Coronavirus prep
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@SModa61
Astra-Zeneca is the vaccine being used in Italy and mostly in all Europe, and I don't know if J and J has any kind of agreement in Europe, and the same with Moderna and Pfizer. The link below (pretty recent) may give you more information, but it comes from Italy so I don't know how reliable it is.
Ireland stopped vaccination with A-Z due to DVTs (blood clots), although the company said that they were not caused by the vaccine. I believe that other countries in Europe also stopped using A-Z temporarily but I read that the European Commission said that it was OK to vaccinate while investigations continue. I didn't know anything about deaths in Italy or in any other countries. That is pretty bad and I am surprised that nothing showed up in the news. Maybe I missed that.
We all have the risk of contracting COVID after vaccination if we are not careful, and if we don't follow the procedures as pre-vaccination. Immunity is not instant and most of the vaccines protect against serious disease and death but not possible infection. Without knowing what happened in the nursing home and under what conditions those occupants were living, we can only assume that the vaccine is not working or that the conditions were not safe.
Maybe @snowflake954 can share some light into this issue.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/fear-and-loathing-over-astrazeneca-vaccine-as-italy-braces-for-deadly-third-wave1 -
I had read somewhere (can't remember since it's been a few weeks since then) that a nursing home somewhere had all of their residents vaccinated, not sure if they'd had only one or both doses at the time, or if it was right after the second dose so they weren't fully protected yet. The virus swept through the facility and ended up infecting half the residents anyway, BUT...there were no serious cases, all were mild or asymptomatic and no one died or even needed hospitalization. So even if you still get COVID before your full immunity, at least the vaccine seems to take the teeth out of the disease. These were people who'd had the Moderna or Pfizer. Not sure which.
I don't know anything about the Astra-Zeneca, though, except that older people don't have as brisk an immune response to it. I wonder if the people in the nursing home in Italy had milder cases after being vaccinated like the ones here did. The PP just said they ended up with COVID, not whether they were hospitalized or died from it. Or if anyone had health complications from the vax itself. That would be good to know!7 -
Hey all, I've been MIA for a bit. I have managed to keep health aspect of MFP somewhat in control but that's about it.
Anyhow I am here hoping to get insights. If I recall correctly, there are at least two Italian members in this chat thread. I am going to recount my MIL's comments and hoping to get perspective from those living in Italy.
According to MIL, she called her more distant family who live in a very small town in the Abruzzo region. What has been said is that it is "very bad" over there. They are under strict lockdown with police patrolling the streets. They cannot walk up the street to check on relatives, and to go to the grocery store one must product some sort of card. She also states that a local nursing home was given the vaccine and "43 still got sick", and that 79 town residents who received the vaccine also contracted COVID.
Of course I can think of scenarios where one could receive the vaccine and still get sick, but MIL seems to know nothing else and the overall implication was that the vaccine that italy got "does not work".
Anyone have insights to share? I would appreciate knowing more about the Italy situation so I can share that information with my MIL.
I went online to get News from the Abruzzo region of Italy. First of all, all of Italy is in Lockdown starting today until April 6th to cover the Easter holidays. Certain regions are worse than others--Abruzzo being one.
All of us have to have a "permission slip" that is downloaded on internet and you need it if the police stop you to ask where you are going. Doctor appointments, going to work, shopping at grocery stores, supermarkets, pharmacies, church services (with strict distancing rules), and other essential services are permitted (the police may check to see if you really have an appointment). You can go for a walk (near your residence) or go jogging, walking in the park, exercises, etc, but only individually, no group outdoor sessions, and always close to home.
All restaurants, pastry shops, bars, etc are closed to customers--take out only. Masks must be on properly. No group assemblies, or going outside your region. Fines are steep for noncompliance.
Vaccinations are proceeding all over the country. First to be vaccinated were medical personnel, police, over 90, nursing homes, and teachers. They are now doing over 80 and military personnel also.
Our first vaccines were Pfizer and Moderna. Astra Zeneca has been added after European Union approval several weeks ago. It was to be used on police and military. 2 deaths within 24 hours of the vaccine. One was a 45 yr old military man. He had no previous health problems. It's too soon to say what exactly happened. His wife said he was fine and then in the night, arrested and quickly died. The statistics of the vaccine still have a low death rate and it's not been determined that the vaccine caused these deaths. Soon Johnson and Johnson will arrive, and the Russian Sputnik is waiting approval.
I'd like to be clear that we've been on a sort of mini Lockdown since Christmas. There have been restrictions all along. Things were loosened up a little--now we're back to strict. Abruzzo has a higher COVID infection rate than the majority of the country. The English variant is rampaging there. They are behind in vaccinations for the over 80 group compared to the rest of the country. Hospitals are full and there have been patient airlifts, especially to us, here in Rome.
As far as your MIL's family is concerned, without knowing the name of the town, I can't give you specifics for them, so don't know their situation. Some of the things you're reporting seem strange, but I don't want to say she's wrong and it's not happening. In these times who knows what their mayor might do to stop the infection?
Your reporter in Rome........24 -
@Gisel2015 @jenilla1 @snowflake954 Thank you so much for your replies. The town my MIL is from is Orsogna. Please do note that what I have written above is third hand and sourced from a very concerned 81 year old, so who knows how details may have been altered along the way. The telephone game is real!
As for the nursing homes and community contractions post vaccine, I have heard and read plenty about the time it takes for immunity to be established, and also the scenario where people become overly confident post vaccine and cause their own exposures. I have even heard claims of getting COVID from standing in line for the vaccine. I do not have any other details of illness timeline or severity that would help parse the causality.
Snowflake, it will be interesting to see if you have any further insights using the town's name.
Thanks all!
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@Gisel2015 @jenilla1 @snowflake954 Thank you so much for your replies. The town my MIL is from is Orsogna. Please do note that what I have written above is third hand and sourced from a very concerned 81 year old, so who knows how details may have been altered along the way. The telephone game is real!
As for the nursing homes and community contractions post vaccine, I have heard and read plenty about the time it takes for immunity to be established, and also the scenario where people become overly confident post vaccine and cause their own exposures. I have even heard claims of getting COVID from standing in line for the vaccine. I do not have any other details of illness timeline or severity that would help parse the causality.
Snowflake, it will be interesting to see if you have any further insights using the town's name.
Thanks all!
I went on the town's web page. As of March 9th, they have 2 recovered and 15 new positives, giving them 37 positive COVID cases overall. In the retirement home Casa del Sole (House of the Sun), there are 42 being constantly monitored--doing fine.
If your MIL can read Italian, it might do to let her see for herself, if it would set her mind at ease. The site warns against gatherings during Lockdown and that the local authorities will levy fines. I think the confusion with her reporting that they need a "card" to go to the supermarket is because in Italian "carte" means two things: it can be a card, such as a credit card ( carte di credito) or it can be a piece of paper (foglio di carte). What you need if you're out and about now is that piece of paper that you download and fill out yourself with address, phone number and reason for leaving your home. However, I've never been stopped and lots of people like me are pulling their shopping trolley, so it's obvious where you're going. The police won't bother you. There is a curfew, and they will stop people about after it. To tell the truth, the police are sick of this whole thing too.9 -
thank you so much @snowflake954 Can you do me a favor? I have tried searching for a town web page type and I get nothing like what you are describing. Can you provide me the link? Google hates me. I would love to offer the web page to my MIL. My husband might even remember his Italian well enough but its been a long time since Italian was his sole language.0
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thank you so much @snowflake954 Can you do me a favor? I have tried searching for a town web page type and I get nothing like what you are describing. Can you provide me the link? Google hates me. I would love to offer the web page to my MIL. My husband might even remember his Italian well enough but its been a long time since Italian was his sole language.
Ha! You are asking a computer illiterate to give you a link. Do this: type in orsogna. Then when the choices pop up click on Comune di Orsogna (Chieti) Italy. This will put you on their page.
Here's their address: comune.orsogna.chieti.it
Hope that gets you there.7 -
snowflake954 wrote: »thank you so much @snowflake954 Can you do me a favor? I have tried searching for a town web page type and I get nothing like what you are describing. Can you provide me the link? Google hates me. I would love to offer the web page to my MIL. My husband might even remember his Italian well enough but its been a long time since Italian was his sole language.
Ha! You are asking a computer illiterate to give you a link. Do this: type in orsogna. Then when the choices pop up click on Comune di Orsogna (Chieti) Italy. This will put you on their page.
Here's their address: comune.orsogna.chieti.it
Hope that gets you there.
@snowflake954 You are magic! Thank you2 -
Astra Zeneca has been suspended in Italy pending further investigation.4
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snowflake954 wrote: »Astra Zeneca has been suspended in Italy pending further investigation.
It's very odd how the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine keeps attracting negative comments from European politicians and others, it seems to have to repeatedly refute accusations which don't eventually get proven to have basis in fact.
The latest "thrombosis risk" statements seem designed to alarm even though the incidence of AZ vaccinated people getting thrombosis appears to be no higher than the general incidence in un-vaccinated people.
Both the European Medicines Agency and the WHO say to continue using it but many EU countries are reacting ahead of those bodies deliberations by withdrawing it.7 -
@snowflake954 Hubby just called his mother and relayed what info. She was thoroughly confused and she recounted another story relating to the town. She said there is a small grocery store in the town and the husband and wife owners contracted COVID. The store was closed, the contents of the store thrown out, and every customer that had entered in the previous X days was tested. They are comparing the struggle to WW II, and Orsogna was a key battle ground between the germans and the allies.1
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@snowflake954 Hubby just called his mother and relayed what info. She was thoroughly confused and she recounted another story relating to the town. She said there is a small grocery store in the town and the husband and wife owners contracted COVID. The store was closed, the contents of the store thrown out, and every customer that had entered in the previous X days was tested. They are comparing the struggle to WW II, and Orsogna was a key battle ground between the germans and the allies.
Small Italian towns, especially in the mountains, tend to be in a mindset at least 50 yrs behind the times. COVID is frightening many people. The older generation is very set in their ways.2 -
snowflake954 wrote: »@snowflake954 Hubby just called his mother and relayed what info. She was thoroughly confused and she recounted another story relating to the town. She said there is a small grocery store in the town and the husband and wife owners contracted COVID. The store was closed, the contents of the store thrown out, and every customer that had entered in the previous X days was tested. They are comparing the struggle to WW II, and Orsogna was a key battle ground between the germans and the allies.
Small Italian towns, especially in the mountains, tend to be in a mindset at least 50 yrs behind the times. COVID is frightening many people. The older generation is very set in their ways.
@snowflake954 That could be a factor in this all!3 -
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snowflake954 wrote: »Astra Zeneca has been suspended in Italy pending further investigation.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/14/976994771/ireland-joins-list-of-countries-pausing-use-of-astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine
It's unclear if the vaccine was responsible for the blood clots. Also, it's yet to be proven the number of blood clots would be above what the population likely would have without the vaccine. (Just because they had the vaccine and had blood clots doesn't necessarily mean that the vaccine caused the blood clots.)
Americans, you don't need to worry about this one -- this is the European version.6 -
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hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.13 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.
Well also the "truth" when it comes to science is often complicated and what we know and understand today may not be the same as next month or year. Or you need to understand some context and background before really understanding the science -- which is not generally conveyed through a meme even a good one. People by nature want hard and fast facts that are easy to digest...science doesn't really work that way.7 -
kenyonhaff wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.
Well also the "truth" when it comes to science is often complicated and what we know and understand today may not be the same as next month or year. Or you need to understand some context and background before really understanding the science -- which is not generally conveyed through a meme even a good one. People by nature want hard and fast facts that are easy to digest...science doesn't really work that way.
QFT. There's an analogy I absolutely love. Reuben Hersch, a philosopher of mathematics, says the actual work mathematicians do is like a restaurant. There's a front and a back. The front is where customers dine and it looks placid and serene. The front of mathematics looks similarly placid, with right answers and wrong answers and clear distinctions between them, no uncertainties. This is not how actual mathematics works at all. Real mathematics is like the restaurant in back, the kitchen, where it can be chaotic and uncertain, messy with lots of experimentation. People work with concepts like, "it may look like..." and "I'm wondering if..." I totally identify with this in physics, also. There is so much gray area that non-scientists prefer not to see. I am not a biologist or infectious disease expert, but as a scientist, it is not hard to imagine and appreciate nuance even if I don't understand it.10 -
I have a red itchy rash, similar to hives or eczema, came on within about a week of the 1st shot (Pfizer). I've had eczema prior to the shot, but was not in an active break out, and usually my eczema confined itself to my elbow area. This rash has appeared on my forehead, wrists, forearms, ankles and maybe my back (I can't see but it itches too). My feet and hands feel like they itch terribly but there is no rash there, just itch. I don't know for sure that it is a side effect of the shot or if it is something else that is doing this which I cannot determine. I hate the itch.15
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Had my first shot on Sunday, didn't even feel the needle. Didn't feel anything until Monday morning. Had a feel like I might be coming down with something but I went into work. It got worse as the day progressed. Felt like I had COVID for a day, but am headed back to normal today.15
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cwolfman13 wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.
are you saying my degree from the university of facebook is useless?18 -
Just saw a story on the news that a baby born three weeks after the mom was vaccinated tested positive for antibodies
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Just saw a story on the news that a baby born three weeks after the mom was vaccinated tested positive for antibodies
Good news! In addition, it seems that the mother's antibodies after vaccination have been found in breast milk too. That will give the newborn/infant a good level of protection. Although the study is small and not peer reviewed yet, the results are promising since the transmission of the antibodies in-utero (directly thru the blood), is different than the transmission via breast milk (GI track).
Check the link below.
Study: COVID-19 Antibodies Found In Breast Milk After Vaccine
https://www.wtrf.com/news/health/coronavirus/study-covid-19-antibodies-found-in-breast-milk-after-vaccine/10 -
kenyonhaff wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.
Well also the "truth" when it comes to science is often complicated and what we know and understand today may not be the same as next month or year. Or you need to understand some context and background before really understanding the science -- which is not generally conveyed through a meme even a good one. People by nature want hard and fast facts that are easy to digest...science doesn't really work that way.
Yeah - some folks want there to be a 100% guarantee that if they get the vaccine, they will automatically have a viral load of 0 and have 0% chance of spreading the virus. If they don't have that guarantee, they say No.6 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »hobbitses333 wrote: »
This is one of the reasons why memes make for bad "news"...they're usually not factual. I'm always amazed at the number of people on FB or twitter or whatever who actually present memes as factual "news" and legitimate debate.
Yes, after Jan 6 I had to start fact checking memes before I passed them along. I'd share the meme AND a news article from a reputable source.
Or if someone else shared a meme I'd chime in with sourcing.5 -
I had the second shot, felt really tired for one day but that was it.12
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I got the first shot yesterday and by late afternoon I was exhauseted and slept for 3 hours after I got home. Hope the 2nd shot doesn't cause a lot more symptoms.6
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An update from Belgium on the AZ vaccine. A lot of countries in Europe have put the AZ vaccines on hold as they suspect there might be a link with bloodcloths. Our little country is almost the only one who is not only continuing with the vaccine, but also see an opportunity to get more shots available to the public. If AZ cannot deliver to other countries, we are happy to take over their share. At a vaccination rate of 9% (first and second shot together on the population older than 18), we desperately need some more. The risk outweighs the Covid risk.
The EMA (European Medicine Agency) is doing a study as we speak and they will share their findings tonight.
And as in almost every other EU country, we see a dramatic surge in contamination, hospitalizations and ER beds being taken by Covid patients. The alarming trend is that the patients in ER are younger than before (almost all care home residents are vaccinated) and decline more rapidly. The trend in contamination is booming in the 0-19 years segment. The only factor that we can think of is that the British variant - which is now the most identified - is simply much more contagious and produces heftier symptoms.
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Antiopelle wrote: »An update from Belgium on the AZ vaccine. A lot of countries in Europe have put the AZ vaccines on hold as they suspect there might be a link with bloodcloths. Our little country is almost the only one who is not only continuing with the vaccine, but also see an opportunity to get more shots available to the public. If AZ cannot deliver to other countries, we are happy to take over their share. At a vaccination rate of 9% (first and second shot together on the population older than 18), we desperately need some more. The risk outweighs the Covid risk.
The EMA (European Medicine Agency) is doing a study as we speak and they will share their findings tonight.
And as in almost every other EU country, we see a dramatic surge in contamination, hospitalizations and ER beds being taken by Covid patients. The alarming trend is that the patients in ER are younger than before (almost all care home residents are vaccinated) and decline more rapidly. The trend in contamination is booming in the 0-19 years segment. The only factor that we can think of is that the British variant - which is now the most identified - is simply much more contagious and produces heftier symptoms.
Finland is another rarity in Europe, still vaccinating with AZ. The Finnish health officials just published their statistics research today, and here's the point: while some people have gotten blood clots after getting the AZ vaccine, the amount of post-vaccine blood clots is proportional to the amount of blood clots in the same time period and demographic without the vaccine. So according to the officials it's the same as with deaths: people die (and get blood clots) at the same rate as before, some of those people just coincidentally get the vaccine right before it happens.
Finland is continuing to vaccinate with Astra Zeneca unless the EU medical agency (EMA) publishes a statement on the contrary.15
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