it. If it's better than all good. Those shingles series shots were pretty awful. Most likely everyone will react in their own individual way. I haven't heard a lot of horror stories floated yet from the folks testing it. Have you?
I have no source but from hearing on the news from trial participants... the side effects are like having covid full blown for a week. Which I guess is better than covid for months and months, but still that could deter some from taking the vaccine.
With respect it’s not much like having full blown Covid at all. Sometimes a high fever, aches, etc. but no one is on a ventilator in the hospital as a result of the vaccine.
That's not what I meant. I meant the shot was not a walk in the park like some vaccines. Of course a vaccine is not going to put you on a ventilator. 🤦♀️
I think the specific statement being challenged here is "the side effects are like having covid full blown for a week."
What one thinks a "full blown" case is will vary by perspective, but the consequences that are most serious seem to be difficulty breathing and vascular damage.
To clarify, this is what is currently being reported for the apparently successful vaccines:
Participants in Moderna and Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine trials told CNBC in September that they were experiencing high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. While the symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day, sometimes sooner, and that it was better than getting Covid-19.
Both companies acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/covid-vaccine-cdc-should-warn-people-the-side-effects-from-shots-wont-be-walk-in-the-park-.html
Unless "other symptoms" is doing some heavy lifting here, it doesn't sound now like the side effects include difficulty breathing.
That makes sense. And yes all of it is better than getting covid. My hubby had it in March and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).3 -
With the vaccination distribution priorities in the EU I think Covid 19 disease won’t be enough of a problem for me to bother about by the time I’m in line for it. 😄4
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janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
And with fewer people getting it, there would be even less need for people using ventilators. I think most reasonable people would agree that not getting an illness is even better than getting an illness with a serious risk of complications, even if we are getting better at treating the complications.
As far as your assertion that the majority of people will not want a vaccination, I hope you're wrong. I'm not sure who you think is arguing that everything will be exactly the same if there is a vaccine. The argument is that we might need to practice some precautions in addition to a vaccine, not that we will get a vaccine and everything will stay exactly the same as it is now.
If someone refuses to get vaccinated unless they receive a guarantee that the world will return exactly to its pre-pandemic state, that's amazingly selfish and short-sighted thinking. This event has had serious human, social, political, and economic consequences. In the US alone, 250,000 people are dead. No vaccine can magically undo that type of harm or make the world as if it never happened. What we can do is have a safer and more stable world than we would have without a vaccine. Those are the choices. Anyone insisting that a promise of a return to a pre-vaccine world is the cost of their agreement to get vaccinated is like a toddler throwing a fit because their banana broke and it can't be put back together.21 -
If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
The idea is that initially only a few will get the vaccine, so they need to still take precautions to protect others. If all goes well, and eventually many more get the vaccine such that covid-19 is much less of a problem and the most vulnerable have mostly gotten it, that would no longer necessarily be the case.
Anyway, if you don't want the vaccine, those of us who do want it get it sooner, so yay, although it's still going to be a while for us in the non high risk group/non health care workers anyway.
I continue to be amazed by the idea that mask wearing is so dreadful that life can't be normal if we wear masks for somewhat longer, oh the horror, but oh well.23 -
COVID update--here in Rome, emergency rooms are so full that people are being stabilized in ambulances waiting in line to be admitted, for days.21
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Mask wearing is uncomfortable at best for the majority of people - how people who have to wear one all the time because they work outside the house do it I have no idea - especially those who have physical jobs. We do it, but I doubt anyone loves it or really wants to continue to do so indefinitely. Not to mention that it's not just mask wearing that we will have to continue to do - it's social distance as well. Apparently social distancing isn't going to go anywhere for awhile as well. Let's look at this holiday season - we are being told to social distance and avoid large crowds (though I don't personally see 10+ as a crowd that's the limit in alot of places, 25 in others, and it can vary) so that we can gather next year. Except no one is pointing out that if in a year we are STILL social distancing then we can hardly gather for those weddings, festivals, birthdays, graduations, funerals, and holidays that we are supposed to be skipping for the greater good can we? If a vaccine isn't the go back to life as usual that it was sold as in the first place (there certainly has not been any talk about having to maintain masks and social distancing after a vaccine until this week here in the US or at least the state I'm in) then yes people won't want to get it. You can hate that all you want, but for a large percentage of the population the constantly changing recommendations and restrictions coupled with the fact that this is a disease with a VERY high survival rate have made this an issue with a large divide between the sides.4
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Mask wearing is uncomfortable at best for the majority of people - how people who have to wear one all the time because they work outside the house do it I have no idea - especially those who have physical jobs. We do it, but I doubt anyone loves it or really wants to continue to do so indefinitely. Not to mention that it's not just mask wearing that we will have to continue to do - it's social distance as well. Apparently social distancing isn't going to go anywhere for awhile as well. Let's look at this holiday season - we are being told to social distance and avoid large crowds (though I don't personally see 10+ as a crowd that's the limit in alot of places, 25 in others, and it can vary) so that we can gather next year. Except no one is pointing out that if in a year we are STILL social distancing then we can hardly gather for those weddings, festivals, birthdays, graduations, funerals, and holidays that we are supposed to be skipping for the greater good can we? If a vaccine isn't the go back to life as usual that it was sold as in the first place (there certainly has not been any talk about having to maintain masks and social distancing after a vaccine until this week here in the US or at least the state I'm in) then yes people won't want to get it. You can hate that all you want, but for a large percentage of the population the constantly changing recommendations and restrictions coupled with the fact that this is a disease with a VERY high survival rate have made this an issue with a large divide between the sides.
I think you still don't understand the point: when people talk about how we will still want to wear masks and social distance after the release of the vaccination, they're referring to how it will take time to produce and distribute enough of the vaccine for a sufficient number of people to get it. They're not saying that we'll distribute an effective vaccine and we'll all need to keep wearing masks for no reason.
We're talking about the period between the release of the vaccine and enough people getting it. It will be important that we don't conclude "Well, Covid is over" just because a vaccine is technically available, but a big chunk of the population still has no protection.
Of course, if enough people decide that this is a "two sides" issue and decide to avoid getting vaccinated due to ideological reasons or a refusal to try to understand the nature of the situation, you're right . . . things may never get back to any semblance of normal. That will be because Americans have refused to receive an effective vaccine.
Adults do all kinds of things they don't "love" because they're either the responsible thing to do or the most intelligent choice to avoid negative consequences. It's utterly irrelevant whether or not someone "loves" wearing a mask. I can't express how little I care about how an individual doesn't love wearing a mask. I dislike it myself. So what? Nowhere were we promised that life would include only doing the things that we love.
These people who will refuse to get the vaccine if they can't get a promise that mask wearing and distancing will immediately vanish, before we even get a chance to get the vaccine to a meaningful percentage of people, what is their alternative? Forget the vaccine and just wait? Wait for what, exactly? Or is the idea that we'll just go back to normal life without a vaccine and let the bodies fall where they may?35 -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/11/23/texas-birthday-party-covid19-video/
An interesting article about the results from a small family gathering in Texas in very early November. Will we be seeing similar results, on a larger scale, from gatherings tomorrow?
This is what the experts are so concerned about.11 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Mask wearing is uncomfortable at best for the majority of people - how people who have to wear one all the time because they work outside the house do it I have no idea - especially those who have physical jobs. We do it, but I doubt anyone loves it or really wants to continue to do so indefinitely. Not to mention that it's not just mask wearing that we will have to continue to do - it's social distance as well. Apparently social distancing isn't going to go anywhere for awhile as well. Let's look at this holiday season - we are being told to social distance and avoid large crowds (though I don't personally see 10+ as a crowd that's the limit in alot of places, 25 in others, and it can vary) so that we can gather next year. Except no one is pointing out that if in a year we are STILL social distancing then we can hardly gather for those weddings, festivals, birthdays, graduations, funerals, and holidays that we are supposed to be skipping for the greater good can we? If a vaccine isn't the go back to life as usual that it was sold as in the first place (there certainly has not been any talk about having to maintain masks and social distancing after a vaccine until this week here in the US or at least the state I'm in) then yes people won't want to get it. You can hate that all you want, but for a large percentage of the population the constantly changing recommendations and restrictions coupled with the fact that this is a disease with a VERY high survival rate have made this an issue with a large divide between the sides.
I think you still don't understand the point: when people talk about how we will still want to wear masks and social distance after the release of the vaccination, they're referring to how it will take time to produce and distribute enough of the vaccine for a sufficient number of people to get it. They're not saying that we'll distribute an effective vaccine and we'll all need to keep wearing masks for no reason.
We're talking about the period between the release of the vaccine and enough people getting it. It will be important that we don't conclude "Well, Covid is over" just because a vaccine is technically available, but a big chunk of the population still has no protection.
Of course, if enough people decide that this is a "two sides" issue and decide to avoid getting vaccinated due to ideological reasons or a refusal to try to understand the nature of the situation, you're right . . . things may never get back to any semblance of normal. That will be because Americans have refused to receive an effective vaccine.
Adults do all kinds of things they don't "love" because they're either the responsible thing to do or the most intelligent choice to avoid negative consequences. It's utterly irrelevant whether or not someone "loves" wearing a mask. I can't express how little I care about how an individual doesn't love wearing a mask. I dislike it myself. So what? Nowhere were we promised that life would include only doing the things that we love.
These people who will refuse to get the vaccine if they can't get a promise that mask wearing and distancing will immediately vanish, before we even get a chance to get the vaccine to a meaningful percentage of people, what is their alternative? Forget the vaccine and just wait? Wait for what, exactly? Or is the idea that we'll just go back to normal life without a vaccine and let the bodies fall where they may?
Thank you. That's what I was trying to say. I especially appreciate your final paragraph.15 -
Hubby just texted me about how he snagged the last bag of pecans at the local grocery store! Thanksgiving is saved! :laugh: Sometimes it's the little things that help get through so much tough.18
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janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
According to Worldometer, it's been like 2% dying, so much, much higher than .03%. But I would imagine, in reality, the numbers are more like 1%, since many with mild symptoms don't get tested or are asymptomatic.
In reality, we won't know for sure what percentage it is until it's said and done. But as it stands, we are on track to lose well over 400K lives, perhaps much more.
And again, for every one that gets it and dies, 10 have significant longer term health issues.20 -
I was looking thru the posts here and it seems like we know so little about this virus even after a year.
One thing that bothers me is folks saying that the vaccine will GIVE you the virus so you will be contagious, I don't think that is the way it works. You might feel a little ill for 24-48 hrs - which is how the shingles shot effected me, but I don't think I was contagious for shingles after I had the shot. Just as I don't think the flu shot gives you the flu and you are contagious or the tetanus shot gives you tetanus. etc... I realize that this is a brand new type RNA of vaccine but I am pretty sure that no where is anyone saying you actually GET COVID from it.
Hope I am not wrong here.6 -
Chef_Barbell wrote: »Hubby just texted me about how he snagged the last bag of pecans at the local grocery store! Thanksgiving is saved! :laugh: Sometimes it's the little things that help get through so much tough.
When I want pecans, nothing else will do. I'm glad he could save the holiday!4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
A vaccine is necessary for us to get back to normal...but just because the vaccine comes out doesn't mean we go back to normal immediately. It won't be distributed to enough people in the immediate to have herd immunity. Eventually, we get there...but it isn't an immediate thing.
There is more to this virus than just the mortality rate...in NM our ICU beds are at 95% of capacity which isn't anywhere close to normal...basically if you have a heart attack or something right now, you're screwed because there isn't any ICU availability...our neighboring states are in the same situation, so there's no air lifting someone to Texas somewhere either. In El Paso, TX they are full up and are using tent hospitals and filling freezer trucks with bodies.
A vaccine will help to start brining these numbers down...and yes...eventually get to normalcy.19 -
SummerSkier wrote: »I was looking thru the posts here and it seems like we know so little about this virus even after a year. One thing that bothers me is folks saying that the vaccine will GIVE you the virus so you will be contagious, I don't think that is the way it works. You might feel a little ill for 24-48 hrs - which is how the shingles shot effected me, but I don't think I was contagious for shingles after I had the shot. Just as I don't think the flu shot gives you the flu and you are contagious or the tetanus shot gives you tetanus. etc... I realize that this is a brand new type RNA of vaccine but I am pretty sure that no where is anyone saying you actually GET COVID from it.
Hope I am not wrong here.
My understanding is that there are two types of vaccines -- those that result in potential "shedding" of the live virus and those that don't. I don't believe we have yet been informed which category these two potential options fall in.
Even if you're shedding the virus, it wouldn't be accurate to say you "got" the disease in question. It would just mean you would need to be cautious, like people had to be careful back when they gave the live polio vaccine prior to 2000. People who received the live vaccine didn't "get polio," but vaccine-derived polio (someone getting it from someone who had received a live vaccination) was a thing, although rare.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
A vaccine is necessary for us to get back to normal...but just because the vaccine comes out doesn't mean we go back to normal immediately. It won't be distributed to enough people in the immediate to have herd immunity. Eventually, we get there...but it isn't an immediate thing.
There is more to this virus than just the mortality rate...in NM our ICU beds are at 95% of capacity which isn't anywhere close to normal...basically if you have a heart attack or something right now, you're screwed because there isn't any ICU availability...our neighboring states are in the same situation, so there's no air lifting someone to Texas somewhere either. In El Paso, TX they are full up and are using tent hospitals and filling freezer trucks with bodies.
A vaccine will help to start brining these numbers down...and yes...eventually get to normalcy.
Exactly. Eventually. We were never going to get some miraculous point-and-click solution.
We are currently locked in to a trajectory that we are all distancing and wearing masks until summer/fall at earliest. Period. This a the long game now. We blew through quicker game by botching the response and allowing the virus to be so widespread. Nothing will be normal until summer or fall, if then. Until then, we can control the level of pain and damage we ALL experience by following the guidelines and getting vaccinated when it's available.
To further illustrate arguments already made by Mike and others, the point of all this is of course fewer deaths. The death rate is NOT 0.3%. As Mike said, IIRC, it's 1-2%, which sounds small but if you want to look at that for the entire population over time, at just 1%, that's over 3.9 MILLION people. That's a lot of human beings! But if people don't care about that, there are a lot more consequences to the spread of this virus. While it leaves many untouched by illness, it also causes a lot of damage. Mitigation and vaccination also mean fewer people: hospitalized reducing strain on hospitals, having long illnesses or permanent organ damage, hamstrung by medical debt as a result of hospitalizations and lingering permanent health problems, missing work or losing a job or business, losing their home, going hungry, out of school on virtual getting behind in their education, devastated by poor mental health and etc. Plus, with lower virus levels business restrictions can be lifted somewhat depending on conditions on the ground, improving individual lives and the economy.
This is all that has ever been "promised".
We are free to make choices, but none of us are free from the consequences of the choices made, whether or not we were the individual who made that choice. Those who violate the guidelines are making choices that affect us all once those dominoes all fall. There is no "easy button."
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I don't think it's fair to say we "blew through quicker game" when other countries majorly locked down and now are still having a massive Covid upswing.
There's also no way of knowing what the actual death % rate is as I'm sure that there are many more cases of Covid than have been reported from people with little to no symptoms. Is it sad that people are dying? Absolutely. But I don't think that it's unreasonable that people are unhappy with the idea that is just now getting floated around that we will be doing this for another year. We are being told in one breath that we should give up holidays this year so that we can do them next year and then also being told well....a vaccine will be available but you will still have to social distance and wear a mask for another year at least (I've seen articles where they are saying it'll be late 2021 or even 2022 before we get back to normalcy...didn't Fauci say that recently?). That for many is unacceptable - not just economically (though that's a huge issue) but mentally as well. The rise of depression, anxiety, suicide, abuse, drug and alcohol abuse have already risen and if we can't get back to "normal" soon there's going to be a huge issue. Is it worth isolating and following covid restrictions if it leads to a rise in deaths due to mental health issues? Isn't the point to reduce deaths or long term effects?
People, especially on this forum and vocally on all social media, are so concerned with preventing Covid deaths that they are forgetting that there's big risks and issues with other health issues. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the cure can not be worse than the disease and we have already gone past that point where it's worse for many people.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »SummerSkier wrote: »I was looking thru the posts here and it seems like we know so little about this virus even after a year. One thing that bothers me is folks saying that the vaccine will GIVE you the virus so you will be contagious, I don't think that is the way it works. You might feel a little ill for 24-48 hrs - which is how the shingles shot effected me, but I don't think I was contagious for shingles after I had the shot. Just as I don't think the flu shot gives you the flu and you are contagious or the tetanus shot gives you tetanus. etc... I realize that this is a brand new type RNA of vaccine but I am pretty sure that no where is anyone saying you actually GET COVID from it.
Hope I am not wrong here.
My understanding is that there are two types of vaccines -- those that result in potential "shedding" of the live virus and those that don't. I don't believe we have yet been informed which category these two potential options fall in.
Even if you're shedding the virus, it wouldn't be accurate to say you "got" the disease in question. It would just mean you would need to be cautious, like people had to be careful back when they gave the live polio vaccine prior to 2000. People who received the live vaccine didn't "get polio," but vaccine-derived polio (someone getting it from someone who had received a live vaccination) was a thing, although rare.
If you go back a page or 2, I think it was here that there was an article posted yesterday from the Moderna CEO explaining that their vaccine allows for shedding of the virus.3 -
I don't think it's fair to say we "blew through quicker game" when other countries majorly locked down and now are still having a massive Covid upswing.
There's also no way of knowing what the actual death % rate is as I'm sure that there are many more cases of Covid than have been reported from people with little to no symptoms. Is it sad that people are dying? Absolutely. But I don't think that it's unreasonable that people are unhappy with the idea that is just now getting floated around that we will be doing this for another year. We are being told in one breath that we should give up holidays this year so that we can do them next year and then also being told well....a vaccine will be available but you will still have to social distance and wear a mask for another year at least (I've seen articles where they are saying it'll be late 2021 or even 2022 before we get back to normalcy...didn't Fauci say that recently?). That for many is unacceptable - not just economically (though that's a huge issue) but mentally as well. The rise of depression, anxiety, suicide, abuse, drug and alcohol abuse have already risen and if we can't get back to "normal" soon there's going to be a huge issue. Is it worth isolating and following covid restrictions if it leads to a rise in deaths due to mental health issues? Isn't the point to reduce deaths or long term effects?
People, especially on this forum and vocally on all social media, are so concerned with preventing Covid deaths that they are forgetting that there's big risks and issues with other health issues. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the cure can not be worse than the disease and we have already gone past that point where it's worse for many people.
So...exactly what is your solution? I don't get your point. You seem to think a free-for-all is better? You say you're in health care. What exactly do you do? I'm trying hard to understand your position, but it's hard hon. There is no normal anymore whichever way you turn. We are in this soup together. I see a lot of arguing and complaining, but no solutions. Frankly, it's useless. Give us some good ideas to go forward and we'll discuss it.19 -
snowflake954 wrote: »I don't think it's fair to say we "blew through quicker game" when other countries majorly locked down and now are still having a massive Covid upswing.
There's also no way of knowing what the actual death % rate is as I'm sure that there are many more cases of Covid than have been reported from people with little to no symptoms. Is it sad that people are dying? Absolutely. But I don't think that it's unreasonable that people are unhappy with the idea that is just now getting floated around that we will be doing this for another year. We are being told in one breath that we should give up holidays this year so that we can do them next year and then also being told well....a vaccine will be available but you will still have to social distance and wear a mask for another year at least (I've seen articles where they are saying it'll be late 2021 or even 2022 before we get back to normalcy...didn't Fauci say that recently?). That for many is unacceptable - not just economically (though that's a huge issue) but mentally as well. The rise of depression, anxiety, suicide, abuse, drug and alcohol abuse have already risen and if we can't get back to "normal" soon there's going to be a huge issue. Is it worth isolating and following covid restrictions if it leads to a rise in deaths due to mental health issues? Isn't the point to reduce deaths or long term effects?
People, especially on this forum and vocally on all social media, are so concerned with preventing Covid deaths that they are forgetting that there's big risks and issues with other health issues. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the cure can not be worse than the disease and we have already gone past that point where it's worse for many people.
So...exactly what is your solution? I don't get your point. You seem to think a free-for-all is better? You say you're in health care. What exactly do you do? I'm trying hard to understand your position, but it's hard hon. There is no normal anymore whichever way you turn. We are in this soup together. I see a lot of arguing and complaining, but no solutions. Frankly, it's useless. Give us some good ideas to go forward and we'll discuss it.
Sweden, BTW, tried that and is now doing more like the rest of Europe. So much for the free for all...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/17/sweden-toughens-up-coronavirus-rules-as-infections-and-deaths-rise.html
Sweden is doing similar to what we are doing in the US. Until a vaccine comes out, other than telling people to go into large rooms and breathe on each other to see who dies, there's no "easy button" as @baconslave mentioned. And we can't do that.
IF the death rate was .03%, which it assuredly is not, simple math. If 100% of the US population had it, 95,000 would die. Around 10% to 15% have had it and we're over 260K, so .03% is a number that was thrown around by media channels to minimize (intentionally misleading) the fatalities.10 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
Really???
The US reported more than 2,100 deaths in a single day. Things are projected to get worse
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/25/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html18 -
SummerSkier wrote: »I was looking thru the posts here and it seems like we know so little about this virus even after a year. One thing that bothers me is folks saying that the vaccine will GIVE you the virus so you will be contagious, I don't think that is the way it works. You might feel a little ill for 24-48 hrs - which is how the shingles shot effected me, but I don't think I was contagious for shingles after I had the shot. Just as I don't think the flu shot gives you the flu and you are contagious or the tetanus shot gives you tetanus. etc... I realize that this is a brand new type RNA of vaccine but I am pretty sure that no where is anyone saying you actually GET COVID from it.
Hope I am not wrong here.
I'm anxious about the vaccine more because it hasn't been tested very long and I anticipate it being promoted very aggressively. I am for taking experts' advice in some areas like mask wearing and social distancing, but for vaccines I would take a wait and see approach.
I think that with COVID, people have been quick to say that they are trusting science, but I don't see where we have had time to actually follow the scientific method. In science, you are supposed to make observations, then test a hypothesis. After testing and analyzing, you don't actually prove that your hypothesis is true-- you fail to reject your hypothesis.
After many failures to reject a hypothesis, it becomes a theory. And a theory isn't proven, you just fail to reject your theory. I think that people are working hard to get this solved and I definitely understand the urgency, but I hope that there is some patience with those of us who don't rush out to get the vaccine.3 -
Fewer %age wise at least...far more have also contracted the virus than before. It's a virus, it's spreads. That's what viruses do. I don't know the solution, but this whole lockdown, isolate, social distance thing is harming people just as much as Covid is and most people don't want to acknowledge that the cure is turning as bad or worse than the disease.
I'm in medical coding - specifically I'm a reviewer for Inpatient coding for a large hospital chain. I see alot of Covid charts - basically every chart that has a covid+ code on it (U07.1) flags/stops prior to billing and we review it to be sure it's correctly coded, that the pt has a positive covid test, to be sure that the new tech codes for the new treatments are properly applied if applicable. They also send us the numbers/% of bed, vent, HFNC usage for the prior week. Admits are up but vent and HFNC use is down and they know how to treat it now so outcomes are better. So I have no hands on Covid treatment experience but do have a very good grasp on the treatments used and how many are being admitted each day/week. Over the summer and early fall Covid admits were down and in the last month they have gone up quite a bit.
On the other hand psych admits are up and many people list Covid (both fear of and restriction related) as a contributing factor.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »If we can't get back to "life as usual" then what is the point of taking the vaccine? A vaccine that can have serious side effects at that. There's going to be a TON of pushback on this if true...I mean that's not what's been being told to us here in the US, until very recently, and there's going to be many who refuse to do so if we can't leave the masks and social distancing behind.
The "point" would be that an effective vaccine would result in fewer people dying, which seems like a great outcome even if we do have to wear a mask in some situations.
But we already have far fewer people dying without a vaccine. They have learned to treat it, what to do and what not to do and several medicines have been shown to help already. Overall the death toll was pretty low - wasn't it .03%? And now fewer people are dying, fewer vents are being utilized (at 1 of the large hospital chains in my state current vent usage is 37% and that's for everyone, not just Covid patients), and there are overall better outcomes. If life will stay the same whether we get the vaccine or not I think you'll find it hard to convince the majority to get a vaccine, especially one where we can't know it's long term effects and that gives side effects but doesn't result in a return to normal (which is what has been being sold to the average American, that we need a vaccine to get back to normal).
Really???
The US reported more than 2,100 deaths in a single day. Things are projected to get worse
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/25/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html
If you assume for a second that .03% was the death rate, if 100% of the current US population got Covid-19, 95K would have died. Since it's obviously not .03%, we are already way above those numbers.
That .03% figure was being thrown out by certain media outlets and sons of politicians to minimize the notion of it.
So yeah, you're right, .03% is a gigantic incorrect number.14 -
SummerSkier wrote: »I was looking thru the posts here and it seems like we know so little about this virus even after a year. One thing that bothers me is folks saying that the vaccine will GIVE you the virus so you will be contagious, I don't think that is the way it works. You might feel a little ill for 24-48 hrs - which is how the shingles shot effected me, but I don't think I was contagious for shingles after I had the shot. Just as I don't think the flu shot gives you the flu and you are contagious or the tetanus shot gives you tetanus. etc... I realize that this is a brand new type RNA of vaccine but I am pretty sure that no where is anyone saying you actually GET COVID from it.
Hope I am not wrong here.
So far it is known that a vaccine will block infection and viral reproduction in the vaccinated person by activating the immune system before the virus attacks the body; however, there is not proof yet that the vaccine can actually kill the virus and avoid shedding and population infection.
Moderna boss says COVID shot not proven to stop virus spread
https://nypost.com/2020/11/24/moderna-boss-says-covid-shot-not-proven-to-stop-virus-spread/
What this means is not that the vaccine "gives the virus", what is saying is that if a vaccinated person gets infected by the virus, he/she doesn’t get sick because of the vaccine, but can she/he still shed that virus and infect another non-vaccinated person???? or does the vaccine actually kills the virus or reduce infectivity????
We still don't have a complete answer to that question, but maybe the scientific community has it. However, if everybody gets vaccinated, eventually we will not have to worry about it.
The virus is a parasite that can only survive when it takes hold of a host (in this case us). If everybody gets vaccinated, then the virus will have nobody to help it reproduce, so we get herd immunity. So if it decides to come back for a visit, it will not have a host to feast on.
What about mutations? Well, I am sure that the scientific community will be in a permanent watch modifying vaccines accordingly, and if needed. That is what we do with the flu virus anyway.
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