what's too much protein when bulking?
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That's the point, it doesn't matter what studies say, it matters what the reality of the situation is. I am speaking from "experience" not from reading studies. The way science works, someone makes a claim based on their research, you mimick what they did and see if you get the same results. I did the opposite of what they did and still got the same results they get. Which means there is flaws in their method.
If you "REALLY" want to see the studies that support my claim, i'll post them tomorrow, they're on another forum...
I have been sciencing wrong
The way I should be sciencing for my PhD is by doing opposite of everything and if I get results, I should publish it.
For example: Science says gravity exists. I should dig a hole in earth and take the gravity out. If I cannot take the gravity out of earth, gravity doesn't exist!0 -
Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
That's pretty funny considering he wrote "the protein book". I'd listen to the big guys at the gym though :laugh:
To answer the OP, as low as 1.2g/kg can retain LBM when maintaining weight. When cutting, it is recommended to increase to closer to 2g/kg or possibly a bit more. (BF% and size of deficit matter) When bulking, studies show that up to 2g/kg is sufficient. IMO this should ideally be spread out over a few meals per day. (It is unlikely that one meal per day is optimal for maximum protein synthesis but also not required to have MANY however you can if you wish)
Thank you, the only sane person in the room.
only?
My apologies to the other sane people in the room (I overlooked them amid the deafening crashes of the surf waves of testosterone and bizarre anti-scientific empiricism).0 -
Oh good, another discussion among people who have a good idea of what they're talking about derailed by an overweight, immature, and clueless "expert." The mods need to start deferring to the adults in the room and cleaning these forums up because they're becoming next to useless.0
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If you're going to put it like that...you need to post more
Slacker
Post more about what? I saw a facebook conversation the other day where Lyle got stuck into some supplement company owner over his pre-workout product. It was funny from start to finish. Lyle's good at being disagreeably correct0 -
1.5 g/lb for me, though I'm cutting. I'd probably maintain this for bulking while increasing carbs.0
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Lyle Mcdonald is not exactly a great reference, though he is often referenced for some reason. He knows his sh**, but someone who only thinks about things without being able to apply them to any real result is only right in theory.
That's pretty funny considering he wrote "the protein book". I'd listen to the big guys at the gym though :laugh:
To answer the OP, as low as 1.2g/kg can retain LBM when maintaining weight. When cutting, it is recommended to increase to closer to 2g/kg or possibly a bit more. (BF% and size of deficit matter) When bulking, studies show that up to 2g/kg is sufficient. IMO this should ideally be spread out over a few meals per day. (It is unlikely that one meal per day is optimal for maximum protein synthesis but also not required to have MANY however you can if you wish)
Thank you, the only sane person in the room.
only?
My apologies to the other sane people in the room (I overlooked them amid the deafening crashes of the surf waves of testosterone and bizarre anti-scientific empiricism).
:flowerforyou: :smooched:0 -
That's the point, it doesn't matter what studies say, it matters what the reality of the situation is. I am speaking from "experience" not from reading studies. The way science works, someone makes a claim based on their research, you mimick what they did and see if you get the same results. I did the opposite of what they did and still got the same results they get. Which means there is flaws in their method.
If you "REALLY" want to see the studies that support my claim, i'll post them tomorrow, they're on another forum...
I have been sciencing wrong
The way I should be sciencing for my PhD is by doing opposite of everything and if I get results, I should publish it.
For example: Science says gravity exists. I should dig a hole in earth and take the gravity out. If I cannot take the gravity out of earth, gravity doesn't exist!
I love it when you science for us...makes me all tingly and stuff.:smooched:0 -
If you're going to put it like that...you need to post more
Slacker
Post more about what? I saw a facebook conversation the other day where Lyle got stuck into some supplement company owner over his pre-workout product. It was funny from start to finish. Lyle's good at being disagreeably correct
It was a compliment man, I agreed with everything you said.0 -
I think most people reading this post will find it easy to distinguish who is posting from an intellectual and factual standpoint and who is making things up and saying they'll back up their claims...tomorrow.
Manana, manana, manana.0 -
That's the point, it doesn't matter what studies say, it matters what the reality of the situation is. I am speaking from "experience" not from reading studies. The way science works, someone makes a claim based on their research, you mimick what they did and see if you get the same results. I did the opposite of what they did and still got the same results they get. Which means there is flaws in their method.
If you "REALLY" want to see the studies that support my claim, i'll post them tomorrow, they're on another forum...
I have been sciencing wrong
The way I should be sciencing for my PhD is by doing opposite of everything and if I get results, I should publish it.
For example: Science says gravity exists. I should dig a hole in earth and take the gravity out. If I cannot take the gravity out of earth, gravity doesn't exist!
Gravity is only a theory at best. I think we should set up experiments with people digging up the gravity. Feed them excess protein too. Its like having your meat cake and eating your pie in the sky too!0 -
I like the part in bold, many people on MFP, make recommendations based on "research" with out having any real experience in the subject. They blindly follow some paper because it's backed by "science" with out experience they have no idea how true the claims even are in the first place.
What's your experience?
My experience is actually living a lower protein diet and not having it affect my LBM. As I said I was consuming about 100g a day with an LBM of around 200 at the time.
Can you go into a bit more specifics?
What was your starting weight? What was your end weight?
What kind of cut did you do and for how long?
What was your training protocol like during that time frame?
How did you measure your LBM before and after?0 -
I have also been told that most people can't absorb much more than 30 grams of protein at a time. So the point would be that if you are taking in anymore than that at a time it will pass through. Makes you take a more balanced approach instead of trying to do it all at once.
myth0 -
Professional body builders take 'upto' 3 gram per lb lean muscle mass when bulking.
They are doing it all wrong according to MFP standards.0 -
They're also using AAS for the most part. With that said, so long as you get enough fats and carbs within your macros, I don't think you can really go overboard. It just becomes an expensive way to block the toilet after a point.Professional body builders take 'upto' 3 gram per lb lean muscle mass when bulking.
They are doing it all wrong according to MFP standards.0 -
Just a note to everyone that says you can't have too much... There's actually such a thing as too much. It can lead to various problems such as dehydration, constipation and nutritional deficiencies to obesity, heart and kidney diseases, insulin resistance and diabetes, prostate cancer, decreased thyroid function, metabolic acidosis and reduced immune function. Also, the American Council on Exercise, or ACE, said your body can't store extra protein. When you consume more than you need, it doesn't go toward helping you build muscle. Instead, your body processes it so it can be stored as fat.
However, with all that in mind, it is very unlikely that you would be taking in so much protein as to reach any of those. So, if you're bulking, increase your protein, but you really don't need to be going over about 1g/lbLBM.0 -
If a study does something and gets a result they're implying their results are true. For example if they do an experiment and find out that x = 5, they will write about how x = 5 in the the study, a lot of people on the fourms will say "they did this study and x = 5 and that's just how it is, it's backed by research blah blah blah" without even testing it themselves. Just a bunch of parrots.
If I did the opposite (different experiment) and used y instead of x and i still got 5, y = 5 then the claims of the study aren't that greatly supported. Possible that x and y both equal 5, but in this field, no... Ask everyone who makes the claim to eat 1g of protein per lbm if they ever cut their protein in half and what results did they get??? More then likely they never done that at all. They're not speaking from experience.
Until you can back up your own personal experiment the study still wins.0 -
I like the part in bold, many people on MFP, make recommendations based on "research" with out having any real experience in the subject. They blindly follow some paper because it's backed by "science" with out experience they have no idea how true the claims even are in the first place.
What's your experience?
My experience is actually living a lower protein diet and not having it affect my LBM. As I said I was consuming about 100g a day with an LBM of around 200 at the time.
Can you go into a bit more specifics?
What was your starting weight? What was your end weight?
What kind of cut did you do and for how long?
What was your training protocol like during that time frame?
How did you measure your LBM before and after?
Q: What was your starting weight? What was your end weight?
As I said it has been a while, it was around last summer. I guess it would have been around june or so. I weighed around 290lbs. When i stopped working out I was at around 250lbs.
Q: What kind of cut did you do and for how long?
I was doing ADF(Alternate Day Fasting) at the time. I would eat 500 calories one day. then 3,500 the next. I would even work out fasted eating 500 for the entire day. I would try to get in between 100-200g of protein on my eating days. That's an average of 50-100g of protein a day.
Q: What was your training protocol like during that time frame?
I was doing 5x5 3x a week with about 20mins worth of cardio on the elliptical. I modified the 5x5 routine and would do 5x5 of everything (including dead lifts) and with a 1 minute break between sets. This greatly increases the intense and burns a ton of calories.
Q: How did you measure your LBM before and after?
I used a tape measure method, the military body fat% You know there is error in that. My results actually showed an increase of LBM by 1lbs. That is within 5% so i exclude that as an error. I just say I maintained my LBM.
Newbie weight training and you kept your LBM - good. But it *might* show that had you eaten a little more optimally you might have had newbie gains too.0 -
Minute rests on 5x5 is good, but it doesn't 'burn a ton of calories'
I would be inclined to side with you in this case since it takes fewer data points to disprove an idea than to prove one, however I don't think your data point is valid. You used a tool to measure body fat that can be HUGELY inaccurate, I can drop a few % in under a minute by doing a few shrugs.
Are standard recommendations on protein too high? Quite possibly (and they'd vary at least slightly from person to person), but you have not successfully proved this. Further I don't think they are as low as you are claiming.0 -
As I mentioned above, i have many studies that support my claim. Here is part of a topic i wrote with references
Those references were disputed heavily in the thread where you posted it.0 -
Minute rests on 5x5 is good, but it doesn't 'burn a ton of calories'
I would be inclined to side with you in this case since it takes fewer data points to disprove an idea than to prove one, however I don't think your data point is valid. You used a tool to measure body fat that can be HUGELY inaccurate, I can drop a few % in under a minute by doing a few shrugs.
Are standard recommendations on protein too high? Quite possibly (and they'd vary at least slightly from person to person), but you have not successfully proved this. Further I don't think they are as low as you are claiming.
I wouldn't call it invalid, I would call it "something to take in to consideration." The question is "why?" did i get the results I did. Human error? possibly, could i be absolutely dead right with nails in the coffin? Possibly. I wouldn't just throw out my claims, as I said something to consider, something that may need more research.
I plan to start working out really soon, this week or next week. I don't want to pay for a dexa scan but I want to try to put on some LBM in a deficit and see how it goes... If you have any body fat methods to recommend, I'll gladly hear them and take them in to consideration.
High point calipers, while inaccurate, would give more insight I think.
I tended to agree with the posters contending your claims. I think if you're going to post that research you should link to the threads containing the criticism so others can decide for themselves.Yes, i let them be disputed, when they where posted again and the same people tried to depute them... they didn't get far...
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/984225-help-on-losing-body-fat-percentage
As long as it's 'something to consider' from an admittedly inaccurate n=1 case, I think the safe bet would be to stick with the higher protein intake.0
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