Why are carbs so bad?

RonSwanson66

Keto diet isn't about achieving faster weightloss, it's about keeping your muscles intact while you lose the weight.

Ketosis doesn't help with this, sufficient protein and weight training does.

Correct, which if you are doing Keto correctly you should be getting. Keto's main focus is to burn fat before other sources of energy though. Goal is to burn the fat before the muscle. Which isn't even what the Keto diet was originally designed for but from most fitness perspectives it is the end goal now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

So why do you think keto has an advantage over an isocaloric, protein-matched diet with higher carbs and lower fat?

(Hint: it doesn't)

lockef

Keto diet isn't about achieving faster weightloss, it's about keeping your muscles intact while you lose the weight.

Ketosis doesn't help with this, sufficient protein and weight training does.

Correct, which if you are doing Keto correctly you should be getting. Keto's main focus is to burn fat before other sources of energy though. Goal is to burn the fat before the muscle. Which isn't even what the Keto diet was originally designed for but from most fitness perspectives it is the end goal now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

So why do you think keto has an advantage over an isocaloric, protein-matched diet with higher carbs and lower fat?

Appetite suppression

RonSwanson66

Keto diet isn't about achieving faster weightloss, it's about keeping your muscles intact while you lose the weight.

Ketosis doesn't help with this, sufficient protein and weight training does.

Correct, which if you are doing Keto correctly you should be getting. Keto's main focus is to burn fat before other sources of energy though. Goal is to burn the fat before the muscle. Which isn't even what the Keto diet was originally designed for but from most fitness perspectives it is the end goal now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

So why do you think keto has an advantage over an isocaloric, protein-matched diet with higher carbs and lower fat?

Appetite suppression

Adequate protein and fiber intake will have the same effect.

lockef

Adequate protein and fiber intake will have the same effect.

Have you ever done keto? Not the same.

In addition, if done correctly, keto also has a muscle sparing effect.

RonSwanson66

Adequate protein and fiber intake will have the same effect.

Have you ever done keto? Not the same.

In addition, if done correctly, keto also has a muscle sparing effect.

Already covered.

Keto has not been shown to have any advantage over isocaloric, protein matched diets. None.

It's a strategy that is useful for some, but not all.. Nothing magical.

"However, not everyone functions well in ketosis. They get brain fuzzed, lethargic and just generally feel awful. Even with weeks of being on a ketogenic diet, they never seem to adapt completely. That’s not a good recipe for long-term adherence to a diet or healthy functioning or training.

Tangentially, I’d note that this seems to be related to inherent levels of insulin sensitivity. Individuals with good insulin sensitivity, who typically run well on carbohydrates, tend to not do well on low-carbohydrate diets. In contrast, individuals with insulin resistance often do far better reducing carbohydrates and that often means going to ketogenic levels. Finally, some people seem to have the metabolic flexibility to do well with either diet."

Lyle McDonald
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html

neanderthin

Adequate protein and fiber intake will have the same effect.

Have you ever done keto? Not the same.

In addition, if done correctly, keto also has a muscle sparing effect.

And carbs are protein sparing.

lockef

RS, I don't understand what your quote has to do with proving metabolic advantage. I like LM too, I've bought and read both "The ketogenic diet" and "Ultimate Diet 2.0".

In terms of overall weight loss, no there's no advantage. If you burn more than you consume, you will lose weight. Keto diets change your bodies primary source of fuel from glucose to fat. That means that your body will not break down muscle for glucose for fuel, and use ketones and fat instead.

neanderthin

RS, I don't understand what your quote has to do with proving metabolic advantage. I like LM too, I've bought and read both "The ketogenic diet" and "Ultimate Diet 2.0".

In terms of overall weight loss, no there's no advantage. If you burn more than you consume, you will lose weight. Keto diets change your bodies primary source of fuel from glucose to fat. That means that your body will not break down muscle for glucose for fuel, and use ketones and fat instead.

If in an isocaloric state or when overconsumed....in a deficit amino's are going to be used for glucose production, so it isn't that clear cut.

lockef

Some excerpts from Lyle McDonalds The Ketogenic Diet...

"There is a common misconception, especially among bodybuilders, that ketosis is
indicative of protein breakdown when in fact the exact opposite is the case. The development of
ketosis sets in motion a series of adaptations which minimize body protein losses during periods
of caloric deprivation. In fact, preventing the development of ketosis during these periods
increases protein losses from the body."

"By the third day of carbohydrate restriction, the body is no longer using an appreciable
amount of glucose for fuel. At this time essentially all of the non-protein energy is being derived
from the oxidation of fat, both directly from FFA and indirectly via ketone bodies."

"An unusual effect of complete fasting is a general decrease in appetite after a short period
of time. Additionally, studies which restrict carbohydrate but allow ‘unlimited’ fat and protein find
that calorie intake goes down compared to normal levels further suggesting a link between
ketosis and appetite"

Again, no metabolic advantage. Cal in/cal out, blah blah.

RonSwanson66

Some excerpts from Lyle McDonalds The Ketogenic Diet...

"There is a common misconception, especially among bodybuilders, that ketosis is
indicative of protein breakdown when in fact the exact opposite is the case. The development of
ketosis sets in motion a series of adaptations which minimize body protein losses during periods
of caloric deprivation. In fact, preventing the development of ketosis during these periods
increases protein losses from the body."

"By the third day of carbohydrate restriction, the body is no longer using an appreciable
amount of glucose for fuel. At this time essentially all of the non-protein energy is being derived
from the oxidation of fat, both directly from FFA and indirectly via ketone bodies."

"An unusual effect of complete fasting is a general decrease in appetite after a short period
of time. Additionally, studies which restrict carbohydrate but allow ‘unlimited’ fat and protein find
that calorie intake goes down compared to normal levels further suggesting a link between
ketosis and appetite"

Again, no metabolic advantage. Cal in/cal out, blah blah.

More from Lyle:

"My opinion on ketogenic diets is this: ketogenic diets are one of many (ok, three) dietary approaches available. They have advantages and disadvantages (like all diets). They are appropriate under some circumstances, relatively neutral under others, and entirely inappropriate under still other circumstances. They are not magic but they work tremendously well for some people and absolutely horribly for other. There are still questions regarding their long-term effects."

"The point I’m trying to make, and one that I will continue to make (probably for the rest of my life since morons will always think of me as the keto-guru), is that, it’s a matter of context, always. Whether a given diet, or training program, or supplement or drug is ‘the best’ always depends on context.

And if you continue to think that I only advocate or believe in ketogenic diets after reading that, I strongly suggest you go get your head checked for signs of trauma because you would seem to have a rather large comprehension problem."

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-4.html



"for the most part, studies where protein is adequate (or at least close to it), varying carbs and fats within the context of an identical caloric intake tends to have a minimal overall effect. What effect is occasionally seen tends to be small and highly variable (some subjects do better with one diet than another but there’s no consistent advantage). With the possible exception of extreme conditions (folks looking for super-leanness or folks who are super-obese), caloric intake is the greater determinant of results than the macronutrient composition."

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

lockef

RS, I fail to see why you're quoting these. Are you suggesting I get my head checked? Where have said that LM advocates a Keto diet over another? Perhaps you're the one who needs help in reading comprehension?

We'll agree that a X amount of calories on a Keto diet vs. X amount of calories on "insert diet here" will yield the same amount of weight loss (excluding water weight).

Just because I state that there are other advantages to keto, you want to attack me? Pretty immature coming from someone in their mid-forties. Not cool.

For anyone mature who'd like to discuss, here's some studies on the effects on appetite from ketosis.

Yudkin J. The low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of obesity. Postgrad Med (1972) 151-154
Yudkin J. and Carey M. The treatment of obesity by a ‘high-fat’ diet - the inevitably of calories. Lancet (1960) 939
Rosen JC et. al. Comparison of carbohydrate-containing and carbohydrate-restricted hypocaloric diets in the treatment of obesity: effects on appetite and mood. Am J Clin Nutr 82 (1982) 36: 463-469

Jeff92se

Why would one be on a low carb diet if they don't have to?

Dundreggen

We'll agree that a X amount of calories on a Keto diet vs. X amount of calories on "insert diet here" will yield the same amount of weight loss (excluding water weight).

Except it won't if you are insulin resistant.

I am eating slightly MORE calories a day on a keto diet than I was previously, yet am loosing more weight (18 pounds so far). There is more than simply calories in at play.

Trechechus

They aren't. They are easy for your body to convert into glucose which can then be converted in to ATP to fuel your cells.

They are good for fast energy, but if you don't use them up, your body converts them into lipids (fat) to store energy for later.

Dundreggen

Why would one be on a low carb diet if they don't have to?

I feel fuller, I am never hungry or feel deprived. I have tried simply cutting calories (and lost 60 pounds) but I had to cut a LOT just to make the scale move or inches disapear. I was miserable and could not live like that. They came back.

Low carb for me isn't hard. I loved breads! But I don't crave them now.

Why is also health issues. Some interesting primary lit shows that you have a much decreased chance of cancer if you go low carb. Less free radicals in the body. There are also some amazing studies (going back to the 50s but ignored for political lobbiest reasons) that cholesterol levels and heart disease could be related to high carb diets.

I would say why eat empty calories if you don't have to?

To me carbs aren't 'bad'. But there are carbs from 'good' sources and carbs from 'bad' sources. I obviously had an insulin issue with carbs. So I avoid many carbs in general and why I eventually gravitated to keto (there are MANY forms of low carb diet) You do need some sugars, but your body can make sugar (gluconeogensis) from protien. You don't NEED to eat carbs to get all your energy or nutrients. You do NEED fats and protiens though. Eating some carbs if you aren't sensitive to them, from good sources (not typical bread, rice or pasta) is likely a good thing.

Hope that anwers your question.

questionablemethods

Why would one be on a low carb diet if they don't have to?

To echo Dundreggen, a lot of people feel a lot better when eating a lower amount of carbohydrates and it is easier for them to maintain a caloric deficit. I don't know why it ends up being such a heated debate.

RonSwanson66

Yudkin J. The low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of obesity. Postgrad Med (1972) 151-154

Link? No abstract available on PubMed

Yudkin J. and Carey M. The treatment of obesity by a ‘high-fat’ diet - the inevitably of calories. Lancet (1960) 939

Link to full-text? Pubmed only lists title w/ no abstract.

Rosen JC et. al. Comparison of carbohydrate-containing and carbohydrate-restricted hypocaloric diets in the treatment of obesity: effects on appetite and mood. Am J Clin Nutr 82 (1982) 36: 463-469

OOPS!

"There was no support for the idea that a carbohydrate-free protein-supplemented fast decreases appetite and elevates mood in comparison with an isocaloric carbohydrate-containing diet. Thus, suppression of appetite alone does not appear to be sufficient reason in itself for using diets of this type."

RonSwanson66

Why would one be on a low carb diet if they don't have to?

To echo Dundreggen, a lot of people feel a lot better when eating a lower amount of carbohydrates and it is easier for them to maintain a caloric deficit. I don't know why it ends up being such a heated debate.

Because many claim that this is a universal response, or that calories don't matter. Low-carb diets, for those that respond well to them, are fine.

Demonizing carbs is idiotic.

neanderthin

Higher protein diets are known to be more satiating, at least that's been my assessment reading nutritional studies for the last decade..........it's not something in doubt imo.

Jeff92se

I've lowered my carbs to more of the complex type. But I'm not there to tell people that ultra low / low carb diets are better than another. I don't think most here would argue that.

But the pissing contest is another thing.