For Vegans / Vegetarians only.

Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.

I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^

I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^

For me, it's a matter of which is more important. My convictions are stronger on this issue than any need for physical superiority or even greatness. If it were the other way around, I'd actually be drawn to a Paleo diet from what I can tell. (This is not to say that I don't believe vegans can achieve great athleticism or physicality, just that for me, I'm so neutral on the topic that I can't be bothered to research it and debate it one way or the other. I'm more here to add another perspective to the topic, not win a point.)

Are you serious? People try to turn their cats Vegan? Do I even dare Google this subject? O_O

That's just....cruel. This is coming from the guy who used to hate cats, until I owned one from a kitten and realized that they are actually pretty badass if you play with them all of the time to keep them from turning into lazy sacks of ****.

Yep. Very serious.

I have no words for the garbage I found upon Googleing this subject....well, after I got past the first few links that were justifiably berating people who tried to do so. At least the woman writing this article is logical.

http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/vegan-cat-owners-tips

Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.

I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^

Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.

From the looks of it, it hasn't slowed you down any!

Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.

I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^

Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.

Just to jump in here re vegetarianism and meeting goals - and I am speaking as a vegetarian and not a vegan. I have no problems hitting my macros at all and do not find it hard. I also do not think being a vegetarian has impeded my progress in my lifting. In fact, as I am a vegetarian that loves milk, it may well have helped my goals to a degree.

Yes, I wasn't taking it personally, just chiming in to balance out those "many proponents of veganism" since I'd wager there are an awful lot of us who care more about our diet being adequately healthy than being superior.

I am sure you're right. In fact, that seems to be a common theme among most people, and to my knowledge, has been for a long time. Most are okay with adequate, average, normal, or whatever you want to call it. I don't get it, but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. In all fairness, I've always had a 'be the best or gtfo' type of attitude. ^_^

Well.... Like I said earlier, I recognize that vegetarianism in terms of lifting weights and hitting macros may not be the easiest or the ideal path. I have chosen this path for reasons not having to do with my fitness goals. In my larger life goals, this fits. And while it may be a slight set back in terms of fitness goals, it certainly is not an impossibility for me to be what I want to be while also being vegetarian.

Just to jump in here re vegetarianism and meeting goals - and I am speaking as a vegetarian and not a vegan. I have no problems hitting my macros at all and do not find it hard. I also do not think being a vegetarian has impeded my progress in my lifting. In fact, as I am a vegetarian that loves milk, it may well have helped my goals to a degree.

My protein sources are primarily vegan. I do eat eggs and occassional cheese, but too much dairy doesn't mix well with me. But I appreciated your post because its good to hear that vegetarianism isn't a hindrance to strength goals!

One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.

So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.

So, why?

Athletes who are vegan/vegetarian:

Patrik Baboumian, Strongman competitor, former bodybuilder
Brendan Brazier, Triathlete
Arian Foster, NFL running back for Houston Texans
Georges Laraq, Pro hockey player
Mike Zigomanis, Pro hockey player
Robert Cheeke, body builder
Luke Cummo, martial artist
Bryan Danielson, pro wrestler
Mike Mahler, body builder
Salim Stoudamire, NBA player
Mike Tyson, pro boxer
RIcky WIlliams, running back for Miami Dolphins
Carl Lewis, Olympic track star
Joe Namath, former NFL quarterback

There are MANY more, but my hand is beginning to hurt typing all the names of all these tremendous athletes.
What else ya got?

Bryan Danielson is no longer vegan. He was also never vegan by choice, it was for a medical reason. He was a great wrestler long before he was vegan, and he's still a great wrestler that's no longer vegan. His vegan diet had absolutely nothing to do with his performance or success. In fact he stated in an interview that being vegan hurt more than helped.

Jesus Christ...does Tofu make people unable to comprehend plain English? Reread my post, and you will realize that none of the people you listed meet my criteria.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't being superior at anything involve more than just diet? I think you're just frustrating yourself expecting an answer you know probably doesn't exist, if you have such expertise. A lot of people succeed immensely on a vegan diet. A lot of people succeed otherwise.

ps-I'm vegan, but because of medical/ethical reasons. I personally feel better this way. Doesn't mean everyone does.

Yes, of course it does. However, the OP is arguing that Vegan is 'superior', which it clearly is not...either that, or Vegans just suck at life. I prefer to think it's the diet holding them back from the physical greatness that those who have gone before them have accomplished while consuming all manner of animal products.

Perhaps there are no vegan athletes who meet your criteria - and that is fine. Maybe a vegan diet is not superior to meat eating within the criteria you describe.

However, the vast majority of MFP users are not looking to break the next strength world record, only finding a diet that will adequately cover their dietary needs - possibly even maximize their own person potentials. As has already been posted - it takes mor than diet to break a world strength record - motivation, agression, determination, upbringing and locality, genetics, steroids and other illegal substances, wealth and finally - diet.

I'm quite happy driving my vegan body and it serves me well. I believe that is the case with others who choose to be vegan for whatever reason.

Well put.

One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.

So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.

So, why?

How many of those strength records are held by people on steroids?

Are vegans less likely to take steroids and therefore unlikely to hold such records?

I don't know, I just thought I would put it out there.

If you'd like, I can throw the drug tested records out there as well.

Lmao! Do you live in a hole?
I have two words for you... Lance Armstrong
Hahaha

One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.

So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.

So, why?

Wrong. The strongest man of Germany is a vegan!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

One question for the guy swearing that this is the 'proper' way to do things. How many world strength records are held by Vegans? The answer is none.

So, if this diet is the way that humans are 'supposed' to eat, why are they so physically inferior when they are eating this way? Granted, there are some strong guys out there who are Vegan, and I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that if this is the ideal diet, shouldn't Vegans be dominating their meat eating relatives in all sports? They're not...at all. In fact, they're not even close.

So, why?

Wrong. The strongest man of Germany is a vegan!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

Already been hit and knocked down. German strength record does not in any way equal world record. As I said before, this guy's lifts are actually lower than the world records for an entire weight class below him. Try again.

Please don't put words in my mouth. It was in reference to refraining from grains because machinery may have killed some creatures. Doing your best means if palm oil was taken from sources that you know destroyed habitats, try to find an oil that isn't. I obtain my vegetables from my dad's garden, I pick out the slugs and put them back outside. They might not survive but I tried my best to prevent the death, and that is a point. If you eat anything derived directly from animal exploitation you cannot describe your lifestyle as vegan. I haven't spent any money or energy trying to prove I'm better than anyone, as I said already my choices are my own and I never start the argument, but defend when provoked.

To be honest, I get where you are coming from.

Now, here's my quarrel with this. You are basically allowing intent to be your defining factor. The deaths those slugs suffer could be one far more excruciating than if I were to say, decapitate a pig, or to use an extremely weird variation, put one down using a non-painful poison. Since your intention was to let the slug live, somehow it's death is less morally treacherous than the pigs, because I killed the pig with the intention of eating it, though the pig's death was far less painful?

Now, would you agree that if I were to raise my own animals for consumption, and could then be assured that their lives and deaths were as painless as possible, that I would be on the same moral wavelength as the Vegan lifestyle? If not, why?

They could be far more excruciating but the death could also be perfectly natural, the slug could die in it's sleep from old age or I could accidentally step on it, my dog may even use it as a toy. that's a lot of what ifs, and it's a strange argument...one that I doubt can extract many sensible points...

I just try to keep any involvement on my part separated from the suffering of any other being. One aspect of general vegan opinion is a respect for animal welfare. I choose to abstain because it feels right for me personally in many, many ways. Upon educating myself of the realities on many farms by visiting local farms all through my life (I have not visited a slaughter house of ever witnessed an animal being killed, the farms were enough for me), I became vegetarian as a child and as my knowledge of happenings progressed and became more in tune with my adult emotions, progressing me towards becoming vegan through default.

I never see it as "can't eat that", but "I can't bring myself to consider this food". This was a natural feeling deep within me and I know that I personally could not consume anything contained within an animal. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying I feel it is wrong for me. This is my own explanation of my heart held beliefs and I'm award that is is over simplified and childlike by nature.

Now that I've slowly crept my way towards your question, for me to consider the idea of raising an animal for food, I know that I would sooner humanly kill myself than be able to raise a weapon to a pig, but I also accept that many people are capable of this. Truth be told, I can respect people who obtain their meat in this way. I have one close friend who hunts deer. He kills about 6 annually and this is his primary source of meat. This man will sit in the rain outside hunting season because he enjoys watching the deer in their environment, he has never needed more than one shot and assures me the deer never know what happened. I'm not going to pretend this idea doesn't upset me, it does. I can't fully comprehend it and would never want to bear witness, but myself and my friend have had many heated conversations where we both express extreme frustration and anger towards the meat industry. My friend is also a butcher, and doesn't buy any of the meat there because he can see signs that the animal was beaten before slaughter (I've suppressed the grisly details, but I seen raw chicken with deep bruises).

We also share the same opinions that many hunters are incompetent and enjoy hurting the deer or extending their death, this man is an exception to that rule, he believes hunting licences should be much more difficult to obtain than they are, in this country anyway.

So.... yeah, it's not for me, but I believe that an animal who had good quality of life and died with no knowledge of what was happening to it, that is far more morally right than the horrifically mistreated animals in some factories. The lesser of two evils

Just let me give the pig a little hug first

They could be far more excruciating but the death could also be perfectly natural, the slug could die in it's sleep from old age or I could accidentally step on it, my dog may even use it as a toy. that's a lot of what ifs, and it's a strange argument...one that I doubt can extract many sensible points...

I just try to keep any involvement on my part separated from the suffering of any other being. One aspect of general vegan opinion is a respect for animal welfare. I choose to abstain because it feels right for me personally in many, many ways. Upon educating myself of the realities on many farms by visiting local farms all through my life (I have not visited a slaughter house of ever witnessed an animal being killed, the farms were enough for me), I became vegetarian as a child and as my knowledge of happenings progressed and became more in tune with my adult emotions, progressing me towards becoming vegan through default.

I never see it as "can't eat that", but "I can't bring myself to consider this food". This was a natural feeling deep within me and I know that I personally could not consume anything contained within an animal. I'm not saying it's wrong, I am saying I feel it is wrong for me. This is my own explanation of my heart held beliefs and I'm award that is is over simplified and childlike by nature.

Now that I've slowly crept my way towards your question, for me to consider the idea of raising an animal for food, I know that I would sooner humanly kill myself than be able to raise a weapon to a pig, but I also accept that many people are capable of this. Truth be told, I can respect people who obtain their meat in this way. I have one close friend who hunts deer. He kills about 6 annually and this is his primary source of meat. This man will sit in the rain outside hunting season because he enjoys watching the deer in their environment, he has never needed more than one shot and assures me the deer never know what happened. I'm not going to pretend this idea doesn't upset me, it does. I can't fully comprehend it and would never want to bear witness, but myself and my friend have had many heated conversations where we both express extreme frustration and anger towards the meat industry. My friend is also a butcher, and doesn't buy any of the meat there because he can see signs that the animal was beaten before slaughter (I've suppressed the grisly details, but I seen raw chicken with deep bruises).

We also share the same opinions that many hunters are incompetent and enjoy hurting the deer or extending their death, this man is an exception to that rule, he believes hunting licences should be much more difficult to obtain than they are, in this country anyway.

So.... yeah, it's not for me, but I believe that an animal who had good quality of life and died with no knowledge of what was happening to it, that is far more morally right than the horrifically mistreated animals in some factories. The lesser of two evils

Just let me give the pig a little hug first

While I am obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum, I can agree with you, at least so far as humans are concerned. Nature on the other hand, is far more cruel than most people would like to believe. For example, I once read something about how komodo Dragons kill water buffalo, as witnessed firsthand by a guy who ended up quitting nature documentary as a result. Basically, the dragon poisons the water buffalo with naturally occurring bacteria in it's mouth by biting, then follows it around for days to weeks waiting for it to become weak enough to consume whole. Makes chicken punching seem pretty tame in comparison.
Most people would argue "but that's just nature, that's how they eat". Fine. How do we know that humans aren't programmed to be just as sadistic when it comes to killing prey, and that those like you and I who would prefer humane deaths aren't the ones defying the natural course of things? We may possess the ability to reason things out, but that obviously doesn't exempt our entire species from doing some pretty twisted ****.
You are obviously one of the many who realize that you do what you do for personal feelings, and I can appreciate that. The ones I quarrel with are those that I have mentioned before: those that swear the Vegan diet can work miracles on the body, and that if everyone would just go Vegan, most of the world's problems would suddenly evaporate. They pay this lip service without taking one thing into account: just as we adapt to things, so to does the rest of the world. You know as well as I do what would happen if hunting of animals suddenly stopped today. It wouldn't be pretty for anyone, meat eater or otherwise.

But it WOULD save the world. Just kidding dude. My rose tainted bubble is getting thinned with sad thoughts of reality

Nothing will save the world, nothing is supposed to be perfect, that would be boring. But I just kinda like my world and I'm staying here :drinker: Fun talking to you G, I'm outta food, peace :laugh:

I was watching a video on youtube. Hodgetwins for that matter. Anyway, they mentioned something fasting and then referenced to be all sucked up like Vegans. Meaning their consumption of protein isn't as adequate as meat eats. It made me laugh pretty well due to most of the vegans I know are all small and frail. But yeah, who the fuuuunk cares what you eat? I'm vegetarian and it makes no difference to me how I consume my calories/ macros... just trying to build me some lean muscle.