High carb vegan diet

jonnythan

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.

And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.

The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.

Levesque_7

Woah, woah woah...
Since when was it not okay to eat NATURAL(god given, if you will) foods? I think, eating low fat is very beneficial. You're much less likely to get heart disease.
Im just going to state some facts..
We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST
We can simply get that & more from plant based foods( Such as leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, & much more)
B12 is found in SOIL. Meat eaters can have a B12 deficiency.
Animals that are torture & you eat their dead flesh..DOES affect you. Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there & your body is processing it VERY slowly. Also, studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.
Now, im not saying you shouldn't eat meat(your life, yah know)...but maybe opt for organic & eat WAAAY less red meat.....
Know where your food is coming from. PLEASE. Reasearch.
Get your animal products from a farm, where you can see how animals are treated
and eat less dairy, because it causes mucus(i know, before i went dairy free(due to allergy), i use to wake up every morning, coughing up gunk, having a runny or stuffed nose..but when i went dairy free..after a week, i didn't have any of that!)
Here's some links...
http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/how-much-protein-do-we-actually-need/
http://www.happycow.net/health-vitamins-B12.html
http://www.mandyparker.com/Digestive System And Poo.htm

The OP has one supporter! yeah, go you! Unfortunately this "supporter" has an ED so i would stay away from any advice here

be_havens

Even 'dirt' is an imperfect answer. Sure, ruminants like cows can get some of their B-12 from 'dirt' sort of, but what they're really doing is eating up old feces, a specific kind called 'cecotrope' feces that is essentially like cud, but pooped out rather than chewed on. Intestinal bacteria help the production of B-12 and they re-eat it to obtain the remaining nutrients.

That's not really what humans do. I doubt we could absorb much of it that way anyway.

There are foods, however, that do contain meaningful, though not incredible, amount of B-12. They are certainly not foods that all historic populations would have had large-scale access to, but definitely possible.

Fermentation seems to be a key factor, so a number of traditional Korean foods, kimchi and fermented soybean curds, Chlorella (a type of algae), Spirulina, a few kinds of seaweed, and some kombucha brands list B-12 on their ingredients list though I'm not sure if it's biologically active or not. I'd have to look it up. Supposedly there are some bugs and insects that can also be useful sources of B-12 but I don't remember the details. There are a few others, but my memory isn't exhaustive.

Obviously the insect part depends on personal decisions about veganism. Most foods containing large amounts of B-12 would definitely not be considered vegan. Yogurt, beef, eggs, etc.

Veganism as we know it is definitely a modern response to dietary concerns. But there's a lot to be concerned about on all sides of the plate. Humans, especially first-world humans, don't eat very healthy diets overall. Veganism seems less of a concern than the signs on the Carl's Jr. I pass by on the way to work.

jonnythan

We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST

So you need more protein to function the more calories you eat? Where does this 15% number come from? What scientific studies can you cite for this number?

Fact is most of us don't want to simply "function." High protein diets preserve lean mass, and lean mass is good for your health.

Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there
studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.

Oh dear.

jonnythan

a number of traditional Korean foods, kimchi and fermented soybean curds, Chlorella (a type of algae), Spirulina, a few kinds of seaweed, and some kombucha brands list B-12 on their ingredients list though I'm not sure if it's biologically active or not. I'd have to look it up.

Sounds good. Look it up, and see how much biologically active B12 there is in those foods.

I'll wait.

Supposedly there are some bugs and insects that can also be useful sources of B-12 but I don't remember the details. There are a few others, but my memory isn't exhaustive.

Insects are animals. You can't be vegan and harvest inects for food.

rbear713

Your analogy is flawed. A predatory animal, such as a wolf, feasts when a kill is made but then they won't eat for days afterwards. I assume you don't eat 4000cals then skip a days worth of eating do you, so that it evens out at 2000cals/day?

Listen, if you're hungry or you just want some food then go and do it, we are a part of nature and in nature there is no calorie restriction. If a wolf had access to food at all times he would eat is brains out without putting on a single pound. Look at pets for instance, a cat eats all they and sleeps all they but won't gain weight. Just try it out for 2 weeks and you'll see what I'm talking about.

ok - this is retard logic. pets get FAT. They get overfed and lay around all day and get FAT. A wolf who ate all day every day would get FAT. I have a close friend who is a farmer in NJ - He grows and sells Peaches and Apples. He gets FAT every summer cuz he eats peaches all day!! NO **** - its true! But then he slims down in the winter again, cuz hes not OVEREATING. Like so many have said, Congratulations on your weight loss and your newfound health. HOWEVER, please don't push your no meat agenda on others. Some of us like meat! To each his own, friend!

Please try to understand that gaining weight has to do with consuming more calories than you use to fuel yourself. Losing (not Loosing, BTW) weight happens when you use more calories to fuel your body than you consume. It really is that simple.

Love that you love being Vegan, and I LOVE fruits and veggies - but for me, MEAT has its place in my diet - because it fuels my muscles better than any other calories I consume....so take a step back and try to see the big picture - Do what works for YOU - just let the rest of us do what works for us too!!

yogicarl

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up (a guy) called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.

And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.

The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.

You have a good point there. I'll get back to you.

this is brilliant - people on MFP actually having dialog!

edit: my own quote corrected above (shown in brackets)

jonnythan

My cats are on a diet because they got fat. Just sayin.

Slrajr

Since we are discussing facts:

Veganism is not impossible without modern technology. No doubt it is made far more practical and accessible to broad population groups, but certainly not impossible.

Most true herbivores contain intestinal bacteria that aide in the production of B-12. That and they ingest some of their own feces which undergoes a kind of fermentation in their digestive tract. Both of which help them maintain vitamin levels.

So, obviously without these options humans are a little more limited. But, B-12 deficiency to the point of claiming a diet to be impossible would assume that there are no other sources for B-12 which would be incorrect.

If we want to make similar statements of half-truth, we could say that the worldwide incidence of heart disease is impossible without modern technology. Certainly historical populations were not able to consume such wanton amounts of animal products and saturated fats and this has been largely enabled by modern food production methods.

It also seems pretty obvious to point out that in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of things that deserve more anger and internet vitriol than veganism. Fast food, childhood obesity, factory farming, etc. Even as an imperfect response, veganism is ultimately a response to an imperfect system.

And not impossible without modern technology.

So what are the sources of sufficient dietary B12 that don't involve animal products or modern technology?

Please don't answer "dirt."

Although B12 can be found in fermented soya and seaweed products this is not recommended as a reliable source of B12 for vegans.

B12 is manufactured by micro-organisms in bacteria (especially that found in contaminated water and soil), fungi and algae.

Plant eating primates (such as gorillas) get enough B12 from eating insects that are inevitably found on the plants and fruit that they eat in the wild and from drinking water.

B12 is not manufactured by animals.

If you are fascinated with learning more about B12 I suggest that you do some research.

jonnythan

Since we are discussing facts:

Veganism is not impossible without modern technology. No doubt it is made far more practical and accessible to broad population groups, but certainly not impossible.

Most true herbivores contain intestinal bacteria that aide in the production of B-12. That and they ingest some of their own feces which undergoes a kind of fermentation in their digestive tract. Both of which help them maintain vitamin levels.

So, obviously without these options humans are a little more limited. But, B-12 deficiency to the point of claiming a diet to be impossible would assume that there are no other sources for B-12 which would be incorrect.

If we want to make similar statements of half-truth, we could say that the worldwide incidence of heart disease is impossible without modern technology. Certainly historical populations were not able to consume such wanton amounts of animal products and saturated fats and this has been largely enabled by modern food production methods.

It also seems pretty obvious to point out that in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of things that deserve more anger and internet vitriol than veganism. Fast food, childhood obesity, factory farming, etc. Even as an imperfect response, veganism is ultimately a response to an imperfect system.

And not impossible without modern technology.

So what are the sources of sufficient dietary B12 that don't involve animal products or modern technology?

Please don't answer "dirt."

Although B12 can be found in fermented soya and seaweed products this is not recommended as a reliable source of B12 for vegans.

B12 is manufactured by micro-organisms in bacteria (especially that found in contaminated water and soil), fungi and algae.

Plant eating primates (such as gorillas) get enough B12 from eating insects that are inevitably found on the plants and fruit that they eat in the wild and from drinking water.

B12 is not manufactured by animals.

If you are fascinated with learning more about B12 I suggest that you do some research.

Insects are animals, and therefore not a vegan source of B12.

So let me repeat my question:

What are the sources of sufficient dietary B12 that don't involve animal products or modern technology?

be_havens

It's not a deposition; I have other goals today aside from running down a full-scale report on extrapolated dietary data for B-12 availability in antiquity. "Impossible without modern technology" was a stand-out sentence and I wanted to amend it. If your hunger for knowledge is that extensive I suggest you hop on EBSCO or some equivalent.

Would veganism have been a sub-optimal diet during most of pre-industrial revolution human existence? Sure.
Were the vast majority of diets during human existence sub-optimal by modern standards? Absolutely.
Would veganism have been "impossible"? I doubt it.
Even in an omnivore diet, are there several or dozens of insufficiencies, vitamin and otherwise, that affected countless people across however many generations? Without a doubt.

I'm not arguing that everyone and their mom should and could have been vegan since the first people started walking on two legs. And I've stated more than once that modern veganism is without question enabled by the current landscape of food and available dietary options.

That being said, even I will admit that there are poorly-informed folks on both sides of the equation. Even some of the information floating around from the posters defending veganism is pretty rough around the edges, to put it nicely. Some of it is just wrong.

yogicarl

As more and more walking meat factories (cows, sheep - you know, animals you eat) are bred indoors with no access to soil borne vegetation, will we see a situation where either animals will need to be supplemented with B12 or animals cease to be a reliable source of B!2 for vegans and omnivores alike?

serenityhopefreedom

Woah, woah woah...
Since when was it not okay to eat NATURAL(god given, if you will) foods? I think, eating low fat is very beneficial. You're much less likely to get heart disease.
Im just going to state some facts..
We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST
We can simply get that & more from plant based foods( Such as leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, & much more)
B12 is found in SOIL. Meat eaters can have a B12 deficiency.
Animals that are torture & you eat their dead flesh..DOES affect you. Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there & your body is processing it VERY slowly. Also, studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.
Now, im not saying you shouldn't eat meat(your life, yah know)...but maybe opt for organic & eat WAAAY less red meat.....
Know where your food is coming from. PLEASE. Reasearch.
Get your animal products from a farm, where you can see how animals are treated
and eat less dairy, because it causes mucus(i know, before i went dairy free(due to allergy), i use to wake up every morning, coughing up gunk, having a runny or stuffed nose..but when i went dairy free..after a week, i didn't have any of that!)
Here's some links...
http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/how-much-protein-do-we-actually-need/
http://www.happycow.net/health-vitamins-B12.html
http://www.mandyparker.com/Digestive System And Poo.htm

The OP has one supporter! yeah, go you! Unfortunately this "supporter" has an ED so i would stay away from any advice here

Wow. My disordered habits, have NOTHING, to do with this. That's very low of you to say that. I've done research. & im not 'supporting' anyway, i was just stating my opinion, based on my knowledge.

BaconMD

Hey OP, I have been a vegetarian (close to a vegan diet - the occasional veggie pizza or egg breakfast sandwich while traveling being the rare exceptions) for almost a year now, and so far I physically feel far better than I did when I ate meat.

However, the first 100+lbs I lost was WHILE I was still eating meat. I should have been gaining weight that whole time, right?

No. Eating animals doesn't make you fat.

Nowadays, even without meat, I still eat LOTS of fat... Coconut oil, rice bran oil, olive oil, peanut oil... And nuts! Cashews this, walnuts that! Almond butter, peanut butter... Avocados. Lots and lots of fat - I'm often over 100g per day! I should be packing on the pounds, right?

Wrong. Fats don't make you fat.

Consuming more calories than you burn makes you fat.

We go through this crap every time some impressionable kid gets all fired up by a PeTA video. They buy into the hypocritical cult lies and start knocking on the virtual doors of members here and elsewhere, spreading their false doctrine.

Veganism shouldn't be a religion. Go and live your life. Eat what you want. Let others eat what they want.

yogicarl

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.

And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.

The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.

I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.

Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.

be_havens

Lol, this thread.

Don't take the internet too seriously. Best wishes to everyone and their dieting/life goals.

jonnythan

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.

And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.

The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.

I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.

Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.

I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:

zyxst

I used to worry about protein but realized very fast that protein is not something you need to worry about especially as a cyclist since cycling doesn't really require any muscle.

mabbzie

^^^^^^^ All of this is Vegan so you are saying that people can eat as much of this stuff as they want everyday and never gain weight because it's Vegan?

Oh my gosh, I knew about the Oreos... but ALL of this is vegan?!
Excuse me, this vegan is going to go get fat now. Later.

yogicarl

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.

And he no doubt supplements with B12 produced using modern technology.

The poster you quoted talked about vegans "in the past." People who didn't have access to B12 supplements.

I've thought on this and, while I'm not sure what tribe or peoples you are referring to when you say "the vegans" in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the East, because they were "........ slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.", I can only think you are referring to a people whose ethics or religion taught them to refrain from violence against any living thing - animal or human and so they would have hidden away from warring nations; vegan or not.

Doesn't mean their diet or ability to defend themselves was any better, but just my thoughts.

I have no idea what people that poster may have been trying to refer to :laugh:

Sorry - I'm not sure what you mean - I was getting back to you as I said I would. the only peoples I can think of who may have fled into the "mountains of the East" may have been Himalayan Buddhists - but wouldn't have been vegan; they would have at least drunk milk.

What peoples did you have in mind?