High carb vegan diet

The fact is that veganism is literally impossible without modern technology.

That's nice that animals do that. Humans can't, to my knowledge, get sufficient quantities of B12 from eating plant matter "in the soil." Your claim that we can get enough B12 by, um.... eating dirt seems more than a little suspicious.

The fact that people over 50 have a difficult time getting enough B12 from natural sources doesn't say anything about what we were "meant" to eat or about how much dirt we should be eating. It's an evolutionary piece of trivia. People over 50 generally don't breed, so there's little to no evolutionary pressure for such a deficiency to be bred out of the gene pool.

The point stands that it's apparently impossible to get sufficient B12 from natural sources unless you eat animal products (or, as you claim, dirt). That does say something about what we have evolved to consume.

To the best of my knowledge, it's impossible to live on plant-based material only.

So we agree to disagree. Humans get the B-12 the same way that the animals do. Not necessarily through eating dirt, but because the food is "contaminated" in the soil with the bacteria. Because of the advances in how we do things, no, it's not a good bet to only eat plant foods grown and processed in modern times and depend on your B-12, particularly with a supplement readily available.

If animals were only fed other animals that didn't eat plant material, meat-eaters eating those animals would also not get any B-12. To say that B12 is a "natural" animal product is false.

We actually don't need tons of B-12 and store it for some time. Yes, I do believe that prior to the changes in how we do things, humans could get sufficient B-12 from a plant based diet without supplementation. They didn't have to eat mud pies to do that.

There's nothing to agree or disagree with. We're discussing facts, not opinions.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. It is a fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology (unless you accept the ludicrous claim that you can get enough B12 by eating your veggies with dirt on them).

You think it's ludicrous that humans got B-12 from less clean food but not that animals get their B-12 from eating ... less clean food. That's what I think is ludicrous.

It always surprises me how contentious conversations about veganism can be.

My 0.02:

It is possible to be a vegan and be unhealthy.
It is possible to be an omnivore and be unhealthy.
Humans are omnivores; this does not mean that all modern diets are justified.
Veganism is no more impractical or unsustainable than modern meat-eating practices. Arguably, less so.

Feast, all ye minions, on the spoils of internet chattel.

Just because Johnnthan believes something doesn't make it fact.

You and I are disagreeing on a fundamental point which makes further debate on this useless-you state as fact that veganism is impossible without modern technology. I argue that if this is true (some studies show that algae can be a possible source, but IDC), it's because of modern technology.

Why is it so ludicrous for someone to eat dirt, btw? It sounds gross, but a lot of what we eat sounds gross if you really think about it.

No, but the fact that it's a fact makes it fact :laugh:

You can't get sufficient B12 from eating natural plant sources, and that's not a result of modern technology. It's not like wild corn or broccoli or whatever growing in South America in the year 1200 had B12 and it just doesn't anymore because of factory farming.

Your claims are factually incorrect, and that's that. It's impossible to be vegan without modern technology, and it has been since the dawn of humanity. Prehistoric man didn't get B12 from dirt.

Since we are discussing facts:

Veganism is not impossible without modern technology. No doubt it is made far more practical and accessible to broad population groups, but certainly not impossible.

Most true herbivores contain intestinal bacteria that aide in the production of B-12. That and they ingest some of their own feces which undergoes a kind of fermentation in their digestive tract. Both of which help them maintain vitamin levels.

So, obviously without these options humans are a little more limited. But, B-12 deficiency to the point of claiming a diet to be impossible would assume that there are no other sources for B-12 which would be incorrect.

If we want to make similar statements of half-truth, we could say that the worldwide incidence of heart disease is impossible without modern technology. Certainly historical populations were not able to consume such wanton amounts of animal products and saturated fats and this has been largely enabled by modern food production methods.

It also seems pretty obvious to point out that in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of things that deserve more anger and internet vitriol than veganism. Fast food, childhood obesity, factory farming, etc. Even as an imperfect response, veganism is ultimately a response to an imperfect system.

And not impossible without modern technology.

Woah, woah woah...
Since when was it not okay to eat NATURAL(god given, if you will) foods? I think, eating low fat is very beneficial. You're much less likely to get heart disease.
Im just going to state some facts..
We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST
We can simply get that & more from plant based foods( Such as leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, & much more)
B12 is found in SOIL. Meat eaters can have a B12 deficiency.
Animals that are torture & you eat their dead flesh..DOES affect you. Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there & your body is processing it VERY slowly. Also, studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.
Now, im not saying you shouldn't eat meat(your life, yah know)...but maybe opt for organic & eat WAAAY less red meat.....
Know where your food is coming from. PLEASE. Reasearch.
Get your animal products from a farm, where you can see how animals are treated
and eat less dairy, because it causes mucus(i know, before i went dairy free(due to allergy), i use to wake up every morning, coughing up gunk, having a runny or stuffed nose..but when i went dairy free..after a week, i didn't have any of that!)
Here's some links...
http://sacredsourcenutrition.com/how-much-protein-do-we-actually-need/
http://www.happycow.net/health-vitamins-B12.html
http://www.mandyparker.com/Digestive System And Poo.htm

We only need 15% of protein to function at the MOST

Why does it take 3 days for beef to run out of your system? Because it's not meant to be there
studies show that people who eat animals who died in a horrific way, tend to have more anxiety and depression issues.

Your analogy is flawed. A predatory animal, such as a wolf, feasts when a kill is made but then they won't eat for days afterwards. I assume you don't eat 4000cals then skip a days worth of eating do you, so that it evens out at 2000cals/day?

Listen, if you're hungry or you just want some food then go and do it, we are a part of nature and in nature there is no calorie restriction. If a wolf had access to food at all times he would eat is brains out without putting on a single pound. Look at pets for instance, a cat eats all they and sleeps all they but won't gain weight. Just try it out for 2 weeks and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Since we are discussing facts:

Veganism is not impossible without modern technology. No doubt it is made far more practical and accessible to broad population groups, but certainly not impossible.

Most true herbivores contain intestinal bacteria that aide in the production of B-12. That and they ingest some of their own feces which undergoes a kind of fermentation in their digestive tract. Both of which help them maintain vitamin levels.

So, obviously without these options humans are a little more limited. But, B-12 deficiency to the point of claiming a diet to be impossible would assume that there are no other sources for B-12 which would be incorrect.

If we want to make similar statements of half-truth, we could say that the worldwide incidence of heart disease is impossible without modern technology. Certainly historical populations were not able to consume such wanton amounts of animal products and saturated fats and this has been largely enabled by modern food production methods.

It also seems pretty obvious to point out that in the grand scheme of things there are a lot of things that deserve more anger and internet vitriol than veganism. Fast food, childhood obesity, factory farming, etc. Even as an imperfect response, veganism is ultimately a response to an imperfect system.

And not impossible without modern technology.

So what are the sources of sufficient dietary B12 that don't involve animal products or modern technology?

Please don't answer "dirt."

Although B12 can be found in fermented soya and seaweed products this is not recommended as a reliable source of B12 for vegans.

B12 is manufactured by micro-organisms in bacteria (especially that found in contaminated water and soil), fungi and algae.

Plant eating primates (such as gorillas) get enough B12 from eating insects that are inevitably found on the plants and fruit that they eat in the wild and from drinking water.

B12 is not manufactured by animals.

If you are fascinated with learning more about B12 I suggest that you do some research.