Getting discouraged. Lean bulk or cut? What should I do?
Replies
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What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.
Yes, strength is bad. Getting stronger certainly will not allow you to progress more from a hypertrophy stand point.
^ Sarcasm
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LolBroScience wrote: »What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.
Yes, strength is bad. Getting stronger certainly will not allow you to progress more from a hypertrophy stand point.
^ Sarcasm
Ha, agreed. A lot of people use strength programs to get the aesthetics they want. I believe even usmc (ugh can't think of the rest of her screen name right now) recommends strength programmers for beginners, and then after a good strength base, look into hypertrophy specific programs. She'd be a good resource though as she competes as a bodybuilder.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.
Yes, strength is bad. Getting stronger certainly will not allow you to progress more from a hypertrophy stand point.
^ Sarcasm
Ha, agreed. A lot of people use strength programs to get the aesthetics they want. I believe even usmc (ugh can't think of the rest of her screen name right now) recommends strength programmers for beginners, and then after a good strength base, look into hypertrophy specific programs. She'd be a good resource though as she competes as a bodybuilder.
Unfortunately.... she, myself, and multiple others have pointed that out to he OP and it doesn't seem to make a difference.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »What do you guys think of this Push/Pull split?
I looked into Candito, and I worry that it's still a little too "Powerlifting" for me, as well as Wendler. I don't know, I guess I just want the aesthetics more than the strength. But maybe that's a really bad mindset to have. I'm lost and confused all over again.
Yes, strength is bad. Getting stronger certainly will not allow you to progress more from a hypertrophy stand point.
^ Sarcasm
Ha, agreed. A lot of people use strength programs to get the aesthetics they want. I believe even usmc (ugh can't think of the rest of her screen name right now) recommends strength programmers for beginners, and then after a good strength base, look into hypertrophy specific programs. She'd be a good resource though as she competes as a bodybuilder.
Unfortunately.... she, myself, and multiple others have pointed that out to he OP and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
I think most would think I'm on an aesthetics program which is far from the truth. I do about 8-12 exercises per workout and of those 2 or 3 are body building. The rest are power lifting and Olympic lifting competition or assistance lifts. Once you have a good strength base on just need a few finishing exercises to bring up your weaknesses and look good.0 -
I guess I just don't know if I'm considered to have a "good" strength base at this point, and when it's ok to push past the strength phase and move to a more hypertrophy style training.
My bench is 185 5x5, but my squat is still very weak. Is it a bad idea to move into hypertrophy rep ranges for some lifts, but remain in 5x5 style for others?
Also, i continue to have little muscle mass, but a bit of fat I would like to get rid of. I am still stuck. I'm honestly about to give up, I dont know what to do. I am tired of being a slave to calories and the scale. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf of my life and not be so obsessive because i get very carried away with it. Is there any wya I can approach this at a more reasonable way?
I am comparing myself to guys with much "rounder" looks. I read an interesting article here:
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/bodybuilding-vs-aesthetics/
it talks alot about muscle/bone/tendon lengths, so while I feel I look thin with no muscle mass, I wonder if I will ever get to the point where I have a large "rounded" frame. My arms are only 14'' flexted, but after years and years of training them, they have not grown. Even people with the dumbest training routines can grow, but mine can't. I'm wondering if i should just cut and get the definition, and that's all I can do.
I know it varies person to person, but my stomach has no abs and my body lacks as much definition as I'd like. I can post another photo soon, but just some thoughts I'm having.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats
The idea is to do your 5x5 and then ADD assistance work in hypertrophy range on top of your 5x5. So, do your 5x5 work and then do DB OHP, curls, shrugs, etc. at 3x6-12 or whatever.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats
The idea is to do your 5x5 and then ADD assistance work in hypertrophy range on top of your 5x5. So, do your 5x5 work and then do DB OHP, curls, shrugs, etc. at 3x6-12 or whatever.
Yes, I understand. Maybe I am not asking my question clearly enough.
A.) When is it OK for me to move past a standard 5x5 training program (ICF 5x5) and move on to a more hypertrophy based program, to build up muscle mass? and B.) is it ok to mix up the training styles?
Example:
Squat 5x5
Bench 8x3
OHP 8x3
Bent over BB Row 5x5
Dips 8x3
etc....
I know they say to continue on strength-based programs until you stop making progress. Well, I have begun to really slow down any progress I might have had in the first place. BUT I am still relatively small for my liking.
I weigh 190 lbs. That is a great weight for me. But I do not look like I weight 190 lbs when I see other photos of guys. So the weight is good, but my ratio is off.
Does that make any sense?0 -
Where are you at since the original post in this thread?
What were your start lift weights at that time, and what are they now?
Have you gained weight, and if so, how much?
How many calories are you currently eating?0 -
Ok i don't get it. If you're gonna lift you're gonna get a little stronger. What's not to like. Its like saying "I want to have a tattoo but I don"t want scars." (shakes head in wonder) . so you want to be an aesthetic muscular weakling? Jeebus help me.0
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From https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout:Can I change anything?
Unless you are unable to do this program for medical reasons: do not alter the program. You are a novice, and quite simply you don't know what you're doing. If you did you wouldn't be looking for a workout.
If you want to go changing everything to fit what you believe will give you better results, go post it in the workout programs forum so everyone can refer you right back to a proven program that works, such as this one.
andWhat about rest between sets?
Break times between sets are 3-5 minutes for the 5x5 sets and 1-2 minutes for the 3x8 sets.
In other words, don't screw with the program. And you can rest for up to 5 minutes for the main lifts - you don't have to keep it at 3.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats
The idea is to do your 5x5 and then ADD assistance work in hypertrophy range on top of your 5x5. So, do your 5x5 work and then do DB OHP, curls, shrugs, etc. at 3x6-12 or whatever.
Hey powerlifter...i like your answer. I was wondering lately if i should do more isolated exercises "right now" while I'm doing 5x5 as someone new-ish who is getting stronget but is still carrying sone blubber (haha "blubber"), that is.0 -
Carry on cuttin bro0
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LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats
The idea is to do your 5x5 and then ADD assistance work in hypertrophy range on top of your 5x5. So, do your 5x5 work and then do DB OHP, curls, shrugs, etc. at 3x6-12 or whatever.
Yes, I understand. Maybe I am not asking my question clearly enough.
A.) When is it OK for me to move past a standard 5x5 training program (ICF 5x5) and move on to a more hypertrophy based program, to build up muscle mass? and B.) is it ok to mix up the training styles?
Example:
Squat 5x5
Bench 8x3
OHP 8x3
Bent over BB Row 5x5
Dips 8x3
etc....
I know they say to continue on strength-based programs until you stop making progress. Well, I have begun to really slow down any progress I might have had in the first place. BUT I am still relatively small for my liking.
I weigh 190 lbs. That is a great weight for me. But I do not look like I weight 190 lbs when I see other photos of guys. So the weight is good, but my ratio is off.
Does that make any sense?
Whenever YOU want to. If you're going to follow the program, follow it as is. If you're not going to follow the program, find another one that you'll stick to.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »Thanks for the advice everyone.
I was doing a strength based routine but I felt like it wasn't really a good path to my goal of more size rather than a focus on more strength. I know both go hand in hand, but when I bulk I want to focus on hypertrophy.
So the consensus is that I'm not misguided for thinking that more of a cut would benefit me? Even with measly 14" in flexed arms and 39 in chest?
You can focus on both and hit a variety of rep ranges. Program your assistance and auxiliary lifts in a higher rep range than your core lifts for strength.
Quoting myself from my response on page one....
Yes I always knew that you should do the main compound lifts in more strength ranges, and aux lifts in high rep ranges. But, for example, if I want my shoulders to grow more, is it OK to move that to a higher rep range in OHP, and keep my squatting at 5x5? Likewise, with Bench? Those are pretty big compound lifts, but I want to develop bigger chest and shoulder muscles, while continuing strength with my squats
The idea is to do your 5x5 and then ADD assistance work in hypertrophy range on top of your 5x5. So, do your 5x5 work and then do DB OHP, curls, shrugs, etc. at 3x6-12 or whatever.
Hey powerlifter...i like your answer. I was wondering lately if i should do more isolated exercises "right now" while I'm doing 5x5 as someone new-ish who is getting stronget but is still carrying sone blubber (haha "blubber"), that is.
I'll PM you.0 -
Man this thread never dies. OP, if your diet is on point - you will get muscle gains doing 5x5. I wouldn't think about changing exercise rep ranges and would instead focus on following a decent program, putting all your effort into getting stronger (by either adding weight or adding reps).0
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I know this threat is being beaten to death. And I know multiple recommendations have been made thoruhgout this thread. I am currently tired of doing ICF 5x5. I don't feel like I'm making progress. Maybe I need to eat more, but the main thing is that I'm BORED and i HATE spending 1.5 hours in the gym, and I feel a lack of growth in the muscles that I really need to see grow (specifically shoulders and arms).
Can anyone (for once and for all) point me to good routines that will help me with the following, that I can follow to a T (assuming i eat the right amount of calories).
Build muscle
Take about an hour to complete
Routines like SS and SL don't very appeal to me, because of their lack of volume. But maybe lack of volume is what i need? I don't want to go to super heavy powerlifiting routines either, because, maybe naively, my main goal is to grow. I KNOW that STRENGTH = SIZE but I do not want to train specifcally for STRENGTH alone.
Hopefully I can take the final feedback and apply for the next few months.0 -
Strength does not equal size, but having strength makes building size more efficient.
I've given you a few suggestions waaaaay back towards the beginning. At this point you want to be spoon fed. People like you fail. The final advice anyone should have for you is to go learn and put some hard hours in at the gym week after week. At this point you will either sink or swim. If you sink it means you need to learn more.0 -
PHAT, PHUL, HST, Candito Linear, countless other programs you can find via quick google search for programs...
Also, on the page before this you were complaining about the amount of volume for ICF. Now you're saying that SS or SL don't give enough volume. So... ?0
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