Dairy Alarmism

eric_sg61

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Animals aren't harmed during the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables?

neandermagnon

You can't fight faith with facts...

At least that made sense. And it's true. It's true of vegans and it's true of meatheads. It's true about people in general. Facts do very little to move people off their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. Of course, some are more open minded and less resistant to change than others.

As a matter of fact, people often become *more* entrenched in their incorrect beliefs when presented with facts which oppose their thinking. There's an interesting article here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/

It's been the subject of a lot of research lately.

I've noticed that about people, but I think it's because of how primate social systems operate, and the fact that humans seem to use verbal arguments as a means to establish themselves in the social hierarchy, rather like how gorillas use chest beating, and that humans won't back down or admit that they're wrong, because that's akin to letting the other human be dominant over you.

Here's a blog post I wrote about it: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/why-cant-humans-just-disagree-nicely/

TheGymGypsy

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Animals aren't harmed during the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables?

What do you think I should eat then? I'm open to suggestions. I try to make food choices that do the LEAST harm.

nikkihk

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Animals aren't harmed during the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables?

Of course not, they politely ask the animals and insects to move out of the way long before the tractors roll though.... yeah.

nikkihk

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Animals aren't harmed during the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables?

What do you think I should eat then? I'm open to suggestions. I try to make food choices that do the LEAST harm.

According to this, you probably shouldn't breath really... killing too many organisms.

jim180155

What do you think I should eat then? I'm open to suggestions. I try to make food choices that do the LEAST harm.

That's sort of what I do. I now each just a small fraction of the meat and dairy I used to consume. There are still animals suffering on my behalf, but there are far fewer animals suffering than there used to be.

jim180155

I've noticed that about people, but I think it's because of how primate social systems operate, and the fact that humans seem to use verbal arguments as a means to establish themselves in the social hierarchy, rather like how gorillas use chest beating, and that humans won't back down or admit that they're wrong, because that's akin to letting the other human be dominant over you.

Here's a blog post I wrote about it: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/why-cant-humans-just-disagree-nicely/

I think most of the time it's a matter of people not knowing they're wrong. Most of the time it's not that they know they're wrong and won't admit it, the problem is that they still think they're right, and no amount of reason or evidence can or will convince them otherwise.

susannamarie

I've noticed that about people, but I think it's because of how primate social systems operate, and the fact that humans seem to use verbal arguments as a means to establish themselves in the social hierarchy, rather like how gorillas use chest beating, and that humans won't back down or admit that they're wrong, because that's akin to letting the other human be dominant over you.

Here's a blog post I wrote about it: http://cavepeopleandstuff.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/why-cant-humans-just-disagree-nicely/

I think most of the time it's a matter of people not knowing they're wrong. Most of the time it's not that they know they're wrong and won't admit it, the problem is that they still think they're right, and no amount of reason or evidence can or will convince them otherwise.

But I don't think that your two viewpoints are necessarily that different. It's that they *can't* know they're wrong, because their subconscious won't let them know it. So they're wrong, and they don't realize it, because subconsciously they throw out any contrary evidence so they don't have to admit it.

tigersword

Somebody should be able to post an opposing view in here without all the personal crap. If you disagree, say so and say why, but don't attack the person just because she has a different opinion. (Again, not you, Richard. You've approached it strictly from the facts and refuted those. That's the way it should work.)

I'm mostly just reading along (although I did make a silly comment upthread) and I'm still trying to feel out the personality/culture of these forums, but I didn't see a personal attack here at all.

A poster said some reasonable stuff (if you want to drink milk, do; if not, don't), but then went on to make three less reasonable arguments. Specifically, (1) you don't have to drink milk to be healthy, which is of course true, but non-responsive in that no one had claimed differently*; (2) some stuff about BigDairy and ads, which again seems unrelated to the point being debated, which is whether dairy is unhealthy for all people or not; and (3) the hormone claim.

Some people just dismissed the comment as a whole. Yeah, that's not particularly substantive, but it's not personal--it's basically pointing out that the claim--and it's worth noting that it was a factual claim, not just an opinion (like I don't like dairy or all dairy seems to me unethical)--in question is unsupported. I actually haven't noticed anyone attacking people for expressing opinions, but only attacks on factual claims or on stuff like "it's not natural." Aren't those kinds of statements fair game?

Anyway, I'm fascinated by this discussion because of how little it's focused on the health argument against dairy, which I've yet to see particularly well defended (which doesn't mean it can't be). I guess I'm also sort of fascinated by the whole natural=good and then efforts to define natural in ways that fit one's intuitions about what's good. I get it, as I also have to catch myself from kneejerking to natural is better type positions that are irrational when considered more carefully, but so far I've just seem them asserted here and not any interest from those who assert them in an analysis of whether they really make sense.

*A possibly weird pet peeve of mine is people arguing against things that have never been claimed, as it always strikes me as an intentional misstatement of the opposing argument.

That's a valid pet peeve. It's a logical fallacy called ignoratio elenchi, or irrelevant conclusion. Also known as a red herring.

Natmarie73

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. How is the dairy industry cruel and abusive? Not trying to roll, but genuinely interested in learning more as I have not read or heard anything about dairy cruelty where I live.

I'm in Australia and there are lots of dairly farms near where I live and a big dairy industry further south. I always see fat cows with their calves grazing in lush green paddocks waiting to get milked. Is it different in your country? I only eat free range and organic chicken, eggs and pork because of the cruel farming practises used in that industry such as sow stalls, caged chickens etc etc but as far as I know this does not happen in our dairy industry?

That said, I only consume organic, raw and grassfed dairy mainly because it tastes so much better than the conventional stuff and I don't like the thought of drinking hormones and antibiotics.

QueenBishOTUniverse

Ok too many people making too many points for me to keep up with all of them so here's my additions to the discussion as I'm catching up.

1. I eat organic/grass fed/free range etc. whenever possible. No, I'm not going to give up dairy meat eggs, because I don't think there's any need to. I DO think that encouraging these industries to be more responsible through financial incentive is a better long term solution then outright boycott. The dairy industry isn't going anywhere, I personally feel I can do more good supporting groups/companies that are TRYING to do the right thing then just throwing the entire industry out the window. That's just me, if you've decided that for your own sense of morals, it's better to eliminate, go for it, that's you're choice, but please don't act like I'm some inhumane monster because I don't see the situation the same way you do.

2. Fighting against beliefs never works. I don't participate in threads like this to try and change the mind of someone entrenched in their beliefs, especially if I've already had that conversation with them once. I'm done with the conversation, moving on. Overcoming cognitive dissonance in an intelligent individual is a ground breaking/earth shattering event. Nothing I say on this thread is going to cause that. However, there are plenty of people out there for whom this issue is NOT a matter of a belief, but simply a curiosity or even just a matter of a long held misconception. Putting out accurate, evidenced based information is for them.

I'm sure there are at least ten other points I wanted to make, but I've forgotten all of them by now and need to get home, oh well...

veganbettie

If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.

Any industry or business nowadays advertises and pushes their product in a certain way. It's up to the informed consumer to see through the hyperbole.

And the whole "cow's milk is for baby cows" thing has been done to death in this thread already. No one food (with the possible exception of mother's milk) was designed or intended or whatever for humans. We eat whatever gives us sustenance. And some things, like broccoli and kale and bananas and almonds and cows, we tweak through breeding to make them tastier, higher yielding etc.

But yes - bottom line is we do have a choice. Thanks to modern farming, agribusiness, refrigeration, transportation etc we can be a raw vegan year round in comfort, if that is what we chose, and be quite healthy. Or, we can drink milk and eat beef and still be healthy.

Exactly. Ads are meant to entice the consumer to buy a product. Dairy is a business and they want to make a profit, simple as that. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go out and buy everything I see in every commercial.

This is true, and I get that, all companies need to advertise and it's up to you to make a well informed decision....my issue is when the companies bleed into other areas of life....

When I was pregnant and went into my doctors office she handed me pamphlets to read about staying healthy during pregnancy and so on and so forth, and of course it talks about dairy and meats because obviously the majority of people eat that, whatever, I can ignore that, I'm pretty well versed in vegan nutrition, but you turn the page over and it was made and distributed by the Dairy Farms of America (or some such organization).

That really rubbed me the wrong way. I can't really put into words WHY it upset me....but it did..... There is a specific word for this kind of thing.....

I don't believe dairy is that great for the human body, it's not something I put into my body, nor is it something I will feed my child. But it's also not arsenic. I eat stuff that's not good for me all the time. The reason I don't eat dairy is because of the industry.

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susannamarie

When I was pregnant and went into my doctors office she handed me pamphlets to read about staying healthy during pregnancy and so on and so forth, and of course it talks about dairy and meats because obviously the majority of people eat that, whatever, I can ignore that, I'm pretty well versed in vegan nutrition, but you turn the page over and it was made and distributed by the Dairy Farms of America (or some such organization).

You know, I have no problem with this -- but I would also have no problem with distributing a "how to have a healthy vegan pregnancy" pamphlet created by PETA or a similar organization in the same place.

veganbettie

When I was pregnant and went into my doctors office she handed me pamphlets to read about staying healthy during pregnancy and so on and so forth, and of course it talks about dairy and meats because obviously the majority of people eat that, whatever, I can ignore that, I'm pretty well versed in vegan nutrition, but you turn the page over and it was made and distributed by the Dairy Farms of America (or some such organization).

You know, I have no problem with this -- but I would also have no problem with distributing a "how to have a healthy vegan pregnancy" pamphlet created by PETA or a similar organization in the same place.

I think what gets me is that it sort of implies that the only way to have a healthy pregnancy is by consuming those things. But if there was another pamphlet created by another company about healthy vegan pregnancies it would likely erase my unease, but there wasn't.

A lot of vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat during their pregnancy (to each their own) because they don't have great information.

Rocbola

When I was pregnant and went into my doctors office she handed me pamphlets to read about staying healthy during pregnancy and so on and so forth, and of course it talks about dairy and meats because obviously the majority of people eat that, whatever, I can ignore that, I'm pretty well versed in vegan nutrition, but you turn the page over and it was made and distributed by the Dairy Farms of America (or some such organization).

And this is why so many are confused. The big food companies, (Not just dairy) have too much mis-info masquerading as legitimate nutritional advice.

BrainyBurro

i think living your life in fear that there is some grandiose governmental or corporate conspiracy lurking around each corner, intentionally trying to kill you while simultaneously taking all of your money, is both very sad and very paranoid.

susannamarie

I think what gets me is that it sort of implies that the only way to have a healthy pregnancy is by consuming those things. But if there was another pamphlet created by another company about healthy vegan pregnancies it would likely erase my unease, but there wasn't.

A lot of vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat during their pregnancy (to each their own) because they don't have great information.

You know, I'm sure someone has a pamphlet on that. I know that this -- http://www.pcrm.org/search/?cid=262 -- is downloadable, but I'm thinking more about a professionally published pamphlet distributed free of charge to physicians.

If they don't, they should, because quite honestly, the doctor is probably just distributing whatever comes to them free.

SunofaBeach14

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Animals aren't harmed during the harvesting of fruits, grains and vegetables?

What do you think I should eat then? I'm open to suggestions. I try to make food choices that do the LEAST harm.

According to this, you probably shouldn't breath really... killing too many organisms.

It's good to be the ultimate apex predator. Of course, if a few people want to play sheep that's their business. I couldn't care less.

veganbettie

I think what gets me is that it sort of implies that the only way to have a healthy pregnancy is by consuming those things. But if there was another pamphlet created by another company about healthy vegan pregnancies it would likely erase my unease, but there wasn't.

A lot of vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat during their pregnancy (to each their own) because they don't have great information.

You know, I'm sure someone has a pamphlet on that. I know that this -- http://www.pcrm.org/search/?cid=262 -- is downloadable, but I'm thinking more about a professionally published pamphlet distributed free of charge to physicians.

If they don't, they should, because quite honestly, the doctor is probably just distributing whatever comes to them free.

Thank you, you're probably right. Maybe I should get them some. Didn't help that my baby doctor was very old school, and limited on nutrition knowledge, but I guess when you're looking at vaginas all day you don't need to know much about soy and kale.

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Showcase_Brodown

Wow, I've been keeping an eye on my thread-baby. She's grown up fast. Lots of discussion happening.

For those of you morally opposed to dairy for whatever reason, that's certainly a valid reason to avoid it, even if I don't necessarily agree. I can respect that.

I don't think I've ever really seen a good argument for why dairy or milk is harmful to the general population. Obviously intolerances happen, but I just don't see anything factual that supports the idea that dairy is harmful.

There's quite a spread of things we can point our fingers at: hormones, antibiotics, casein's supposed cancer connection, fat, exorphins, etc. But the support for any of the things on the long laundry list of problems really seem to come up short. For now. Obviously new studies come around that shed light on a subject.

Maybe I am guilty of starting this thread just confirm what I think I already know, but hopefully if there is a good argument for why dairy is a concern, I'll listen.

susannamarie

With specific respect to the hormones, more and more farmers are shifting away from using them. The reason is that they really aren't good for the health of the cow -- mastitis prevalence is higher, especially sub-clinical mastitis (which makes the somatic cell count higher, costing the farmer in quality premiums), they don't seem to re-breed as readily, they lose condition more easily -- in general, for most cases they aren't worth it. Furthermore, many milk companies offer BST-free milk. If you want hormone-free milk, you can get it.

stiobhard

Dr Michael Klaper an anaesthesiologist who writes about the vegan diet and is a collaborator with john robbins who wrote diet for a new america, gave a lecture i once saw, saying the nutritional content of milk defeats the calcium within it, and will actual work towards stripping the calcium out of your bones. There are also issues with the hormones given to cows to make them overproduce that remain present in milk. but the main issue is that cows milk is meant for a much larger animal than humans and can be detrimental over the long run. Thats the gist of what I remember.

As I vegetarian I have an issue with milk and most other dairy products: cheese and so on... because in most cases they include meat additives like rennet and fish oil... so it seems like apart from a nutritional issue, it just does not fit into the parameters of my diet.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Nutrition-M-D-Michael-Klaper/dp/0929274237

SunofaBeach14

Dr Michael Klaper an anaesthesiologist who writes about the vegan diet and is a collaborator with john robbins who wrote diet for a new america, gave a lecture i once saw, saying the nutritional content of milk defeats the calcium within it, and will actual work towards stripping the calcium out of your bones. There are also issues with the hormones given to cows to make them overproduce that remain present in milk. but the main issue is that cows milk is meant for a much larger animal than humans and can be detrimental over the long run. Thats the gist of what I remember.

As I vegetarian I have an issue with milk and most other dairy products: cheese and so on... because in most cases they include meat additives like rennet and fish oil... so it seems like apart from a nutritional issue, it just does not fit into the parameters of my diet.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Nutrition-M-D-Michael-Klaper/dp/0929274237

Or you could ignore the quacks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22081694/

If you have a moral issue, that is your business, and that's fine, but stop making up silly stories to defend your position.

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SunofaBeach14

Dr Michael Klaper an anaesthesiologist who writes about the vegan diet and is a collaborator with john robbins who wrote diet for a new america, gave a lecture i once saw, saying the nutritional content of milk defeats the calcium within it, and will actual work towards stripping the calcium out of your bones. There are also issues with the hormones given to cows to make them overproduce that remain present in milk. but the main issue is that cows milk is meant for a much larger animal than humans and can be detrimental over the long run. Thats the gist of what I remember.

As I vegetarian I have an issue with milk and most other dairy products: cheese and so on... because in most cases they include meat additives like rennet and fish oil... so it seems like apart from a nutritional issue, it just does not fit into the parameters of my diet.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Nutrition-M-D-Michael-Klaper/dp/0929274237

Or you could ignore the quacks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22081694/

If you have a moral issue, that is your business, and that's fine, but stop making up silly stories to defend your position.

What specifically makes Dr. Klaper a quack? Evidence of malpractice? Dr. Klaper is a very good doctor, and has been in his field since before i was born. His patients heal.

I agree with your advice to "ignore the quacks", though. That's why i put so much more stock into what legitimate doctors say, and not too much into what people on forums say.

^ The bolded part. That makes him a quack.

craftywitch_63

Dr Michael Klaper an anaesthesiologist who writes about the vegan diet and is a collaborator with john robbins who wrote diet for a new america, gave a lecture i once saw, saying the nutritional content of milk defeats the calcium within it, and will actual work towards stripping the calcium out of your bones. There are also issues with the hormones given to cows to make them overproduce that remain present in milk. but the main issue is that cows milk is meant for a much larger animal than humans and can be detrimental over the long run. Thats the gist of what I remember.

As I vegetarian I have an issue with milk and most other dairy products: cheese and so on... because in most cases they include meat additives like rennet and fish oil... so it seems like apart from a nutritional issue, it just does not fit into the parameters of my diet.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Nutrition-M-D-Michael-Klaper/dp/0929274237

Or you could ignore the quacks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22081694/

If you have a moral issue, that is your business, and that's fine, but stop making up silly stories to defend your position.

What specifically makes Dr. Klaper a quack? Evidence of malpractice? Dr. Klaper is a very good doctor, and has been in his field since before i was born. His patients heal.

I agree with your advice to "ignore the quacks", though. That's why i put so much more stock into what legitimate doctors say, and not too much into what people on forums say.

^ The bolded part. That makes him a quack.

Yeah, sorry. That whole "milk protein leeches calcium out of bones" thing is bogus. It was debunked years ago. Many cheeses are made without rennet (I know because I use them - the idea of rennet makes me gag.)

From webmd:
Osteoporosis Diet Danger 4: Is Protein Problematic?

The idea that protein, particularly animal protein, is problematic for bones is a myth, says bone researcher Jane Kerstetter, PhD, RD, professor of nutrition at the University of Connecticut. "Protein does not dissolve bone. Just the opposite."

Bones are about 50% protein. Bone repair requires a steady stream of dietary amino acids, the building blocks of body proteins.

"Adequate calcium and vitamin D cast a protective net around bones, but protein comes in a close second," Kerstetter says.

http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/living-with-osteoporosis-7/diet-dangers?page=2

I'm not sure how Dr. Klaper being an anesthesiologist equates to his expertise in nutrition. Anesthesiologists put people to sleep, they don't feed them. I'm not against veganism, and I am a lacto-vegetarian myself, that's why I know about vegetarian cheeses; I'm against erroneous information passed off as truth just to justify a position designed to make someone (read: Dr. Klaper) rich.

autovatic

Without diving too much into the debate (personally, I consume dairy) it's interesting to note that lactase persistence (the ability to digest lactose into adulthood) was heavily selected for in early human populations, coinciding with the development of cattle domestication. This was presumably because it conferred a pretty big advantage nutritionally.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672153/

So, genetically speaking, unless you're part of several African/Asian populations, you're probably geared toward dairy consumption.

RGv2

This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

Taking a crazy guess here.... You've never been on a dairy farm, have you?