always friendzoned - advice?

mumblemagic wrote:

However, I notice that you do not refute feeling 'more entitled to knowing what women think and feel than the women themselves'. Am I to assume that you do feel entitled to know more about what women think and feel? Or that you actually mean you don't feel more entitled to know more about what women think and feel than women, but you do feel your advice on how to be a guy dating women is valid?

I think you missed a comment of mine:
"...I don't know what anyone else thinks. I do, however, go by the response I get and have to extrapolate thoughts or feelings from there."

We are talking about dating. So, I don't know what is going on in her mind, but I can tell if she is reciprocating, just being nice, or being cold. There are a lot of verbal and physical cues to use as an indication of whether she is digging it, hoping I'll hurry up and leave, or totally not hip to the idea of spending any more time with me. Also, I am terrified of making someone uncomfortable. I don't know if that's part of being from the South or how my mother raised me or if it's something else, but it scares the crap out of me. So I am far more likely to interpret certain phrases and motions in a conversation with a woman as disinterest. Of course, that's just me.

I never used the word 'entitled.' What I do think I have to offer, having dated quite a few women, over what a woman would be able to offer is just experience being a man dating women.
I've said this from the beginning. I keep trying metaphors and I don't want to get anything throw at me---If you are learning to cut hair, do you learn from your customers or do you learn from other barbers/hairstylists? If you are learning to deliver babies, do you learn from your patients or do you learn from others who have delivered babies? All I am saying is that while you know how one woman thinks, and I know what characteristics and qualities and behaviors are the most likely to lead me into having a relationship with a woman.

And I think that is the information the original post was asking for.

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.

Maybe the man was just excited about all the cakes in the bakery window that he could not control himself. We've all been there.

I really enjoy how you try to spin this mans disgusting behavior and my onbipus fear and revulsion in this harassment into a joke.

Thanks dude. /sarcasm

Are you coming on to me?

Go fall down a hole.

I have not read every post in this thread, but over the last few pages you have basically hinted towards pretty much all men being potential rapists that are somehow preying on you and making you feel unsafe where ever you go. I just don't think this kind of language does either men or woman in favours.

Actually, I very clearly said it happens to both men and women. I also stated that both men and women have different preferences and have never once said that men are monsters, and everyone harasses women. In my experience I have only been harassed by men, but I have deep respect for men in general, as well as women. In fact, the only time I was even a little bit rude was when you decided to make light of an issue that I have had.
It was me complimenting men and women on their responses to this thread that sparked this segue.

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ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.

Maybe the man was just excited about all the cakes in the bakery window that he could not control himself. We've all been there.

I really enjoy how you try to spin this mans disgusting behavior and my onbipus fear and revulsion in this harassment into a joke.

Thanks dude. /sarcasm

Are you coming on to me?

Go fall down a hole.

I have not read every post in this thread, but over the last few pages you have basically hinted towards pretty much all men being potential rapists that are somehow preying on you and making you feel unsafe where ever you go. I just don't think this kind of language does either men or woman in favours.

Actually, I very clearly said it happens to both men and women. I also stated that both men and women have different preferences and have never once said that men are monsters, and everyone harasses women. In my experience I have only been harassed by men, but I have deep respect for men in general, as well as women. In fact, the only time I was even a little bit rude was when you decided to make light of an issue that I have had.
It was me complimenting men and women on their responses to this thread that sparked this segue.

Fair enough, but I just noticed that you have just started another thread about street harassment from guys trying to rally everyone around in portraying all men in a bad light. I'm sorry if these incidents seem to follow you around to the point that you mentioned having to get police escorts on the way home and not liking going to bars/clubs because men are harassing you etc. Everybody has the right to feel safe. This constant negative attention from males must be very difficult for you, but most men simply do not behave that way. The guy in the Bakery sounds more like a mental health problem than a male specific one.

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

slideaway1 wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.

Maybe the man was just excited about all the cakes in the bakery window that he could not control himself. We've all been there.

I really enjoy how you try to spin this mans disgusting behavior and my onbipus fear and revulsion in this harassment into a joke.

Thanks dude. /sarcasm

Are you coming on to me?

Go fall down a hole.

I have not read every post in this thread, but over the last few pages you have basically hinted towards pretty much all men being potential rapists that are somehow preying on you and making you feel unsafe where ever you go. I just don't think this kind of language does either men or woman in favours.

Actually, I very clearly said it happens to both men and women. I also stated that both men and women have different preferences and have never once said that men are monsters, and everyone harasses women. In my experience I have only been harassed by men, but I have deep respect for men in general, as well as women. In fact, the only time I was even a little bit rude was when you decided to make light of an issue that I have had.
It was me complimenting men and women on their responses to this thread that sparked this segue.

Fair enough, but I just noticed that you have just started another thread about street harassment from guys trying to rally everyone around in portraying all men in a bad light. I'm sorry if these incidents seem to follow you around to the point that you mentioned having to get police escorts on the way home and not liking going to bars/clubs because men are harassing you etc. Everybody has the right to feel safe. This constant negative attention from males must be very difficult for you, but most men simply do not behave that way. The guy in the Bakery sounds more like a mental health problem than a male specific one.

I did indeed. Not to portray men. Because I didn't even mention gender. In the thread I say it's a show of hands. It happens to me a lot. If it happens to other people as much, or as little. Or if I am a minority.

And I agree that men and women who behave this way are a minority. I have a wonderful fiancé and equally wonderful aquaintances and daily interactions with lovely men and women.

There has been guys in my life who I have not been interested in but who I will continue being friendly to if I see them around town or if they talk to me because they scare me. certain guys will freak out when you reject them. I wouldn't say I'm leading them on, I would say if you're going to approach me in a public setting or when I'm with friends then I won't be a jerk or tell you to leave because certain guys take that the wrong way. Once a guy at college asked me out and when I told him no he got two of his friends to corner me when I was walking out of the dorm a week later - luckily I started screaming and security came. So pretty much don't be so desperate that it's creepy. Like read the signs because some girls won't tell you straight out that they don't like you unless you directly ask them out. Be direct in your intentions.

(Sorry if this is off topic or rambling)

Well, I live in a rather working-class area of Athens, Greece, and a legitimately can't go to the local gym because of the behaviour of some of the guys. Since small gyms here are 90% male -with the exception of special aerobic classes blah blah- there will always be groups of aggressively assertive bros approaching every single "new girl". And thing is, they are normally not bad guys, but when in groups and in a sweaty, athletic environment, they also become competitive with one another and try to prove how "alpha" they are, and that just makes them act worse.

I used to weight-lift a while back, and there was a guy always there same times of the evening as I, so we'd greet one another. Eventually he cornered me and started telling me that I was giving him mixed signals, and "why was I leading him on when he actually asked around and found out I was engaged? Was it an ego thing?".

Leading him on? I was literally just nodding silent greetings. The idea that he was entitled to something or that I had promised something because I had acknowledged him like any civilized being would blew my mind.

But yes, I am surprised that most women and even men in this thread don't have that kind of attitude, and even those like TheLegendaryBrandonHarris that I felt sounded initially quite skeevy actually turned out to be surprisingly not so once they expounded their point of views.

I am kind of proud of MFP now?

The OP is in good hands.

amyrebeccah wrote: »

The main thing I keep seeing repeated is that my comment about women not knowing what they want is false. But I'm not wrong in this. The reason why is because people can make a list of things they want in a partner, yet end up attracted to someone completely different. "I don't know, there was just something about him/her that I really liked."

People aren't mad at you because you've said that people don't know what they want. They are mad at you because you've said women don't. Do you honestly not see how condescending that comes off?

The advice I give is based on experience with what leads to a relationship vs what leads to being "Friend Zoned." If you've never been a man who has successfully dated women, then you might not be the best source of advice for a man trying, unsuccessfully, to date women. I know you won't like that idea. I know I've made myself unpopular in sharing these ideas.

You aren't unpopular because you've given a guy advice. Women are pointing out, as women (who may have been subject to someone who treated the "friend zone" like a purgatory they earn their way out of), that that's not only unattractive but unfair. It's terming a woman's honest opinion as though it was the penalty box, and love as something that can be manipulated away.

I like you.

theredhead77 wrote: »

Kalici wrote: »

asflatasapancake wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.

Where in the heck are you visiting in the U.S.? That is certainly not typical. I'm guessing a bigger city?

I've had things like that happen in no where Virginia. Where are you existing as a woman that nothing like that ever happens to you?

My friend and I were followed once in Ensanada leaving the cruise dock and another friend and I were followed by a pimp in Hawaii who thought we stole his money. While neither of these men should have followed us In HI my friend and I should have taken a cab instead of walking to our hotel through an area full of prostitutes and homeless people at 3am. It's called personal responsibility.

What if you're too poor to afford a cab? What if your job has you walking home at 3 a.m? What if you live in that neighborhood? Is it your fault then?

theredhead77 wrote: »

Kalici wrote: »

asflatasapancake wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

mumblemagic wrote: »

ButBurgersAreDelicious wrote: »

I wish I could edit my post but since I cannot. HOLY JESUS, am I ever proud to read the responses on this particular thread from the men and the women. What a breath of fresh air, especially since where I am from, people are constantly telling me that I am putting them in the friend zone, or that I am a prude or I'm crazy for yelling at people who harass me on the street.

I actually found this a really stressful part of my 1 trip to the US. In the UK, guys tend to be a bit more reserved. This has its own issues, in that the nice guys you actually want to be chatted up by are not usually the ones that chat you up. However, when I was in the US, every day, at least 5 guys tried to chat me up. Most were nice, but I just wanted to get on and do my tourist thing, unhassled. One guy who I was simply in the hotel lift (elevator) with, had not spoken to prior to getting in the lift, tried to invite himself back to my room. I had to go two floors up and walk along the hotel and down to my floor to be sure he had not followed me. This gave me a much greater appreciation for British reservedness.

I know this feeling intimately. I've been followed home by groups of men. I've had to zip into police stations and ask for rides home because they would yell and shout, and threaten to rape me if I didn't respond to them. I've had to stay in a bakery for two hours while a man I didn't know licked and humped a window, until he left.
Unfortunately, this happens daily and are not the worst examples of what has happened.

Where in the heck are you visiting in the U.S.? That is certainly not typical. I'm guessing a bigger city?

I've had things like that happen in no where Virginia. Where are you existing as a woman that nothing like that ever happens to you?

I live in a beach community with a reputation for having a high population of douche-bags. Lived here my entire life, never been followed, never had people threaten to rape me for ignoring them.

Maybe I'm weird but I would have called 911 if I saw person (man or woman, who I knew or didn't know) was licking and humping a window for hours. Or asked someone to call 911. Or called 911 as a bystander who saw this person.

My friend and I were followed once in Ensanada leaving the cruise dock and another friend and I were followed by a pimp in Hawaii who thought we stole his money. While neither of these men should have followed us In HI my friend and I should have taken a cab instead of walking to our hotel through an area full of prostitutes and homeless people at 3am. It's called personal responsibility.

I did call the police. They don't give priority to street harassment unless it becomes violent.

And I agree about personal responsibility, but the factors don't excuse the behaviour. "Personal responsibility" is fine and good. It's great to be cautious. I work during the day and get home during the day. *kitten* like this happens walking home at 4pm. If I stay late, I get a ride.

lol, The Onion gets my point:


http://www.theonion.com/articles/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someone-shes-not-inter,1507/

One thing to remember is that every single romantic relationship either ends in a dissolution or a lifetime together.

lydiakitten, it's a joke.

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