Dairy Alarmism
Replies
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Why you guys picking on hormones..........plants have hormones too.....
phytoestrogens are all natural and good, while environmental estrogens (manmade compounds) which often have much lower affinity for the estrogen receptor (very promiscuous receptor anyway) are ALWAYS bad...0 -
If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
:laugh:
Yeah.
Recombinant Bovine Somatotropin (rBST) (also called simply growth hormone, or GH) is used to increase milk production, and can be found to some extent in milk. The milk of cows not treated with the recombinant protein show low levels of the endogenous protein. BUT this protein is destroyed by the pasturization process and by digestion (as any protein is) in the gut.
Further, even if some did make it into the blood system (where it would need to be to cause any possible effects) it has been shown that bovine growth hormone does not bind to human growth hormone receptors meaning it would have no physiological effect on humans.
Here is a blog post about this (it has references too if you want to dig further): http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2012/06/19/growth-hormones-in-milk-mythfact/0 -
Well said.If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
Nonsense...
Not really. It made perfect sense to me. I didn't agree with everything she said, but I understood every word. If you two would like me to read it to you, maybe you too could understand and then decide whether you agree or not.
Absolute nonsense...0 -
MMMMMMM, that big glass of milk after my run was awesome! Seriously, perfect balance of carbs fats and proteins for recharging my system. Lucky for me I'm not allergic and my body produces it's own lactase, so there's absolutely no good reason to avoid it.
but dairy is a death sentence!
Well you know, none of us are getting off the planet alive anyway!
I am! I'm going to go to Mars!0 -
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Absolutely well said.
Well said.If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
Nonsense...
Not really. It made perfect sense to me. I didn't agree with everything she said, but I understood every word. If you two would like me to read it to you, maybe you too could understand and then decide whether you agree or not.
Absolute nonsense... 0 -
With that attitude, what's keeping you from getting into drugs? I'm not advocating that! I'm just saying that we can make choices that about what we put into our bodies, and those choices effect our lives, more than we realize during the pleasurable moment of ingestionMMMMMMM, that big glass of milk after my run was awesome! Seriously, perfect balance of carbs fats and proteins for recharging my system. Lucky for me I'm not allergic and my body produces it's own lactase, so there's absolutely no good reason to avoid it.
but dairy is a death sentence!
Well you know, none of us are getting off the planet alive anyway!0 -
I don't eat much meat, so to get to my goal of 150g of protein a day, I eat a lot of dairy. Not much milk, but eggs, yogurt, cheeses. Every day. No dairy intolerances (I've been tested).0
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If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
Conspiracies are everywhere! I think we're all big enough to figure advertising out and buy accordingly. By the way--do you eat eggs? You know you are eating unborn chickens?0 -
People criticize the ones that preach moderation and calories in calories out by calling us closed minded but this the absolute perfect example of someone being closed minded. Block anyone that doesn't agree with you and praise the ones that do while taking shots at the other group.Well, Richard, we may not see eye to eye on diet, but you are one of the smart ones on here. Thanks for the discourse.
Talk about being so brainwashed that you can't even have a thought out debate with the opposition because your views have validity and opening yourself up for debate risks being exposed for shopping you really are, a blind believer.
You can't fight faith with facts...0 -
Well said.If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
Nonsense...
Not really. It made perfect sense to me. I didn't agree with everything she said, but I understood every word. If you two would like me to read it to you, maybe you too could understand and then decide whether you agree or not.
Just because words are strung together to form cohesive sentences doesn't mean that something isn't nonsense, you know?
But, as I feel like I am picking on the poster who made this original statement, and I don't mean to, I do want to say that I agree that milk/dairy are not required for life, and one can certainly chose to not consume them if one so wants. I simply think that people can only make informed choices if they have the correct facts.0 -
I love dairy and eat tons of it. I feel great, I look good, my blood work is excellent, my doctor says I am lean, fit and very healthy. Why would I give up something I love eating so much because of articles on the internet?
For every article that says dairy is bad, I'm sure there is one that touts dairy's health benefits.0 -
You can't fight faith with facts...
At least that made sense. And it's true. It's true of vegans and it's true of meatheads. It's true about people in general. Facts do very little to move people off their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. Of course, some are more open minded and less resistant to change than others.0 -
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You can't fight faith with facts...
At least that made sense. And it's true. It's true of vegans and it's true of meatheads. It's true about people in general. Facts do very little to move people off their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. Of course, some are more open minded and less resistant to change than others.
As a matter of fact, people often become *more* entrenched in their incorrect beliefs when presented with facts which oppose their thinking. There's an interesting article here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
It's been the subject of a lot of research lately.0 -
Well said.If you dont want to eat Dairy Dont eat Dairy. If you want to gobble it up! Personally i have come to my own conclusion that Milk is not necessary and i choose not to consume it anymore. Its for baby cows not humans. The only little bit of dairy i eat is mozzarella once and a while. but i am working on no Dairy at all.. its a choice to make by yourself. I personally believe that Milk has been advertised and push on us saying well if you dont drink milk you wont get enought calcium. its all political and money driven. They dont want people to stop drinking milk becuase people make alot of money from the Milk industry. anyways its a personal choice. if you are drinking regular USDA Milk you are drinking hormones. if you are ok with that, thats your choice.
Nonsense...
Not really. It made perfect sense to me. I didn't agree with everything she said, but I understood every word. If you two would like me to read it to you, maybe you too could understand and then decide whether you agree or not.
Just because words are strung together to form cohesive sentences doesn't mean that something isn't nonsense, you know?
But, as I feel like I am picking on the poster who made this original statement, and I don't mean to, I do want to say that I agree that milk/dairy are not required for life, and one can certainly chose to not consume them if one so wants. I simply think that people can only make informed choices if they have the correct facts.
I don't think you were picking on her. It bugs me when I see the other guys piling on though. It's like a bunch of grade school bullies in here.
Somebody should be able to post an opposing view in here without all the personal crap. If you disagree, say so and say why, but don't attack the person just because she has a different opinion. (Again, not you, Richard. You've approached it strictly from the facts and refuted those. That's the way it should work.)0 -
You can't fight faith with facts...
At least that made sense. And it's true. It's true of vegans and it's true of meatheads. It's true about people in general. Facts do very little to move people off their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. Of course, some are more open minded and less resistant to change than others.
As a matter of fact, people often become *more* entrenched in their incorrect beliefs when presented with facts which oppose their thinking. There's an interesting article here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
It's been the subject of a lot of research lately.
It took me a long time to figure that out, but I have to agree with you 100%.0 -
You can't fight faith with facts...
At least that made sense. And it's true. It's true of vegans and it's true of meatheads. It's true about people in general. Facts do very little to move people off their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. Of course, some are more open minded and less resistant to change than others.
As a matter of fact, people often become *more* entrenched in their incorrect beliefs when presented with facts which oppose their thinking. There's an interesting article here: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/
It's been the subject of a lot of research lately.
Michael Shermer had a special section in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things" on why SMART people believe weird things... basically they are very good at constructing rationales for themselves on why they believe what they believe (to avoid the cognitive dissonance) and so it becomes even harder to reason them out of it. Throw in a healthy dose of Dunning Kruger and a dollop of confirmation bias and there you go.
ETA: Kruger, not the grocery store.0 -
I don't think you were picking on her. It bugs me when I see the other guys piling on though. It's like a bunch of grade school bullies in here.
Somebody should be able to post an opposing view in here without all the personal crap. If you disagree, say so and say why, but don't attack the person just because she has a different opinion. (Again, not you, Richard. You've approached it strictly from the facts and refuted those. That's the way it should work.)
I'm only pointing this out as I'd actually like to read some scientific articles about the unhealthfulness of dairy, but all the actual scientific links provided in this debate are articles that seem to support dairy being a useful and beneficial food source.
Again, you learn best from people you don't agree with, and I would LOVE to read some peer reviewed articles that go against what consensus of that science that I've read has lead me to agree with.0 -
Michael Shermer had a special section in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things" on why SMART people believe weird things... basically they are very good at constructing rationales for themselves on why they believe what they believe (to avoid the cognitive dissonance) and so it becomes even harder to reason them out of it. Throw in a healthy dose of Dunning Kroger and a dollop of confirmation bias and there you go.
Furthermore, a lot of the smart people whom I have met were so very used to being correct that they simply couldn't fathom the idea that they might be mistaken. They're used to being the person who corrects everyone else, including the teacher.0 -
With that attitude, what's keeping you from getting into drugs? I'm not advocating that! I'm just saying that we can make choices that about what we put into our bodies, and those choices effect our lives, more than we realize during the pleasurable moment of ingestionMMMMMMM, that big glass of milk after my run was awesome! Seriously, perfect balance of carbs fats and proteins for recharging my system. Lucky for me I'm not allergic and my body produces it's own lactase, so there's absolutely no good reason to avoid it.
but dairy is a death sentence!
Well you know, none of us are getting off the planet alive anyway!
Juuuust out of curiosity (so I know what to avoid)... What exactly are you putting in your body that's making you so ridiculous?0 -
http://www.simplyshredded.com/qa-with-nutrition-expert-alan-aragon-milk.html
Q&A With Nutrition Expert Alan Aragon: Milk
Nutrition expert Alan Aragon, who’s responding to claims that milk isn’t good for you. Alan is what I call a common sense nutritionist. He combines science and the real-world experience of his clients to create his recommendations, and also takes every case individually. Here, he tackles the arguments that “milk doesn’t contribute to bone health,” and that “we shouldn’t be drinking it because it comes from another species.”
Argument #1: If milk is so great, why is it that America has such a high rate of osteoperosis?
There are many factors. Osteoporosis is a multi-factorial disease. Implying that milk consumption has failed to eradicate osteoporosis in the US is like saying fruit and vegetables consumption has failed to eradicate cancer. Shouldn’t eating your five-a-day “save it?” Not necessarily, but it can certainly hedge your bets against it–IF and only if a host other beneficial lifestyle habits are maintained. There’s always a mix of genetic and environmental factors that interplay in the manifestation of diseases like osteoporosis.
It’s commonly thought that a high protein intake contributes to osteoporosis as well, but can we sit here and blame protein consumption?
Let me add a little wrinkle here for you to chew on: calcium and protein work synergistically to strengthen bones. It’s not a matter of calcium being ineffective, it’s a matter of making sure its cofactors and synergists are present in adequate amounts in the diet. Adequate amounts of cofactors & synergists, sad to say, is not a common characteristic of the American diet. No wonder population studies give mixed results.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Something that needs to be cleared up here is this… If you’re gonna mention population research to support an anti-milk stance, consider the inherent lack of control of the universe of variables involved. There’s a nearly infinite set of monkey wrenches (or “confounders” as scientists call them) that makes the epidemiological data roughly an even split between saying milk is good for bone health and milk does nothing at all.
However, the story changes drastically when you look at randomized controlled trials (RCTs). All types of research have their strengths and weaknesses. Epidemiological research is an attempt to spot potential correlations amidst an ocean of variables. In contrast, experimental research in the form of RCTs attempts to suppress the possibility of all other variables messing with the determination of two variables: the cause, and the effect. In contrast to the mixed bag of population data, nearly 100% of the RCTs on milk intake and bone health show a positive effect. Same story with calcium’s positive effect on bone.
Funding bias?
And then comes the question of funding source. Are Dairy Council dollars really that good at keeping the overwhelming majority of RCTs in favor of milk for improving bone integrity? If it were true, then we’d at least see a reasonable set of independently-funded experimental data consistently showing that the Dairy Council is wrong. Too bad it doesn’t exist. And keep in mind that the dairy industry doesn’t have its political talons sunk into every peer-reviewed journal, so there’s actually plenty of room for opposing results if they indeed could be derived without the bias. You would think that after decades of *****ing over industry bias, staunch anti-milk groups would be able to pool together the resources to spawn at least a small handful well-controlled experimental trials that consistently support their agenda and amusing position that milk does not do the human skeleton good. Nope, hasn’t happened.
Argument #2: Milk (or cow babyfood) has a different composition compared to human milk. Different nutirents for different species.
Hypocrisy versus individual tolerance. I love it when I hear folks say that human adults weren’t meant to consume milk, much less the milk derived from a different animal species. Are you kidding me? So who gets to decide which parts of the cow we should consume? Let me get this straight–we can eat the cow’s muscles, but not the milk that laid the foundation for the growth of those same muscles? Huh? The logic is just too rock-solid for me. Folks who carry the torch against milk consumption typically will have some degree of allergy or digestive intolerance to it, and they take the liberty to project their personal problems onto the world around them. Many of these same “health-minded” people consume whey protein by the tubload –and this is not only a milk product, but an engineered refined milk product to boot. I suggest you raise a salute to cow’s teats the next time you flex your muscles, and let the rest of us enjoy our milk in peace.0 -
Michael Shermer had a special section in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things" on why SMART people believe weird things... basically they are very good at constructing rationales for themselves on why they believe what they believe (to avoid the cognitive dissonance) and so it becomes even harder to reason them out of it. Throw in a healthy dose of Dunning Kroger and a dollop of confirmation bias and there you go.
Have you read Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind? (If not, I think you'd like it.) According to Haidt, the more educated you are, the more prone you are to rationalize beliefs, although we all do it to some extent. Our lizard brain reacts within a fraction of a second to issues we have made into moral issues, things like political, religious, or family issues. Our rational brain then tells us why we believe what we believe.
Note: I may have added something from another book in there, but I think it's all Haidt.0 -
Michael Shermer had a special section in his book "Why People Believe Weird Things" on why SMART people believe weird things... basically they are very good at constructing rationales for themselves on why they believe what they believe (to avoid the cognitive dissonance) and so it becomes even harder to reason them out of it. Throw in a healthy dose of Dunning Kroger and a dollop of confirmation bias and there you go.
Have you read Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind? (If not, I think you'd like it.) According to Haidt, the more educated you are, the more prone you are to rationalize beliefs, although we all do it to some extent. Our lizard brain reacts within a fraction of a second to issues we have made into moral issues, things like political, religious, or family issues. Our rational brain then tells us why we believe what we believe.
Note: I may have added something from another book in there, but I think it's all Haidt.
Don't think I've read that one, but I do remember maybe reading about it, or something similar! I'll look into it, thanks! Have to leave now, so thanks for the chat, y'all!0 -
This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.
With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.0 -
This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.
With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. Although this goes for eggs and meat too. Health factors aside, this is all I need to stay away from the stuff.
Honestly though, I have a lot of respect for abstaining from meat/dairy because of the industry's practice/treatment toward animals. That's standing up for your beliefs, and you go girl.
Untrue bro science on the other hand.... :noway:0 -
I don't think you were picking on her. It bugs me when I see the other guys piling on though. It's like a bunch of grade school bullies in here.
Somebody should be able to post an opposing view in here without all the personal crap. If you disagree, say so and say why, but don't attack the person just because she has a different opinion. (Again, not you, Richard. You've approached it strictly from the facts and refuted those. That's the way it should work.)
I'm only pointing this out as I'd actually like to read some scientific articles about the unhealthfulness of dairy, but all the actual scientific links provided in this debate are articles that seem to support dairy being a useful and beneficial food source.
Again, you learn best from people you don't agree with, and I would LOVE to read some peer reviewed articles that go against what consensus of that science that I've read has lead me to agree with.
John, I don't have any links or articles for you, but you'll find a lot of what you're looking for in The China Study by T.Colin Campbell.
<ducking>
Campbell has been involved in a lot of research using casein, the protein from milk, and found high correlations and probable cause between moderately high levels of casein and cancer, diabetes, dementia, etc. Campbell concluded that animal protein in general is the cause, but most of his work used casein in particular.
It's a good read, and almost* convincing.
* I was convinced enough to turn vegan for three months. Then it wore off and I added meat and dairy back into my diet.0 -
This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.
With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. Although this goes for eggs and meat too. Health factors aside, this is all I need to stay away from the stuff.
Honestly though, I have a lot of respect for abstaining from meat/dairy because of the industry's practice/treatment toward animals. That's standing up for your beliefs, and you go girl.
Untrue bro science on the other hand.... :noway:
I'd also like to add that I have nothing against people that consume dairy/ meat/ eggs. It's a lot to sacrifice for most people, so I don't expect them to. It's a personal choice, and I would never try to force it on anyone.0 -
Somebody should be able to post an opposing view in here without all the personal crap. If you disagree, say so and say why, but don't attack the person just because she has a different opinion. (Again, not you, Richard. You've approached it strictly from the facts and refuted those. That's the way it should work.)
I'm mostly just reading along (although I did make a silly comment upthread) and I'm still trying to feel out the personality/culture of these forums, but I didn't see a personal attack here at all.
A poster said some reasonable stuff (if you want to drink milk, do; if not, don't), but then went on to make three less reasonable arguments. Specifically, (1) you don't have to drink milk to be healthy, which is of course true, but non-responsive in that no one had claimed differently*; (2) some stuff about BigDairy and ads, which again seems unrelated to the point being debated, which is whether dairy is unhealthy for all people or not; and (3) the hormone claim.
Some people just dismissed the comment as a whole. Yeah, that's not particularly substantive, but it's not personal--it's basically pointing out that the claim--and it's worth noting that it was a factual claim, not just an opinion (like I don't like dairy or all dairy seems to me unethical)--in question is unsupported. I actually haven't noticed anyone attacking people for expressing opinions, but only attacks on factual claims or on stuff like "it's not natural." Aren't those kinds of statements fair game?
Anyway, I'm fascinated by this discussion because of how little it's focused on the health argument against dairy, which I've yet to see particularly well defended (which doesn't mean it can't be). I guess I'm also sort of fascinated by the whole natural=good and then efforts to define natural in ways that fit one's intuitions about what's good. I get it, as I also have to catch myself from kneejerking to natural is better type positions that are irrational when considered more carefully, but so far I've just seem them asserted here and not any interest from those who assert them in an analysis of whether they really make sense.
*A possibly weird pet peeve of mine is people arguing against things that have never been claimed, as it always strikes me as an intentional misstatement of the opposing argument.0 -
This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.
With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.
:yawn:0
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