High carb vegan diet

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

Chicken or the egg. Veganism is (arguably) impossible in modern technology BECAUSE of modern technology. Without that technology, when it comes to B12, we don't need that technology.

That's nice that animals do that. Humans can't, to my knowledge, get sufficient quantities of B12 from eating plant matter "in the soil." Your claim that we can get enough B12 by, um.... eating dirt seems more than a little suspicious.

The fact that people over 50 have a difficult time getting enough B12 from natural sources doesn't say anything about what we were "meant" to eat or about how much dirt we should be eating. It's an evolutionary piece of trivia. People over 50 generally don't breed, so there's little to no evolutionary pressure for such a deficiency to be bred out of the gene pool.

The point stands that it's apparently impossible to get sufficient B12 from natural sources unless you eat animal products (or, as you claim, dirt). That does say something about what we have evolved to consume.

To the best of my knowledge, it's impossible to live on plant-based material only.

So we agree to disagree. Humans get the B-12 the same way that the animals do. Not necessarily through eating dirt, but because the food is "contaminated" in the soil with the bacteria. Because of the advances in how we do things, no, it's not a good bet to only eat plant foods grown and processed in modern times and depend on your B-12, particularly with a supplement readily available.

If animals were only fed other animals that didn't eat plant material, meat-eaters eating those animals would also not get any B-12. To say that B12 is a "natural" animal product is false.

We actually don't need tons of B-12 and store it for some time. Yes, I do believe that prior to the changes in how we do things, humans could get sufficient B-12 from a plant based diet without supplementation. They didn't have to eat mud pies to do that.

There's nothing to agree or disagree with. We're discussing facts, not opinions.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. It is a fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology (unless you accept the ludicrous claim that you can get enough B12 by eating your veggies with dirt on them).

There's nothing to agree or disagree with. We're discussing facts, not opinions.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. It is a fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology (unless you accept the ludicrous claim that you can get enough B12 by eating your veggies with dirt on them).

You believing something doesn't make it fact. I know we're discussing facts, not opinions. I think your interpretation of the facts is wrong.

I do not think humans today should rely on getting enough B-12 from eating veggies with dirt on them. Because of the changes in food manufacturing. You think it's ludicrous that humans got B-12 from less clean food but not that animals get their B-12 from eating ... less clean food. That's what I think is ludicrous.

You think it's ludicrous that humans got B-12 from less clean food but not that animals get their B-12 from eating ... less clean food. That's what I think is ludicrous.

You might want to do a little research before you comment further. It's clear that you don't quite understand what we're talking about.

It's a fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology. Your beliefs otherwise are based on ignorance of B12 production and transfer.

I'm really happy for you that you've found an eating style that you can maintain.

However, almost everything in your OP is completely wrong and you shouldn't be posting it for others who may not know any better.

I'm not talking down to anyone, but there are a lot of people on here who are just starting out, are stuck in a rut, or are just desperate to lose. This type of misinformation does not help those people, it only compounds the confusion they may already be experiencing.

You think it's ludicrous that humans got B-12 from less clean food but not that animals get their B-12 from eating ... less clean food. That's what I think is ludicrous.

You might want to do a little research before you comment further. It's clear that you don't quite understand what we're talking about.

Your beliefs otherwise are based on ignorance of B12 production and transfer.

All echoed right back to you.

Just because Johnnthan believes something doesn't make it fact.

You and I are disagreeing on a fundamental point which makes further debate on this useless-you state as fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology. I argue that if this is true (some studies show that algae can be a possible source, but IDC), it's because of modern technology.

Why is it so ludicrous for someone to eat dirt, btw? It sounds gross, but a lot of what we eat sounds gross if you really think about it.

Since we are discussing facts:

Veganism is not impossible without modern technology. No doubt it is made far more practical and accessible to broad population groups, but certainly not impossible.

Most true herbivores contain intestinal bacteria that aide in the production of B-12. That and they ingest some of their own feces which undergoes a kind of fermentation in their digestive tract. Both of which help them maintain vitamin levels.

So, obviously without these options humans are a little more limited. But, B-12 deficiency to the point of claiming a diet to be impossible would assume that there are no other sources for B-12 which would be incorrect.

If we want to make similar statements of half-truth, we could say that the worldwide incidence of heart disease is impossible without modern technology. Certainly historical populations were not able to consume such wanton amounts of animal products and saturated fats and this has been largely enabled by modern food production methods.

It also seems pretty obvious to point out that in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of things that deserve more anger and internet vitriol than veganism. Fast food, childhood obesity, factory farming, etc. Even as an imperfect response, veganism is ultimately a response to an imperfect system.

And not impossible without modern technology. But, we live in one of the most overfed modern civilizations ever. There's enough of every kind of food going around that we can afford to judge the dietary decisions of others. ;-)

Your analogy is flawed. A predatory animal, such as a wolf, feasts when a kill is made but then they won't eat for days afterwards. I assume you don't eat 4000cals then skip a days worth of eating do you, so that it evens out at 2000cals/day?

Oooops I should have read further.

To add to this train of thought...they also don't sit and watch tv...ride around in cars...

I am not exactly sure what I meant about the tv and the cars...other than...I don't think that comparing the eating habits of humans and animals make a lot of sense....different requirements...

You can loose weight on a plant based low fat diet while being sedentary but in order to get lean and skinny you need to move your *kitten*.

I have no desire to be skinny...just a healthy weight and physically fit for someone my age.

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

This. There is a reason vegans in the past had to hide themselves in the mountains of the east........they were slowly starving to death and too weak to fight.

Look up gut called Al Kavadlo on You Tube - a guy into progressive calisthenics, definitely not slowly starving to death, not weak by any strength of imagination and oh - he's vegan.