Dairy Alarmism

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  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

    With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

    Taking a crazy guess here.... You've never been on a dairy farm, have you?

    I lived on a dairy farm in Germany for 6 years actually where the cows were treated as humanely as you possibly can treat an animal that you are forcibly impregnating and then stealing it's milk and separating the mother and baby from each other.

    No wonder you hate dairy farms.

    That is not how they ran things on my uncle's dairy farm. Mothers and their calves were not separated like that. The cows that went into the dairy barn were not moms. The moms stayed in their own barn until the calf was ready for weaning. Also, cows were not forcibly impregnated. My uncle always let nature take its course. Nature finds a way, every time, without the need for force or cruelty.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    man i really want a glass of milk right now. bad.

    Chocolate milk...
  • _John_
    _John_ Posts: 8,642 Member
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    man i really want a glass of milk right now. bad.

    Chocolate milk...

    I had a glass last night after polishing off my sirloin.
  • jim180155
    jim180155 Posts: 769 Member
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    I read what it's about and it mentions you can't go there and video tape/take pictures. No where did I see that people aren't allowed in.

    I didn't realize it was contagious, but it looks like you caught my quoting problem.

    I didn't see anything against going in either. I read just one of the articles, an article from Forbes, thinking they'd be the most Ag-friendly, but they weren't in this case.

    Whether or not you can legally visit one of the sites may be beside the point, since I'm pretty sure you'd still need explicit permission from the owner or face jail time for trespassing. But laws prohibiting photography is alarming, IMO. Even a pro-Ag person should be wondering what they're trying to hide.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    Links to where we can read those laws?
    "Just google ag-gag laws. I know that my home state, Iowa, has laws like that. I know that Colorado has some ag-gag laws, and so does Idaho. Most of them are relatively new. Even without the law, the businesses wont let you in to see their operations."




    Interesting.

    I mean, in spite of the crickets-chirping-dead-silence-from-the-fact-hungry, it's interesting.

    Ag-gag is a term used for a variety of anti-whistleblower laws in the United States of America

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag



    Yes, these laws exist, but here in Missouri, you can definitely visit dairy farms to see how they operate. Before my uncle passed, we visited his often. Honestly, though, my favorite part was the hay barn (for playing hide and seek) and his big "Murphy's Law" poster by his desk in the dairy barn.



    Here is the law in my state:
    Missouri's bill:

    A person commits the crime of agricultural production facility fraud if he or she willfully obtains access to an agricultural production facility by false pretenses or knowingly makes a false statement or misrepresentation as part of an application for employment at an agricultural production facility with the intent to commit an act not authorized by the owner.[62]

    Basically, it reasserts that fraud is a crime.



    And compare that to Iowa:
    Iowa's bill:

    1. A person is guilty of agricultural production facility fraud if the person willfully does any of the following:
    a. Obtains access to an agricultural production facility by false pretenses.
    b. Makes a false statement or representation as part of an application or agreement to be employed at an agricultural production facility, if the person knows the statement to be false, and makes the statement with an intent to commit an act not authorized by the owner of the agricultural production facility, knowing that the act is not authorized.[63]

    MO based its bill off of IA's bill.
  • Eoghann
    Eoghann Posts: 130 Member
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    Well if you don't like dairy you can eliminate it from your diet with no worries. On the other hand if you like it... you can consume it without any worries as well.

    Same rule as everything else. Make it part of a balanced diet. If your food intake for the day consists of cheese, milk and ice-cream... then you may have a problem.

    Oh and the... it's for baby cows thing... I'll let you in on a secret. There isn't a food on this planet that was specifically created for humans to eat.

    Pay no attention to the food fads.
  • _John_
    _John_ Posts: 8,642 Member
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    posted before reading prior posts
  • jim180155
    jim180155 Posts: 769 Member
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    Links to where we can read those laws?
    "Just google ag-gag laws. I know that my home state, Iowa, has laws like that. I know that Colorado has some ag-gag laws, and so does Idaho. Most of them are relatively new. Even without the law, the businesses wont let you in to see their operations."




    Interesting.

    I mean, in spite of the crickets-chirping-dead-silence-from-the-fact-hungry, it's interesting.

    Ag-gag is a term used for a variety of anti-whistleblower laws in the United States of America

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag



    Yes, these laws exist, but here in Missouri, you can definitely visit dairy farms to see how they operate. Before my uncle passed, we visited his often. Honestly, though, my favorite part was the hay barn (for playing hide and seek) and his big "Murphy's Law" poster by his desk in the dairy barn.



    Here is the law in my state:
    Missouri's bill:

    A person commits the crime of agricultural production facility fraud if he or she willfully obtains access to an agricultural production facility by false pretenses or knowingly makes a false statement or misrepresentation as part of an application for employment at an agricultural production facility with the intent to commit an act not authorized by the owner.[62]

    Basically, it reasserts that fraud is a crime.

    I'm guessing your uncle would grant access to anyone curious about the inner workings of his operation. But other operations that are separating mother from calf and/or artificially inseminating cows and/or using antibiotics and/or .... The other guys would just deny access.

    And the Missouri law you quoted I still find troubling. Why does that law exist? Are there similar laws for office parks, industrial complexes, pizza houses, retail stores, etc.? Why does Ag need protection?

    Again, it makes me think that there is a deliberate effort to hide the actual operations from the general public.
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
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    Cows.png
  • _John_
    _John_ Posts: 8,642 Member
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    Again, it makes me think that there is a deliberate effort to hide the actual operations from the general public.

    I can't think of many industries that would welcome full access to the public that was just curious how things worked there...especially an industry that by its nature, and no matter how well they did things, was known to have people that disagreed with everything they stood for and their entire reason for existence.
  • Marcia315
    Marcia315 Posts: 460 Member
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    This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

    With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

    Taking a crazy guess here.... You've never been on a dairy farm, have you?

    Yeah, you do know that every farm operates like the one they feature on an agenda pushing documentary right? Visiting a real farm to get actual facts is out of the question, I mean how the hell would that support a failing argument?

    =D
    Visiting a real dairy farm IS out of the question. Big business is in bed with the g-ment, and has created many laws disallowing you from knowing what is going on behind closed doors. In many states, ag-gag laws make it a crime to use surreptitious means to get onto a farm, make it crime to whistleblow about bad conditions for both the workers and the animals, and good luck getting an invite.

    Go ahead and call up a large farm and say "I'd like to visit your farm to see what conditions the animals/workers are experiencing" and see how quickly you get hung up on.

    Some smaller farms might let you on, and if you continue to eat dairy, those would be the farms to patronize. Like Joel Salatin's farm.

    Yes, as a business owner, I let random strange people mill about my property, not knowing if they will mess with my inventory, steal from me, or break some of my machinery. My $1,000,000 investment is irrelevant here.

    And BTW, I have large commercial dairy farms as client. The do allow tours. You just need to ask them.
  • jim180155
    jim180155 Posts: 769 Member
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    Again, it makes me think that there is a deliberate effort to hide the actual operations from the general public.

    I can't think of many industries that would welcome full access to the public that was just curious how things worked there...especially an industry that by its nature, and no matter how well they did things, was known to have people that disagreed with everything they stood for and their entire reason for existence.

    True, but how many industries have laws on the books to protect their secrecy? There are some obvious examples, like those related to national security, but what is the justification for silencing whistleblowers when it comes to Ag?
  • _John_
    _John_ Posts: 8,642 Member
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    True, but how many industries have laws on the books to protect their secrecy? There are some obvious examples, like those related to national security, but what is the justification for silencing whistleblowers when it comes to Ag?

    I would guess lab animal facilities might have similar laws to protect them.
  • fheppy
    fheppy Posts: 64 Member
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    I love dairy. When i was younger and lived with parents/grandma i often drank 2litres of milk + cheese + cottage cheese + ice cream in a day.

    Now i have less dairy as i read dairy contains animal hormones which stimulate more testosterone in the body and as someone with PCOS i do not need extra testosterone, i got more than enough.
    I did not read scientific study about it though, so i can't say its 100% true. but its makes sense to me the same way as tap water contains hormones which arenot/cannot be filtered no matter how much chloride you use to clean the water to make it safely drinkable.
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
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    I read what it's about and it mentions you can't go there and video tape/take pictures. No where did I see that people aren't allowed in.

    I didn't realize it was contagious, but it looks like you caught my quoting problem.

    I didn't see anything against going in either. I read just one of the articles, an article from Forbes, thinking they'd be the most Ag-friendly, but they weren't in this case.

    Whether or not you can legally visit one of the sites may be beside the point, since I'm pretty sure you'd still need explicit permission from the owner or face jail time for trespassing. But laws prohibiting photography is alarming, IMO. Even a pro-Ag person should be wondering what they're trying to hide.

    Probably nothing. But some organizations (*cough* PETA *cough*) would just love to get some footage they could snip and paste together to suit their agenda. Heck, they can take a dog training video and make it look like abuse. In fact, they think owning animals as pets should be outlawed.
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
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    This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

    With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

    Taking a crazy guess here.... You've never been on a dairy farm, have you?

    Yeah, you do know that every farm operates like the one they feature on an agenda pushing documentary right? Visiting a real farm to get actual facts is out of the question, I mean how the hell would that support a failing argument?

    =D
    Visiting a real dairy farm IS out of the question. Big business is in bed with the g-ment, and has created many laws disallowing you from knowing what is going on behind closed doors. In many states, ag-gag laws make it a crime to use surreptitious means to get onto a farm, make it crime to whistleblow about bad conditions for both the workers and the animals, and good luck getting an invite.

    Go ahead and call up a large farm and say "I'd like to visit your farm to see what conditions the animals/workers are experiencing" and see how quickly you get hung up on.

    Some smaller farms might let you on, and if you continue to eat dairy, those would be the farms to patronize. Like Joel Salatin's farm.

    Yes, as a business owner, I let random strange people mill about my property, not knowing if they will mess with my inventory, steal from me, or break some of my machinery. My $1,000,000 investment is irrelevant here.

    And BTW, I have large commercial dairy farms as client. The do allow tours. You just need to ask them.

    Imagine that. :smile:
  • JenSD6
    JenSD6 Posts: 454 Member
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    This will probably get lost in this long *kitten* post so here goes.

    With every cent you spend on dairy, you are supporting a cruel industry that abuses animals. (This goes for eggs and meat too.) Health benefits aside, this is all the reason I need to stay away from the stuff.

    Taking a crazy guess here.... You've never been on a dairy farm, have you?

    Yeah, you do know that every farm operates like the one they feature on an agenda pushing documentary right? Visiting a real farm to get actual facts is out of the question, I mean how the hell would that support a failing argument?

    =D
    Visiting a real dairy farm IS out of the question. Big business is in bed with the g-ment, and has created many laws disallowing you from knowing what is going on behind closed doors. In many states, ag-gag laws make it a crime to use surreptitious means to get onto a farm, make it crime to whistleblow about bad conditions for both the workers and the animals, and good luck getting an invite.

    Go ahead and call up a large farm and say "I'd like to visit your farm to see what conditions the animals/workers are experiencing" and see how quickly you get hung up on.

    Some smaller farms might let you on, and if you continue to eat dairy, those would be the farms to patronize. Like Joel Salatin's farm.

    Yes, as a business owner, I let random strange people mill about my property, not knowing if they will mess with my inventory, steal from me, or break some of my machinery. My $1,000,000 investment is irrelevant here.

    And BTW, I have large commercial dairy farms as client. The do allow tours. You just need to ask them.

    And can you imagine how fast a farmer would be facing a law suit if, god forbid, someone who shouldn't be on their farm gets hurt? People shouldn't just be randomly wandering around the big equipment and big animals. That's asking for an accident to happen.
  • jim180155
    jim180155 Posts: 769 Member
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    True, but how many industries have laws on the books to protect their secrecy? There are some obvious examples, like those related to national security, but what is the justification for silencing whistleblowers when it comes to Ag?

    I would guess lab animal facilities might have similar laws to protect them.

    I got more or less the same response from QuietBloom:
    "Probably nothing. But some organizations (*cough* PETA *cough*) would just love to get some footage they could snip and paste together to suit their agenda. Heck, they can take a dog training video and make it look like abuse. In fact, they think owning animals as pets should be outlawed. "

    It seems you two assume that any controversial industry or organization will have specific laws guarding their secrets. Is that true? Do we have laws preventing access to and photography of abortion clinics? Churches? Oil wells? Gun manufacturers? National borders? The list could go on forever.

    I know that in some cases access is restricted, and for good reason, but it's done by individual owners. But I'm not aware of any laws prohibiting photography, nor any laws beyond general trespassing/ consent of owner regarding access.

    Are there any such laws that you're aware of, or are we just going to assume that there aren't because it suits your pre-existing opinions?
  • jim180155
    jim180155 Posts: 769 Member
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    And can you imagine how fast a farmer would be facing a law suit if, god forbid, someone who shouldn't be on their farm gets hurt? People shouldn't just be randomly wandering around the big equipment and big animals. That's asking for an accident to happen.

    There are all kinds of reasons to restrict access to any business or property. My company doesn't allow people to just come in and wander around. I wouldn't let strangers into my house either, whether they're curious or not. A potential intruder to either my company or home is a trespasser. But my company needs no specific legislation. There is nothing legislated that makes us or me in my home special.

    Note: And anybody can apply for a job, whether they actually want a job here or not. We don't give out sensitive secrets to interviewees. But again, there is no specific legislation taking things to a higher level (fraud) if someone interviews for a job and then doesn't take the job when & if offered.

    Why does Ag need extra levels of protection?

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