Ketosis/High Fat Diet

Holt is one data point but I don't know that it provides the answer to this question. For one, Holt didn't even test a lot of foods that you would eat on a low carb diet. Of the handful they did test (fish, beef, eggs), they all ranked on the high-end of the scale when it comes to satiety. Taking that a step further, the least satiating foods by Holt's own study are foods you would not be eating on a low carb diet. So, once you get past potatoes, I don't think Holt actually helps your argument. Quite the opposite actually.

Looking into it a bit deeper, you can look at Holt's own comment:

"Fatty foods are not satisfying, even though people expected them to be," says Holt. "We think the reason is that fat is seen by the body as a fuel which should be used only in emergencies—it stores it in the cells instead of breaking it down for immediate use. Because it doesn't recognize the fat as energy for immediate use, the body does not tell the brain to cut hunger signals, so we go on wanting more. Carbohydrates are the opposite—they raise blood glucose so the body knows it has gotten enough fuel."

And it begs the question how the reaction would be different, if different at all, for someone who has been eating low carb foods for a sustained period of time and is in a state of dietary ketosis.

Either way, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of people feeling quite satiated on a low carb diet. Whether it's the moderate protein intake and/or the fat and/or the lack of carbs that creates this feeling of satiety, it's hard to say. But what's clear is that Holt's findings don't give us the answer.

OP, I sent you a PM. Keto is working really well for me.

I lost about 40 pounds on Keto over two years with no exercise. I've gained it back on now cause I'm not on Keto anymore, for the only reason that I don't know how to successfully workout and Keto at the same time. Been researching refeeds etc, but it never worked for me. :P

I just checked your diary..I see al ot of "quick added calories" and cup, tablespoon measures etc..

If you want to lose last ten pounds you are going to need to tighten up your eating and start logging EVERYTHING that you eat and accounting for it.

I would also suggest that you get a food scale and weight out all your portions...

whether you do Keto, low carb, high carb, whatever..if you are not consistent and accurate with your logging then it will not work ..

Keto, low carb, etc are not some magical fat burning solution ..at the end of the day they are just tools to create a calorie deficit and if you are not accurately logging then they will not work ..

I would suggest tightening up logging first...

This week is literally the first time since October 1st that I've ever used quick add calories. My logging is usually 100% accurate and I DO WEIGH EVERYTHING. Take a look before my week of binging. That is more representative of how I usually log.

I don't use measuring cups.

Quick adds maybe I went back into February and January and saw the following:

Days not logged
Days that were double your goal over 3500 calories at least 2x and I just picked random days
Things not weighed but measured with spoons...ie almond butter
A lot of cracker barrel stuff that isn't weighed...biscuits, chicken, brocolli etc
8 egg whites @ 128 calories it's actually more than that...136 per actual counts per USDA and chicken breast 112g @ 150 calories? 145g has 250cal so 112g has 193 calories...
quick adds in January

and you have gone from 1200 to 1400 to 1600 and back and forth...in less than 2.5months.

Accurate logging isn't just about weighing 90% of the time and logging everything you can choose entries that are wrong...

as mentioned instead of trying a new type of eating tighten up your logging...

Do you not understand that if you know how much 1 tablespoon weighs that it's ok to log in tablespoons. MY GOD! One tablespoon of almond butter is 16g. Therefore if I weigh 16g of almond butter and log 1 tablespoon it is the SAME. I would think that someone that has been here that long would understand such a basic idea.

Thank you for all your tips but if you look at the TITLE OF THE POST I was curious about ketogenic diets because of cravings I have been having.

You seem awfully defensive of your logging habits, given that the people on this thread are just trying to help you.

Unless you have already made up your mind to do this ketosis thing and don't actually want to hear a differing opinion...which is your right.

I can't speak for whether or not a ketogenic diet will be good for you, but I can say that it is absolutely terrible if you plan on doing any sort of endurance sport (distance running, cycling, etc). I am a distance runner and have seen multiple people fall apart when they try this lifestyle while doing endurance sports. Just something to keep in mind if you do it.

if you are having "hunger issues" at 1200 a day then I would assume that you would still have said hunger issues on keto, low carb, etc....

So when you were low carb are you saying you were still hungry all the time?

Please note I said "I assume"

never done low carb and have no use for it.

hmmm, and I see frequent posts from you opposing this eating plan..... You've never done it and never had a use for it, which is totally understandable; but how is it that you have such opposition to something you have never needed nor tried?

I really don't understand how some people here think they know it all for everyone and with no personal experience. It's very annoying.

if you are having "hunger issues" at 1200 a day then I would assume that you would still have said hunger issues on keto, low carb, etc....

So when you were low carb are you saying you were still hungry all the time?

Please note I said "I assume"

never done low carb and have no use for it.

hmmm, and I see frequent posts from you opposing this eating plan..... You've never done it and never had a use for it, which is totally understandable; but how is it that you have such opposition to something you have never needed nor tried?

I really don't understand how some people here think they know it all for everyone and with no personal experience. It's very annoying.

That's pretty common around here.

Lots of people who are vehement, damn near rabid, about eating plans that they are totally ignorant to.

It's pathological.

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

But the OP IS having problems keeping under her calories with how hungry she feels. He didn't say "Whoever diets any other way is always uncontrollably starving". How you feel on your low calorie or whatever way you choose to eat diet is irrelevant because you aren't having the same issue OP is.

OP - check out the groups for keto or low carb groups. That would be a good start to find out more info and food ideas.

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My only advise to people is that restricting a whole food group "carbs" because one believes they are "bad" is not the best course..when a simple calorie deficit will allow one to lose weight...baring any medical condition that would make one sensitive to carbs...

ETA - I questioned the OP as to why she wanted to start this diet and never opposed her doing it. I simply said that inaccurate logging is the cause of her issue, and if she did not correct the inaccurate logging, then whatever diet she chooses is going to end in failure.

Given that she stated that she's having issues with cravings and binging suggests that she's a good candidate to try a low (or lower) carb diet -- up to and including keto. No, she may not have a medical diagnosis of something, but if you need to lose a few pounds, you don't need a doctor to tell you you're fat in order to start counting calories, either.

Carbs aren't inherently evil, no, but many people find lowering their carbs is a good way to make maintaining a deficit, and controlling issues with binging, easier and more sustainable. It's not going to hurt the OP to try it for a month and see how she feels and how it works for her.

OP - Even short of going completely ketogenic, I've found reducing my carbs and increasing my fat intake has done wonders in controlling my hunger and more easily meeting my protein goal. I'm also one for whom doing so has greatly reduced my cravings for foods that I can easily overdo and easily put me over my calories. I went from barely being able to eat "only" 2000 calories (and wanting to gnaw my arm off), to struggling to eat that much without feeling like I'm forcing-feeding myself.

I definitely think it's worth a try to see if it has any effect on your binging and hunger issues. Try it for a month and see how it works for you. If it doesn't work, then you can simply find another strategy.

In addition to what's already been recommended, you might want to check out Dr. Peter Attia's blog - http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight - he's been keto since May 2011 and has seen tremendous results from it. He's also got a ton of good information on ketosis and the keto diet.

I've recently started having binges in the late evenings. I've read about Ketogenic diets having a satiating effect... and now I'm just curious.

Yep, its true. Since going Keto in January, I never have times where I am uncontrollably starving. Kinda hungry? Sure. Starving to the point that I want to eat all the things? No. Never.

I don't eat a keto diet and I'm never uncontrollably starving either. How do you explain this?

Ever heard of an hormone called insulin. Be thankful, you don't have to go through those spikes. Every person is different, one way to handle uncontrollable starving to keep the insulin levels flat. Which is what Keto diets do.

Protein is also highly insulinogenic...

Yes, if you eat asstons of it.

Which is why Ketogenic diets have 15% protein from cals. If I go over the protein levels, usually over 100-110gm, I get kicked out of ketosis. If you are having 30% of cals from protein (like in the above study) there is no way you can be in ketosis unless starving. Insulin will raise with high protein content, not necessarily as high as carbs. But might be enough to kick you out of ketosis.

Sorry but I don't think that's right at all. Not all ketogenic diets are "15% cals from protein". Your protein requirements are determined by your lean body mass and the percentage of your calories that come from protein are determined by both your lean body mass and your caloric intake/deficit. A blanket statement that "15% is right for everyone" is nonsense.

You're right, technically, but you're also missing the point -- protein is insulinogenic, therefore too much will knock you out of ketosis. 15% is an average number for ketogenic diets. For some people it will be higher, for others, it will be lower (from what I've seen, it generally works out to the ballpark of 100g). A ketogenic diet is enough protein to support muscle retention/building, without eating so much that you drop out of ketosis.

My point was that "so much [protein] that you drop out of ketosis" is perhaps more than you think and certainly more than is being suggested in this thread, at least for some people. The notion that you cannot be in a state of ketosis at 30% protein without starving simply wrong.

He also never said "15% is right for everyone." Just like 40/30/30 isn't right for everyone, veg*nism isn't right for everyone, and so on. 15% is a general guideline based on averages. The exact amount of protein and carbs to cross the line between ketosis and not is going to be slightly different from person to person. I don't think anyone on this thread has said otherwise.

That said, 30% protein is generally only feasible to do while still in ketosis if you're eating about 2000 calories or less. If you're a size and/or activity level where 2000 is a realistic calorie requirement, then 30% is still on the upper end of what you'd need even by the LBM calculation (about 150g at 2000 calories).

So you're saying that 2000 calories is the equivalent of starving? Wow, I never knew.