High carb vegan diet
Replies
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It's not a deposition; I have other goals today aside from running down a full-scale report on extrapolated dietary data for B-12 availability in antiquity. "Impossible without modern technology" was a stand-out sentence and I wanted to amend it. If your hunger for knowledge is that extensive I suggest you hop on EBSCO or some equivalent.
Would veganism have been a sub-optimal diet during most of pre-industrial revolution human existence? Sure.
Were the vast majority of diets during human existence sub-optimal by modern standards? Absolutely.
Would veganism have been "impossible"? I doubt it.
Even in an omnivore diet, are there several or dozens of insufficiencies, vitamin and otherwise, that affected countless people across however many generations? Without a doubt.
I'm not arguing that everyone and their mom should and could have been vegan since the first people started walking on two legs. And I've stated more than once that modern veganism is without question enabled by the current landscape of food and available dietary options.
That being said, even I will admit that there are poorly-informed folks on both sides of the equation. Even some of the information floating around from the posters defending veganism is pretty rough around the edges, to put it nicely. Some of it is just wrong.0 -
As more and more walking meat factories (cows, sheep - you know, animals you eat) are bred indoors with no access to soil borne vegetation, will we see a situation where either animals will need to be supplemented with B12 or animals cease to be a reliable source of B!2 for vegans and omnivores alike?0
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Woah, woah woah...
Since when was it not okay to eat NATURAL(god given, if you will) foods? I think, eating low fat is very beneficial. You're much less likely to get heart disease.
Im just going to state some facts..
We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST
We can simply get that & more from plant based foods( Such as leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, & much more)
B12 is found in SOIL. Meat eaters can have a B12 deficiency.
Animals that are torture & you eat their dead flesh..DOES affect you. Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there & your body is processing it VERY slowly. Also, studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.
Now, im not saying you shouldn't eat meat(your life, yah know)...but maybe opt for organic & eat WAAAY less red meat.....
Know where your food is coming from. PLEASE. Reasearch.
Get your animal products from a farm, where you can see how animals are treated
and eat less dairy, because it causes mucus(i know, before i went dairy free(due to allergy), i use to wake up every morning, coughing up gunk, having a runny or stuffed nose..but when i went dairy free..after a week, i didn't have any of that!)
Here's some links...
http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/how-much-protein-do-we-actually-need/
http://www.happycow.net/health-vitamins-B12.html
http://www.mandyparker.com/Digestive System And Poo.htm
The OP has one supporter! yeah, go you! Unfortunately this "supporter" has an ED so i would stay away from any advice here
Wow. My disordered habits, have NOTHING, to do with this. That's very low of you to say that. I've done research. & im not 'supporting' anyway, i was just stating my opinion, based on my knowledge.0 -
Hey OP, I have been a vegetarian (close to a vegan diet - the occasional veggie pizza or egg breakfast sandwich while traveling being the rare exceptions) for almost a year now, and so far I physically feel far better than I did when I ate meat.
However, the first 100+lbs I lost was WHILE I was still eating meat. I should have been gaining weight that whole time, right?
No. Eating animals doesn't make you fat.
Nowadays, even without meat, I still eat LOTS of fat... Coconut oil, rice bran oil, olive oil, peanut oil... And nuts! Cashews this, walnuts that! Almond butter, peanut butter... Avocados. Lots and lots of fat - I'm often over 100g per day! I should be packing on the pounds, right?
Wrong. Fats don't make you fat.
Consuming more calories than you burn makes you fat.
We go through this crap every time some impressionable kid gets all fired up by a PeTA video. They buy into the hypocritical cult lies and start knocking on the virtual doors of members here and elsewhere, spreading their false doctrine.
Veganism shouldn't be a religion. Go and live your life. Eat what you want. Let others eat what they want.0 -
This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.
And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.
The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.
I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.
Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.0 -
Lol, this thread.
Don't take the internet too seriously. Best wishes to everyone and their dieting/life goals.0 -
This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.
And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.
The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.
I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.
Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.
I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:0 -
I used to worry about protein but realized very fast that protein is not something you need to worry about especially as a cyclist since cycling doesn't really require any muscle.
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^^^^^^^ All of this is Vegan so you are saying that people can eat as much of this stuff as they want everyday and never gain weight because it's Vegan?
Oh my gosh, I knew about the Oreos... but ALL of this is vegan?!
Excuse me, this vegan is going to go get fat now. Later.0 -
This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.
And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.
The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.
I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.
Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.
I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:
Sorry - I'm not sure what you mean - I was getting back to you as I said I would. the only peoples I can think of who may have fled into the "mountains of the East" may have been Himalayan Buddhists - but wouldn't have been vegan; they would have at least drunk milk.
What peoples did you have in mind?0 -
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This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.
And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.
The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.
I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.
Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.
I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:
Sorry - I'm not sure what you mean - I was getting back to you as I said I would. the only peoples I can think of who may have fled into the "mountains of the East" may have been Himalayan Buddhists - but wouldn't have been vegan; they would have at least drunk milk.
What peoples did you have in mind?
I'm not the one who said anything about mountains of the east. That was another poster.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1159795-high-carb-vegan-diet?page=5#posts-181261640 -
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Team meat?
Sounds hot.0 -
How did I miss this post? A swearing vegan who eats 4000 calories in pasta a day?
Sweet!
ETA: Vegan is 18. I'll have to be sure and ask all my questions now while it still knows everything.0 -
Wow. My disordered habits, have NOTHING, to do with this. That's very low of you to say that. I've done research. & im not 'supporting' anyway, i was just stating my opinion, based on my knowledge.
oh no someone call the Whambulance...welcome to the interwebs sweetie
Excuse you. You are fairly new to this site and maybe you don't understand that personal attacks don't sit well with us. Sounds like that person is well aware of their eating issues and is irrelevant to the topic. Might want to fix that before you get banned.0 -
It always surprises me how contentious conversations about veganism can be.
My 0.02:
It is possible to be a vegan and be unhealthy.
It is possible to be an omnivore and be unhealthy.
Humans are omnivores; this does not mean that all modern diets are justified.
Veganism is no more impractical or unsustainable than modern meat-eating practices. Arguably, less so.
Feast, all ye minions, on the spoils of internet chattel.
Justified? As an omnivore, do I need to submit my omnivorous diet plan to some subcommittee or something?0 -
So me loosing weight while eating 4000 cals a day, that's due to what? Before I would easily gain weight if I ate that much. Try it out for yourself before you judge me.I love new vegans/vegetarians ready to preach after 6 weeks of experience.
Basically, you're a freshman and it's October of your first semester. Come at me when you get your degree.
If OP learns nothing else, I hope it is how to learn how to spell 'lose'. You lose weight, you loosen your necktie.0 -
Woah, woah woah...
Since when was it not okay to eat NATURAL(god given, if you will) foods? I think, eating low fat is very beneficial. You're much less likely to get heart disease.
Im just going to state some facts..
We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST
We can simply get that & more from plant based foods( Such as leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, & much more)
B12 is found in SOIL. Meat eaters can have a B12 deficiency.
Animals that are torture & you eat their dead flesh..DOES affect you. Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there & your body is processing it VERY slowly. Also, studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.
Now, im not saying you shouldn't eat meat(your life, yah know)...but maybe opt for organic & eat WAAAY less red meat.....
Know where your food is coming from. PLEASE. Reasearch.
Get your animal products from a farm, where you can see how animals are treated
and eat less dairy, because it causes mucus(i know, before i went dairy free(due to allergy), i use to wake up every morning, coughing up gunk, having a runny or stuffed nose..but when i went dairy free..after a week, i didn't have any of that!)
Here's some links...
http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/how-much-protein-do-we-actually-need/
http://www.happycow.net/health-vitamins-B12.html
http://www.mandyparker.com/Digestive System And Poo.htm
You have a dairy intolerance. Not everyone does. The Masai people pretty much live on cow blood and milk. Do you want to be the one to tell them their diet is not 'natural'?0 -
I used to worry about protein but realized very fast that protein is not something you need to worry about especially as a cyclist since cycling doesn't really require any muscle.
Yeah, that was another jaw dropper. Pretty sure we've got a troll on our hands. 'cause you know. Lance Armstrong doesn't have any muscles. :huh:0 -
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Chicken or the egg. Veganism is (arguably) impossible in modern technology BECAUSE of modern technology. Without that technology, when it comes to B12, we don't need that technology.
veganism is impossible without modern technology because it's impossible to get enough protein from plant sources without both agriculture and an appropriate climate for growing high protein plants, either through a climate controlled greenhouse or through the ability to transport foods around the world (i.e. international trade). Plus the ability to manufacture vitamin B12 supplements, which is pretty minor compared to the problem of how to get enough protein from plant only sources.
Humans evolved as hunter-gatherers, agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at the earliest and in many parts of the world not until the last few hundred years and there are small parts of the world where people still live as hunter-gatherers. It is impossible to be vegan on a hunter-gatherer diet. In fact it's an oxymoron, as you'd be a gatherer only, and you'd die of protein deficiency disease because you simply cannot gather enough plant food to meet the protein requirements for a human to survive on, never mind the protein requirements of pregnant and lactating women (evolution is about successful reproduction, not just survival).
Hunter-gatherers, both modern ones and stone age ones got their vitamin B12 from eating animals. Soil bacteria has nothing to do with it. (and you can wash dirt off root vegetables and other plants gathered from under the ground with palaeolithc technology, you just wash it in a stream. Plus middle palaeolithic humans cooked this kind of food, which would have killed bacteria, not that it's relevant because they would have got their vitamin B12 from eating meat anyway)
Humans are omnivores, not herbivores. It's wonderful (for those who want to be vegan for ethical reasons) that humans have developed a sufficiently high level of technology to be able to survive on a vegan diet. But it's total science fiction to suggest that we evolved as herbivores. We are omnivores and evolved that way, and nearly all species of primate are omnivores. And compared to other primates, we have bigger brains, smaller teeth, hands adapted for making stone tools and shorter guts.... all these are adaptations for obtaining and eating meat in greater quantities than other primates.0 -
neandermagnonSorry but the fossil record doesn't agree with you. The evolution of the entire Homo genus is a story of using progressively more advanced forms of stone age technology to get more and higher quality meat and animal products (such as using stone tools to extract brains and bone marrow from carcases) while human brains got bigger and bigger.
It's not just the genus Homo either, all the great apes are omnivores, even gorillas (contrary to what vegan propaganda will try to tell you).
I believe you are right neandermagnon.
It may be an idealistic view I have of the dark ages, but I feel the hunters of animals on open planes would have, at least for efficiencies sake, been more efficient hunters and cave painting evidence suggests that they had more respect for the animals they killed compared to the vast and impersonal captive animal processing industry we have today.
It is true, we took the opportunistic path that led us to where we are today, but modern technology enables some of us (all of us if we wanted to) to choose to opt out of the meat market. Animals besides, a plant based diet is more efficient in finding enough food to feed an ever increasing human population.
These are my views and reasons for opting out of flesh food and I am aware they are open to debate and that is fine.
I totally respect your opinion about that, and other vegans who are vegan for ethical reasons, so long as you're all paying attention to getting adequate nutrition. It's not what I believe, but I do respect it. I only have issues with the pseudoscience, i.e. people making false claims about health benefits, or trying to say humans are not adapted for eating meat, and so on.
you're right that hunter-gatherers have a lot of respect for the animals they eat. When you're living that close to nature and totally dependent on nature for your survival, then it's natural to respect nature, and all your food sources, both plant and animal. Many modern people tend to live quite far removed from nature so tend to forget we're still dependent on it (for all our advances in agriculture, we still need suitable climate conditions, decent soil, etc to be able to produce enough food).0 -
I don't think is would be just protein deficiency, but overall calorie deficiency. A hunter-gatherer would not stumble upon a tilled field of veggies and grains. The meat provided fat, protein and enough calories to sustain life. Finding a couple berries and tubers a day would not provide enough calories.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Chicken or the egg. Veganism is (arguably) impossible in modern technology BECAUSE of modern technology. Without that technology, when it comes to B12, we don't need that technology.
veganism is impossible without modern technology because it's impossible to get enough protein from plant sources without both agriculture and an appropriate climate for growing high protein plants, either through a climate controlled greenhouse or through the ability to transport foods around the world (i.e. international trade). Plus the ability to manufacture vitamin B12 supplements, which is pretty minor compared to the problem of how to get enough protein from plant only sources.
Humans evolved as hunter-gatherers, agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at the earliest and in many parts of the world not until the last few hundred years and there are small parts of the world where people still live as hunter-gatherers. It is impossible to be vegan on a hunter-gatherer diet. In fact it's an oxymoron, as you'd be a gatherer only, and you'd die of protein deficiency disease because you simply cannot gather enough plant food to meet the protein requirements for a human to survive on, never mind the protein requirements of pregnant and lactating women (evolution is about successful reproduction, not just survival).
Hunter-gatherers, both modern ones and stone age ones got their vitamin B12 from eating animals. Soil bacteria has nothing to do with it. (and you can wash dirt off root vegetables and other plants gathered from under the ground with palaeolithc technology, you just wash it in a stream. Plus middle palaeolithic humans cooked this kind of food, which would have killed bacteria, not that it's relevant because they would have got their vitamin B12 from eating meat anyway)
Humans are omnivores, not herbivores. It's wonderful (for those who want to be vegan for ethical reasons) that humans have developed a sufficiently high level of technology to be able to survive on a vegan diet. But it's total science fiction to suggest that we evolved as herbivores. We are omnivores and evolved that way, and nearly all species of primate are omnivores. And compared to other primates, we have bigger brains, smaller teeth, hands adapted for making stone tools and shorter guts.... all these are adaptations for obtaining and eating meat in greater quantities than other primates.0 -
I don't think is would be just protein deficiency, but overall calorie deficiency. A hunter-gatherer would not stumble upon a tilled field of veggies and grains. The meat provided fat, protein and enough calories to sustain life. Finding a couple berries and tubers a day would not provide enough calories.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Chicken or the egg. Veganism is (arguably) impossible in modern technology BECAUSE of modern technology. Without that technology, when it comes to B12, we don't need that technology.
veganism is impossible without modern technology because it's impossible to get enough protein from plant sources without both agriculture and an appropriate climate for growing high protein plants, either through a climate controlled greenhouse or through the ability to transport foods around the world (i.e. international trade). Plus the ability to manufacture vitamin B12 supplements, which is pretty minor compared to the problem of how to get enough protein from plant only sources.
Humans evolved as hunter-gatherers, agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at the earliest and in many parts of the world not until the last few hundred years and there are small parts of the world where people still live as hunter-gatherers. It is impossible to be vegan on a hunter-gatherer diet. In fact it's an oxymoron, as you'd be a gatherer only, and you'd die of protein deficiency disease because you simply cannot gather enough plant food to meet the protein requirements for a human to survive on, never mind the protein requirements of pregnant and lactating women (evolution is about successful reproduction, not just survival).
Hunter-gatherers, both modern ones and stone age ones got their vitamin B12 from eating animals. Soil bacteria has nothing to do with it. (and you can wash dirt off root vegetables and other plants gathered from under the ground with palaeolithc technology, you just wash it in a stream. Plus middle palaeolithic humans cooked this kind of food, which would have killed bacteria, not that it's relevant because they would have got their vitamin B12 from eating meat anyway)
Humans are omnivores, not herbivores. It's wonderful (for those who want to be vegan for ethical reasons) that humans have developed a sufficiently high level of technology to be able to survive on a vegan diet. But it's total science fiction to suggest that we evolved as herbivores. We are omnivores and evolved that way, and nearly all species of primate are omnivores. And compared to other primates, we have bigger brains, smaller teeth, hands adapted for making stone tools and shorter guts.... all these are adaptations for obtaining and eating meat in greater quantities than other primates.
yeah that's true as well.
although depending on the environment and time of year you can get quite a lot of calories from plant sources... but not enough to survive on long term and availability would be very seasonal (so your point still stands)0 -
Team meat?
This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.
The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.
Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.
And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.
The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.
I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.
Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.
I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:
Sorry - I'm not sure what you mean - I was getting back to you as I said I would. the only peoples I can think of who may have fled into the "mountains of the East" may have been Himalayan Buddhists - but wouldn't have been vegan; they would have at least drunk milk.
What peoples did you have in mind?
I'm not the one who said anything about mountains of the east. That was another poster.
Oh yes, sorry - this thread has gone on so long I don't know who said what about what to who anymore (I do notice the OP is nowhere to be seen).
- either need to lie down in a dark room, flee to the "mountains of the East", or grab a bacon sandwich.
why is it that whenever a vegan thinks of meat they would like to indulge in - its always bacon? Bacon - mmmmmmmmmm0 -
I thought this was interesting, and perhaps comforting to new vegans:
"The human body stores several years' worth of vitamin B12 in the liver, so nutritional deficiency of this vitamin is extremely rare."
But:
"However, deficiency can result from being unable to use vitamin B12. Inability to absorb vitamin B12 from the intestinal tract can be caused by pernicious anemia. Vitamin B12 deficiency is common in the elderly."
And:
"HIV-infected persons and vegetarians who are not taking in proper amounts of B12 are also prone to deficiency."
Source:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-B12/NS_patient-vitaminb120 -
Wow. Just wow.0
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Thanks. I take b12 pills everyday and also supplement with iron since I'm a cyclist I need that hemoglobin to be high. So the only nutrient I sometimes worry about is getting enough calories during the days I ride +100km. I could probably ride 100km while calorie restricting but it wouldn't be very effective long term since I'll just end up overtraining. I used to worry about protein but realized very fast that protein is not something you need to worry about especially as a cyclist since cycling doesn't really require any muscle. I just have to watch out so I don't become too lean on the high carb diet, I don't wanna look like a meth addict, but it might be difficult too avoid since I train a lot. Man, going vegan was probably my wised choice I've ever made, saving the animals at the same time being healthy and skinny. Check this guy out and you'll get a better picture of what I mean by saying "high carb low fat is the way to go"
So me loosing weight while eating 4000 cals a day, that's due to what? Before I would easily gain weight if I ate that much. Try it out for yourself before you judge me.I love new vegans/vegetarians ready to preach after 6 weeks of experience.
Basically, you're a freshman and it's October of your first semester. Come at me when you get your degree.
If you were eating a lot of processed foods before, it could be your salt levels going down which can also cause a loss of water weight. But if being vegan works for you, if you feel great, satisfied after eating, and happy, by all means, keep doing it.
Just be careful to get all the nutrients you need every day so you don't feel rundown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0yPMshheUI.
I'm surprised no one picked up on this.
The high volume training and long rides may well explain the weight loss on a higher cal diet esp combined with the fact he's an 18 year old male.
Too busy discussing b12? :laugh:0 -
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?I used to worry about protein but realized very fast that protein is not something you need to worry about especially as a cyclist since cycling doesn't really require any muscle.0
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